Homemade PBW Recipe

[TexasWine]

So here's my shopping list. Total is $92.15 for 32 pounds. $2.55/lb

Is this all I need?

EDTA: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07662XW35/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Sodium Percarbonate: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GP6S0H8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Sodium Metasilicate: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075ZDFYK1/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[IslandLizard]

So here's my shopping list. Total is $92.15 for 32 pounds. $2.55/lb

Is this all I need?

EDTA: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07662XW35/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Sodium Percarbonate: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GP6S0H8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Sodium Metasilicate: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075ZDFYK1/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I checked your links, yeah, that's it.
Well done!

For comparison, we buy 50# buckets of PBW at our group grain buy and they run $3.89 per pound. That's about as good as it gets for us homebrewers.

Now 32 pounds is a lot, that will last you many, many years. I use about 1-2 pounds a year, but I'm frugal with it.

Don't mix it all at once, heat and moisture absorption are the enemy of the Percarbonate, it starts to decompose into Oxygen and Washing Soda.
Those bags it comes in look great for longer term storage. Vacuum seal once they're mixed? Store those in a sealed bucket in a cool and dry place.

 

[TexasWine]

I checked your links, yeah, that's it.
Well done!

For comparison, we buy 50# buckets of PBW at our group grain buy and they run $3.89 per pound. That's about as good as it gets for us homebrewers.

Now 32 pounds is a lot, that will last you many, many years. I use about 1-2 pounds a year, but I'm frugal with it.

Don't mix it all at once, heat and moisture absorption are the enemy of the Percarbonate, it starts to decompose into Oxygen and Washing Soda.
Those bags it comes in look great for longer term storage. Vacuum seal once they're mixed? Store those in a sealed bucket in a cool and dry place.

Good advice! Since the bags are in 5 lb increments, I can mix a little at a time and keep the others sealed. Unfortunately, I'm not quite as frugal as you are with its use. I go though about 10 lbs a year. I might see if anyone local wants to divvy it up with me.

 

[IslandLizard]

Good advice! Since the bags are in 5 lb increments, I can mix a little at a time and keep the others sealed. Unfortunately, I'm not quite as frugal as you are with its use. I go though about 10 lbs a year. I might see if anyone local wants to divvy it up with me.

Tight lidded jars or containers would work, but yeah, I still wouldn't mix 32 pounds all at once. That amount got you set for 3 years then.

I reuse a lot of it, as I find the oxygen action overrated, and get plenty of cleaning action from the leftover components. I usually clean 4-6 kegs at a time, so they're standing in line for their respective PBW treatment. I heat the solution up in between when needed. I really should build that keg washer.

Every few brews I recirculate PBW through my (heated) kettle, hoses, pump, and (previously baked) plate chiller. For that I make a rather strong solution and add some Lye (NaOH) to it. One won't believe how dark brown that liquid gets.

Glad to finally see someone on this thread compounding the real PBW instead of cutting it with a load of table salt.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Is it effective in hard water without the chelates?

I use a converted dishwasher, for cleaning kegs and carboy's, with said mixture.

I have super hard water, and I run the water feed for the washer, through a whole house sized carbon filter, before the washer, and no worries of the mineral content.

 

[Jambro64]

I use a converted dishwasher, for cleaning kegs and carboy's, with said mixture.

I have super hard water, and I run the water feed for the washer, through a whole house sized carbon filter, before the washer, and no worries of the mineral content.

A carbon filter doesn't filter anything but chlorine for taste. It will still be just as hard. I use all three items in the original recipe and it always works great. I do have a water softener though and usually use that water for cleaning kegs and carboys. My brewing kettle usually gets straight well water.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

A carbon filter doesn't filter anything but chlorine for taste. It will still be just as hard. I use all three items in the original recipe and it always works great. I do have a water softener though and usually use that water for cleaning kegs and carboys. My brewing kettle usually gets straight well water.

Hmmm.....

Says on the filter box, " removes minerals and chlorine....."

That said, with the filter, I get no precipitation, ( I think it is called), of minerals when using the mixture, which does happen if I use water sans the filter.

Said water also keeps my Star San from clouding up over the course of about an hour.

Could be magic, I reckon.......

 

[processhead]

Hmmm.....

Says on the filter box, " removes minerals and chlorine....."

That said, with the filter, I get no precipitation, ( I think it is called), of minerals when using the mixture, which does happen if I use water sans the filter.

