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Homemade PBW Recipe

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chrilr

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25# of Percarbonate is 50$ on Amazon, you can get 50# for 50$ at some chemical supply houses. Looking to make 150-200# of finished product

I just made 36# for 90$ and was looking to go bigger
 

Gozie Boy

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Excellent! I'll give this a try soon.
I recently tried the 3 mil "bag mixer" technique and best I can tell it seems to work pretty well. I shook, tossed, rotated the bag in 2-3 minute intervals, probably 10-12 minutes in total. No easy way of being sure if this is an effective poor boy way of mixing the ingredients since they all look the same, but I'm at a loss of a better way to mix.

BTW, I also used this purer form of percarbonate (search Amazon for "Sodium Percarbonate UNCOATED 99% Min. Purity 25lb"). It's a lot cheaper per pound of percarbonate than Oxiclean. And since this is almost pure Percarbonate, you do not need as much as you would use with OxiClean (adjust your percentages accordingly).
 

FswBG

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Anyone know what types of companies have Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Metasilicate. I looked around my area and it looks like I can only get a pallet or 55 gallon drum of them.
Looking to buy 50 to 100 pounds locally but having a hard time. 50# of Percarbonate shipped is over 100$ for me

Carpet cleaners? Dry cleaners?

Thanks guys
I order from makeyourown.buzz
Great selection, descriptions, and pricing.
Only thing I have to purchase separately is the TSP90 which I order from Amazon.
 

Craiginthecorn

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You want larger quantities than the recipe which includes Oxiclean, 7th Generation Dishwashing powder, and Red Devil TSP/90?
 

chrilr

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Anyone know what types of companies have Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Metasilicate. I looked around my area and it looks like I can only get a pallet or 55 gallon drum of them.
Looking to buy 50 to 100 pounds locally but having a hard time. 50# of Percarbonate shipped is over 100$ for me

Carpet cleaners? Dry cleaners?

Thanks guys
This
 

FswBG

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To my knowledge, those dry cleaners and other companies pay distributers and you would need to work out a deal with them if they'd be willing to cut you in. The makeyourown website I referenced estimated shipping of 50# Sodium Metabisulfite for 26$.
 

chrilr

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To my knowledge, those dry cleaners and other companies pay distributers and you would need to work out a deal with them if they'd be willing to cut you in. The makeyourown website I referenced estimated shipping of 50# Sodium Metabisulfite for 26$.
Looks like the only chemical they sell is tetrasodium edta. I was looking for Metasilicate and Percarbonate, it would take a lifetime to use 50# of metabisulfite
 

dlutter

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metasilicate (only if you're cleaning aluminum), and some surfactant (jet dry, unfragranced Dawn, whatever).


What do I use? My company's knock-off of PBW (ours doesn't have metasilicate in it) for most things. For really bad cleaning jobs in my home brewery, I bring out the big dogs (the potassium hydroxide-based stuff).
What does metasilicate do only with aluminum that it doesn't do for other things?

BLC is KOH based. Would that be appropriate in special circumstances? It's probably too expensive for routine use.
 

kdw2pd

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This thread was a major help! Had a brew day the other day, and realized I was totally out of PBW for cleaning. My LHBS is about an hour away, so that was a no-go. However, between Ace for TSP/90 and a grocery store for some Oxiclean Free, it worked beautifully. Rather than mixing them in a bucket and dealing with unevenness there, I assumed the 1oz/gallon ratio mentioned earlier in the thread, and did 73%Oxi/23% TSP90/3% Citric Acid, since I had that on hand. Worked beautifully for cleaning up kettles, elements, and plate chiller.

Do most folks using the DIY version add it at about 1oz/gallon?
 

IslandLizard

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I see that a lot of people use Red Devil TSP 90 which I don't see available locally. Are there any concerns with using the product below?