Said water also keeps my Star San from clouding up over the course of about an hour.

Could be magic, I reckon.......

Two types of minerals in water, soluble and insoluble. Dissolved minerals will go straight through a carbon filter. Suspended solids of all types, include sand and silt, which are technically minerals, will not pass through a tight filter.

Hard water will often be high in soluble minerals

 

[Jambro64]

Two types of minerals in water, soluble and insoluble. Dissolved minerals will go straight through a carbon filter. Suspended solids of all types, include sand and silt, which are technically minerals, will not pass through a tight filter.

Hard water will often be high in soluble minerals

Thank you @processhead The only way to remove soluble minerals is a positive charged transfer filter, your basic water softener.
Still the recipe with or without the dishwasher detergent is still a great recipe and works great. So thankful for the OP and being able to buy the recipe so much cheaper.

 

[stamandster]

Btw, Walmart in my area (New England, Western Mass) has Sunnyside TSP free (meta-silicate) for about $4/lb and it's in the paint section.

40oz box 7th Gen = $6.16
3.5 lb Oxy = $7.99
2lb TSP free = $8

So roughly $23 total (only using 20oz of the 7th gen) comes out to 6.75lb and $3/lb.

Northernbrewer = 4lb @ $34
MoreBeer = 4lb @ $27
Norcal Solutions = 4lb @ $26
Rebel Brewer = 4lb @ $26
Brewhardware = 4lb @ $26
Ritebrew = 4lb @ $23
ritebrew = 4lb refill @ $16 (by far the best option if going for actual PBW @ $4/lb)

 

[trevelynzx]

Okay, so i followed the recipe on this thread. put this through my CIP ball at about 150f for 40 min. still crud stuck on the inside of my Unitank. disappointed, but not sure that it’s this solutions fault. however, it doesn’t seem as caustic as PBW. any advice?

 

[TexasWine]

however, it doesn’t seem as caustic as PBW.

What do you mean by this?

 

[schematix]

Okay, so i followed the recipe on this thread. put this through my CIP ball at about 150f for 40 min. still crud stuck on the inside of my Unitank. disappointed, but not sure that it’s this solutions fault. however, it doesn’t seem as caustic as PBW. any advice?

which version recipe? there are several posted. did you make it exactly or did you sub any ingredients?

Have you used the spray ball with brand name PBW @ 150F before successfully?

 

[olie]

I know this is an old thread, but Sun Oxygen Cleaner seems to be discontinued. Does anyone have an updated recipe with today's available products?

Thanks!

 

[Stealthcruiser]

I use "Family Dollar" Oxy stain remover........Same ratio,( 70%-30%).

That's the brand I've used for 3 plus years now.

 

[olie]

I use "Family Dollar" Oxy stain remover........Same ratio,( 70%-30%).

I'm from a different area, but it looks to me like "Family Dollar" is a store chain (perhaps like The Dollar Store in my neighborhood?) and, when I Google "Family Dollar Oxy Stain Remover", I get a lot of hits for "OxyClean".

Is that the brand you use? Or something else?

Thanks!

 

[schematix]

Okay, so i followed the recipe on this thread. put this through my CIP ball at about 150f for 40 min. still crud stuck on the inside of my Unitank. disappointed, but not sure that it’s this solutions fault. however, it doesn’t seem as caustic as PBW. any advice?

Does your unitank have a coil or is it jacketed?

What kind of pump are you using?

Have you been successful with the same technique with real PBW?

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

Following

 

[Stealthcruiser]

I'm from a different area, but it looks to me like "Family Dollar" is a store chain (perhaps like The Dollar Store in my neighborhood?) and, when I Google "Family Dollar Oxy Stain Remover", I get a lot of hits for "OxyClean".

Is that the brand you use? Or something else?

Thanks!

I use "Family Dollar" Oxy stain remover".


Check the "Dollar Store" in your 'hood, they should offer similar.

I prefer unscented, But I hear people say it doesn't matter........To them.




Yes, from "Family Dollar" stores.
"

 

[jtratcliff]

Scented or unscented doesn't matter for stainless or glass, but unscented only for plastic!

I cleaned a stainless thermos bottle and it's plastic lid with regular scented oxiclean, and it took FOREVER for that perfume smell to dissipate off that lid... It even overpowered the smell of coffee!

As for cheap oxi check your Kroger-owned super markets (Kroger, Ralphs, Food 4 Less)... The Kroger HomeSense Brand (photos posted upthread) is consistently under $4 for a 3.5lb tub

I also just scored some All Oxi laundy booster on sale for $2.99 / 3.5 lb tub at a nearby Ralph's... YMMV.

As long as the ingredient label list Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Percarbonate, you're good to go...

 

[olie]

The thing about the original (modified/updated ) recipe is: proportions matter. And I was unable to find what the %s were of Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Percarbonate in OxyClean (or any of the other Oxy cleaners, for that matter).

"As long as the ingredients are Hydrogen & Oxygen, you'll probably mix-up some water. Probably."

 

[jtratcliff]

https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=15010001
https://www.ahprofessional.com/_downloads/sds/SDS OxiClean Versatile Stain Remover.pdf

30-50% Sodium Carbonate
50-70% Sodium Percarbonate

 

[olie]

Ah, thanks! (Leave it to the rocket scientist to know where to find this info... )

 

[S-Met]

So here's my shopping list. Total is $92.15 for 32 pounds. $2.55/lb

Is this all I need?

EDTA: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07662XW35/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Sodium Percarbonate: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GP6S0H8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Sodium Metasilicate: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075ZDFYK1/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

You link is for disodium EDTA. That works best in acidic environments. Tetrasodium EDTA works better in basic environments like pbw. If its not too late, chose this one

Tetrasodium EDTA 5 lb bulk Water Softener Chelating agent Sequester metal ions https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRUPZ1Z/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[schematix]

Cost was same as DIY per lb.

 

[TexasWine]

View attachment 582271

Cost was same as DIY per lb.

I haven't been able to find it cheaper than $2.55/lb. Where'd you get it?

 

[MX1]

so what is the new and correct ratio fro this stuff

 

[S-Met]

View attachment 582271

Cost was same as DIY per lb.

Only real with a link and a price.

 

[TexasWine]

You link is for disodium EDTA. That works best in acidic environments. Tetrasodium EDTA works better in basic environments like pbw. If its not too late, chose this one

Tetrasodium EDTA 5 lb bulk Water Softener Chelating agent Sequester metal ions https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRUPZ1Z/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Spent a great deal of time wearing out my thumbs typing a response to your post above. Unfortunately the app crashed, so here goes round two.

Unfortunately, yes, it is too late. I've already purchased all the ingredients and mixed them.

But a curious thing happened when I mixed them all. I used a ratio of 2.5:1 percarbonate: metasilicate, along with about 1% EDTA. Put it all in an old fermentation bucket, put the lid on, and rolled it around on the floor to mix it up. Then I put it in a dog food container with a loose fitting lid. The next morning I woke up to an angry, gurgling mess that spewed a white vapor cloud at me when I opened the lid of the container. The container was hot to the touch as well. It was having some sort of runaway chemical reaction.

So I did what seemed reasonable at the time. I donned my fire retardant overalls, put on my chemical resistant goggles, slipped on my silicone gloves, and lugged it down the stairs to the driveway. There, from a safe distance, I shot it with the water hose and filled it with water.

So for all you chemistry nerds out there, any suspects as to what might have happened? I just flushed a whole bunch of money down the drain.

 

[schematix]

I haven't been able to find it cheaper than $2.55/lb. Where'd you get it?

LHBS.

I can’t buy all of the DIY ingredients locally so by the time I pay shipping on them it makes it almost the same price per lb as the bucket.

DIY is marginally cheaper but in my experience it wasn’t quite as good as the real stuff and it was a bit of a hassle to mix. Now when you’re comparing $8/lb PBW in small portions vs $3-4/lb DIY, it’s no brainer to do DIY. But I got this for under $4 while my DIY price was about $3.50.

 

[Bilsch]

I've noticed that the metasilicate is quite hygroscopic and I have to store it with molecular sieve dry packs to keep it a powder. Anyway it is possible that the moisture that came with that started the decomposition of the percarbonate to the carbonate and peroxide. Then the peroxide decomposes into oxygen and water but this rxn gives off considerable heat. Your escaping cloud was most likely O2.

 

[TexasWine]

I've noticed that the metasilicate is quite hygroscopic and I have to store it with molecular sieve dry packs to keep it a powder. Anyway it is possible that the moisture that came with that started the decomposition of the percarbonate to the carbonate and peroxide. Then the peroxide decomposes into oxygen and water but this rxn gives off considerable heat. Your escaping cloud was most likely O2.