Product link
https://www.menards.com/main/paint/...ute-cleaner/64164/p-1444444207124-c-19343.htm

Technical data sheet
https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/SUNNY001/Prod_Tech_Spec/641ProductDataSheet.pdf
From that sheet:
Ingredient: Sodium Meta-Silicate
Percent: 80-100%
So yup, close enough!
At that price it sounds really good, as RedDevil's TSP/90 ran $17 for 4#, at ACE a few years ago.

Now RedDevil TSP/90 contains 100% Metasilicate:
https://content.interlinebrands.com/product/document/10135/441505_SDS_E.pdf

If you feel the need, maybe use 35% instead of 30% of Sunnyside Metasilicate to aim toward the middle (~90%) of its reported contents range. I doubt you'd notice the difference, though.
 

Lax coach

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I see that a lot of people use Red Devil TSP 90 which I don't see available locally. Are there any concerns with using the product below?

Product link
https://www.menards.com/main/paint/...ute-cleaner/64164/p-1444444207124-c-19343.htm

Technical data sheet
https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/SUNNY001/Prod_Tech_Spec/641ProductDataSheet.pdf
As others have said, you absolutely can use this. I've also had excellent results using real TSP rather than Sodium Metasilicate.
 

limitedbwr

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As others have said, you absolutely can use this. I've also had excellent results using real TSP rather than Sodium Metasilicate.
Yup, my last batch of DIY PBW I couldn't find TSP90 so I got some regular TSP (cheaper also).
 

Bilsch

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I've tried it both ways many times and while the regular TSP will work, it's not nearly as good as the metasilicate. I still have 10 pounds of the phosphate I'll never use.
 

kondi

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I can not find powdered sodium metasilicate in my country, only sodium silicate solution called "waterglass" or "liquid glass". Can I use this solution as a substitute for TSP/90 in the recipe? How does it affect the ratios? Especially as this is in liquid form... The concentration level is quite dense, 38/39 Be° (Baumé scale).
 

S-Met

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I can not find powdered sodium metasilicate in my country, only sodium silicate solution called "waterglass" or "liquid glass". Can I use this solution as a substitute for TSP/90 in the recipe? How does it affect the ratios? Especially as this is in liquid form... The concentration level is quite dense, 38/39 Be° (Baumé scale).
Do you have access to TriSodium Phosphate? (Original TSP, not TSP-90?) If so, use it 1:1 substitute.
 

kondi

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Do you have access to TriSodium Phosphate? (Original TSP, not TSP-90?) If so, use it 1:1 substitute.
Yes. However, the comment just before mine is not really convincing ("it's not nearly as good as the metasilicate")... Also, wherever I read the recipe, it's always emphasized to use TSP/90 and not the original TSP. I hoped somebody has enough chemics background to give tips for solution substitution.

Btw, I have found a commercial dishwasher detergent powder which says the following:
Product declaration
Silicate >30%
Citrate >30%
Sodium percarbonate 5–15%
Sodium carbonate 5–15%

List of ingredients as per EC 648/2004
Sodium silicate, sodium citrate, sodium percarbonate, sodium carbonate, sodium metasilicate

Origin and properties of the ingredients
Silicates are obtained by fusing sand with sodium carbonate and, thanks to their alkalinity, are capable of modifying grease on dishes by saponification, thus making it water-soluble. These silicates make stuck-on food leftovers swell, thus loosening them. Sodium carbonate, manufactured from common salt and lime, disperses the grease into fine droplets, thus supporting the fat-dissolving property of the silicates. Citrate, obtained by fermenting sugar-containing by-products such as molasses, is added to the dishwasher detergent in order to bind lime in the dishwashing water and to protect the machine from deposits, since it is a well-known fact that many dishwashers do not soften the water sufficiently, despite built-in ion exchanger (water softener devices).
Maybe this could be used as a direct replacement for PBW?
 

S-Met

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Yes. However, the comment just before mine is not really convincing ("it's not nearly as good as the metasilicate")... Also, wherever I read the recipe, it's always emphasized to use TSP/90 and not the original TSP. I hoped somebody has enough chemics background to give tips for solution substitution.