I've thought about that, but the thing is the metasilicate was stored in a bag that was simply folded over and taped shut. I had been storing it in my garage until I mixed it, at which point I brought it into my temp controlled pantry. I would have thought it would have been completely exposed to as much moisture as possible sitting in the garage for two summer months in Houston.

 

[S-Met]

Spent a great deal of time wearing out my thumbs typing a response to your post above. Unfortunately the app crashed, so here goes round two.

Unfortunately, yes, it is too late. I've already purchased all the ingredients and mixed them.

But a curious thing happened when I mixed them all. I used a ratio of 2.5:1 percarbonate: metasilicate, along with about 1% EDTA. Put it all in an old fermentation bucket, put the lid on, and rolled it around on the floor to mix it up. Then I put it in a dog food container with a loose fitting lid. The next morning I woke up to an angry, gurgling mess that spewed a white vapor cloud at me when I opened the lid of the container. The container was hot to the touch as well. It was having some sort of runaway chemical reaction.

So I did what seemed reasonable at the time. I donned my fire retardant overalls, put on my chemical resistant goggles, slipped on my silicone gloves, and lugged it down the stairs to the driveway. There, from a safe distance, I shot it with the water hose and filled it with water.

So for all you chemistry nerds out there, any suspects as to what might have happened? I just flushed a whole bunch of money down the drain.

Not 100% on this response, but since you used Disodium EDTA wich is intended for acidic conditions, my assumption is that it reacted with what moisture was in the air and the basic solution began to react to equilibrium.

I haven't done the chemical equation balancing, but probably just O2 and CO2 gas provide you only added the ingredients that you mentioned. Sometimes humidity is enough to start the reaction.

 

[TexasWine]

Not 100% on this response, but since you used Disodium EDTA wich is intended for acidic conditions, my assumption is that it reacted with what moisture was in the air and the basic solution began to react to equilibrium.

I haven't done the chemical equation balancing, but probably just O2 and CO2 gas provide you only added the ingredients that you mentioned. Sometimes humidity is enough to start the reaction.

So how does 5 Star keep it from doing what mine did?

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Not a clue on the stability question..........I use it in a modified dishwasher, and add separately...........The two compartments in the door........One looks about 70%, the other about 30%, were you to look @ the whole mass of product.

 

[S-Met]

Again, only my chem background from 17 years ago:

Using Tetrasodium EDTA is basic and should not react when mixed as dry ingredients to the other basic ingredients.

I haven't made the blend yet so I cannot promise. But was going to order the base chemicals and blend. Currently, I use Oxiclean for moderate-heavy cleaning. For heavy cleaning, I mix oxiclean and tsp @ 4:1 ratio.

And for your readng pleasure, I reference this article: https://www.essind.com/carpet-care/the-chemistry-of-cleaning/#Chelating

 

[TexasWine]

Again, only my chem background from 17 years ago:

Using Tetrasodium EDTA is basic and should not react when mixed as dry ingredients to the other basic ingredients.

I haven't made the blend yet so I cannot promise. But was going to order the base chemicals and blend. Currently, I use Oxiclean for moderate-heavy cleaning. For heavy cleaning, I mix oxiclean and tsp @ 4:1 ratio.

And for your readng pleasure, I reference this article: https://www.essind.com/carpet-care/the-chemistry-of-cleaning/#Chelating

Let us know how it turns out. I've got the ingredients added to my cart, again, but with the exception of tetrasodium EDTA instead of the disodium. If you have positive results, I'll still be at $100 for 36 lb, $2.78/lb, with some leftover EDTA.

 

[Bilsch]

So how does 5 Star keep it from doing what mine did?

Could be as simple as specifying low moisture content in the feed stock but it's just a guess.

 

[Steve Ocker]

Exactly! Just buy a 96 oz tub of Sun Oxygen Cleaner, a 4 lb bag of Red Devil TSP/90, and a 45 oz box of 7th Generation Dish-washing Detergent, and mix them together in a bucket. You can even use the scoop that comes with the Sun Oxygen Cleaner!

Is this still the recipe for the brewery wash? Thanks!

 

[tld6008]

Is this still the recipe for the brewery wash? Thanks!

Its one of them. Many use the first two items in a 70/30 by weight ratio. That's what I do and its works very well. Although if I run across the 3rd item I will try that addition next time I need to mix a batch.