Btw, I have found a commercial dishwasher detergent powder which says the following:


Maybe this could be used as a direct replacement for PBW?
I have had the opposite results of what @Bilsch mentions, TSP>TSP90. However, either will work, and both will work well. My formula, back several pages is approx 2:1 percarbonate:TSP and approx 2-4% EDTA4NA as a chelating agent.

I forget the deciding factor, but TSP vs 90, one works better depending on the hardness of your water.

And quite honestly, for majority of my cleaning, percarbonate alone is more than sufficient.
 

kondi

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I have had the opposite results of what @Bilsch mentions, TSP>TSP90. However, either will work, and both will work well. My formula, back several pages is approx 2:1 percarbonate:TSP and approx 2-4% EDTA4NA as a chelating agent.

I forget the deciding factor, but TSP vs 90, one works better depending on the hardness of your water.

And quite honestly, for majority of my cleaning, percarbonate alone is more than sufficient.
Thank you, I will give a try to TSP then. But I don't have any source for EDTA4NA neither :(

My water is quite hard, plain percarbonate alone leaves me white layer and cleaning was not perfect for everything. I have read that PBW helps for both, I wanted to try, but it's not distributed in my country.
 

kdw2pd

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I've used the 73/23/3 OxiClean Free/TSP90/citric acid ratio. It works quite well, but does leave a filmy residue that is a pain to get off. Before trying to scroll through this beast of a thread, does anyone have a suggestion for a ratio or ingredients that don't leave a film?
 

IslandLizard

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I've used the 73/23/3 OxiClean Free/TSP90/citric acid ratio.
What puzzles me is why would anyone add an acid (citric acid) to a fairly strong alkaline solution? :tank:

It's a total waste of citric acid, IMO. Although it's a relatively small amount, it counteracts some of the alkalinity, which provides the cleaning power.
 

kdw2pd

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I thought I remembered it being suggested as a chelating agent. Re-reading the beginning of this thread, I'll go snag some 7th Gen instead.
 

S-Met

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What puzzles me is why would anyone add an acid (citric acid) to a fairly strong alkaline solution? :tank:

It's a total waste of citric acid, IMO. Although it's a relatively small amount, it counteracts some of the alkalinity, which provides the cleaning power.
Let me start by saying that I have not balanced the equation to verify my argument, not do I have any intention as I do not add citric acid for the reason mentioned by @IslandLizard .
Arguably, this is not an issue while anhydrous, but in solution, the citric acid will neutralize some of the base potentially increasing oxygenation.
 
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For those of you who have homebrew clubs/people who might be interested in splitting a bulk buy of DIY-PBW, I just mixed up a ~140# batch for ~$1.5/#. Ordered bulk chemicals off ebay/amazon. Everything was within the prescribed ratios/etc. What I mixed up:

6 x 75oz 7th Generation Dish Powder ($35.94)
2 x 20# Sodium Percarbonate ($75.98)
1 x 30# Sodium Metasilicate ($60)
1 x 40# Sodium Carbonate ($33.96)

Total: ~138# for $206, or ~$1.49/#
Thanks for this reply existing...

I read the entire thread since I had not made this in a few years and wanted to use bulk chemical company products (bell chem) for some of it. I did not see a spreadsheet anywhere, so I made one for bulk chemicals with 7th gen added My spreadsheet is shared on google drive with a link to the above post in it.


1593374901503.png
 

awoitte

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For someone who knows nothing about mixing chemicals/products I have two questions for making the mentioned batch below:

1) What's the safety precautions for this, same as PBW? My understanding is definitely where eye protection and gloves. If a little gets on my skin is it terrible, or should I be fine rinsing off in the shower later the same day?

2) Do you mix all of this together at once, or will that create storage/long term usage issues?

6 x 75oz 7th Generation Dish Powder ($35.94)
2 x 20# Sodium Percarbonate ($75.98)
1 x 30# Sodium Metasilicate ($60)
1 x 40# Sodium Carbonate ($33.96)
 

IslandLizard

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For someone who knows nothing about mixing chemicals/products I have two questions for making the mentioned batch below:

1) What's the safety precautions for this, same as PBW? My understanding is definitely where eye protection and gloves. If a little gets on my skin is it terrible, or should I be fine rinsing off in the shower later the same day?

2) Do you mix all of this together at once, or will that create storage/long term usage issues?

6 x 75oz 7th Generation Dish Powder ($35.94)
2 x 20# Sodium Percarbonate ($75.98)
1 x 30# Sodium Metasilicate ($60)
1 x 40# Sodium Carbonate ($33.96)
o_O How much do you envision you're gonna use, in say, over the next year?
I would not premix any more than that.

For reference, I brew fairly often and it takes me well over a year to use up 2 pounds of homemade PBW (70% (Oxi) / 30% TSP-90) ...
I also recover and reuse some PBW solutions for future usage.
 

awoitte

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o_O How much do you envision you're gonna use, in say, over the next year?
I would not premix any more than that.

For reference, I brew fairly often and it takes me well over a year to use up 2 pounds of homemade PBW (70% (Oxi) / 30% TSP-90) ...
I also recover and reuse some PBW solutions for future usage.
I don't plan on mixing that, just the same percentages. But I do plan on buying more bulk, as its a pain to constantly order and mix. Hence my question related to long(er) term storage - 6+ months -.
 

IslandLizard

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I don't plan on mixing that, just the same percentages. But I do plan on buying more bulk, as its a pain to constantly order and mix. Hence my question related to long(er) term storage - 6+ months -.
Sure, buy larger amounts for the price breaks, save on shipping. Split with some fellow brewers or a club.

If you can keep the ingredients cool, and more importantly, very dry, you can keep them for many years. Reseal the original bags and containers well, and store the bags in well-sealable buckets for good measure.

I'd mix a year's supply worth, say 1-2 pounds. Put some of that in a handy, well sealing container for regular use. The rest, your reserve, in a well sealable plastic bag, placed inside a well sealing jar or small sealable bucket. Moisture is the enemy, as it clumps the stuff (some is moderately hygroscopic) and may degrade the percarbonate (releasing the loosely bound O2).
 

IslandLizard

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In all fairness, my homemade PBW is very simple:
70% Oxiclean Free
30% TSP/90

You could add some EDTA if you think it's needed or beneficial.

My water is fairly soft, not much else is needed. I sometimes add a little lye for extra oomph.
 

awoitte

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In all fairness, my homemade PBW is very simple:
70% Oxiclean Free
30% TSP/90

You could add some EDTA if you think it's needed or beneficial.

My water is fairly soft, not much else is needed. I sometimes add a little lye for extra oomph.
How much (oz or grams) do you add to a typical cleaning for say a 5-10 gallon conical CIP setup?
 

IslandLizard

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How much (oz or grams) do you add to a typical cleaning for say a 5-10 gallon conical CIP setup?
I don't have a CIP, but I regularly recirculate 2-3 gallons of near boiling hot "homemade 70/30" PBW (with some lye added) from my boil kettle, through the pump, hoses and plate chiller, back through the whirlpool port, for a few hours. Now the equipment is already pre-rinsed and mostly clean in that regard.
I use 2 Tablespoons per gallon, that's strong!

If it's a clean, reclaimed solution, I may add a Tbsp/gallon of Oxiclean Free to it, for the extra Oxygen.

The O2 component dissipates after a while, but the hot solution's cleaning ability remains potent as is.
 

S-Met

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I’m buying 4 pounds PBW twice a year. How can you guys manage to use so little?
If I only used 8lb/year, I wouldn't bother diy, I'd just buy it. I think I use somewhere around 25-40lb/yr. But I use it for things besides brewing. I alter proportions depending on what I'm cleaning.
 
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