Home brew Vs. Commercial

[cruckin78]

I think part of the issue is the definition of "commercial beer". To a lot of people, it means BMC. To me, it's Rochefort. Now, when you can brew a better beer than Rochefort, let me know.

I'm workin on it man! But I have not been brewing for several hundred year either lol

Myself and SpanishCastleAle are two of the ones doing it wrong. I think we have something like 10 of the 840 NHC second round entries between us. If we are doing it wrong, we don't want to do it right.

Dude, i'm not trying to have a "who has a bigger Johnson" competition here...I have my opinion you have yours, but do not think you are the only ones here who's beers have done well at competition.

 

[remilard]

Dude, i'm not trying to have a "who has a bigger Johnson" competition here...I have my opinion you have yours, but do not think you are the only ones here who's beers have done well at competition.

Me either. I just thought you might like some background on the people you say are doing it wrong.

 

[brewit2it]

I make good beer but can buy great beer. I enjoy the process though so I will continue drinking good beer until it becomes better or great beer.

I agree fully. There is no way I make beer better than the best (my favorite) breweries. They have a huge advantages. I've tried a lot of homebrew over the years and some is pretty darn good, but I don't think I've ever had any as good as Anchor, or SN, or Stone, or Anderson Valley, or etc....

But I make some pretty good beer. I have friends tell me how great it is but a lot of that is the fact that it is draft (which is impressive and tastes better IMHO), and they are impressed with the fact that I made it. Most homebrew has flaws and I know mine does, but I love the hobby and the beer is better than just drinkable so I continue to brew (and drink).

 

[Denny]

As far as I'm concerned, if I can't brew as good as any craft brewer then I'm doing something wrong or I just don't have the knowledge. Knowledge can always be gained. If I'm not brewing then studing about or planning how to brew.

The day one of my finished recipes taste worse that a beer from a brewery is the day I'll quite brewing!

Arrogance. Send me one of your beers and let's see.

 

[Denny]

Give me another year or so and I'll take that challange! I'm working on perfecting my Trappist style ales right now. In fact as was just reading up on this morning. Rochefort 10 is one of my target brews.

Man, I've brewed over 400 batches of beer, a lot of which have been Rochefort clones. Some of those have been VERY good. But n one of them have been anywhere near as good as the real thing. I've been brewing for 14 years and still can't hit it and you think you;re gonna do it in a year?

 

[TotemWolf]

Man, I've brewed over 400 batches of beer, a lot of which have been Rochefort clones. Some of those have been VERY good. But n one of them have been anywhere near as good as the real thing. I've been brewing for 14 years and still can't hit it and you think you;re gonna do it in a year?

What was water profile? How many steps in your infusion? Did you buy your from the same malters? Do you use the same Belguim and German sugars that they use? So on and so forth. I've been studing their brew for over a year now. I'll brew my first batch later this fall.

I'm not trying to say I'm better than you or anyone else. The fact of the matter is if you devote yourself to perfecting something you will. It's that simple. That's all I'm saying.

 

[remilard]

What was water profile? How many steps in your infusion? Did you buy your from the same malters? Do you use the same Belguim and German sugars that they use? So on and so forth. I've been studing their brew for over a year now. I'll brew my first batch later this fall.

I'm not trying to say I'm better than you or anyone else. The fact of the matter is if you devote yourself to perfecting something you will. It's that simple. That's all I'm saying.

I think it is more that if your bar for perfect is very low, you'll perceive yourself as perfect more readily.

Maybe you are some ninja brewer. Everyone benches 300 on the internet though.

 

[Nightbiker]

I wouldn't say mine are better than any commercial offerings. I LIKE mine more -but part of that is because I made it, and I made what I was in the mood to drink. I cannot match the consistency of the 'big boys' though, and that is something I strive for.
I have made some very good beers, and I've made some that were at least drinkable (and one that was akin to carbonated pond water) I have been told that some of my brews were favorable to top-shelf offerings. I take that as a high compliment (or maybe they just wanted more beer). I have the option of brewing whatever I feel like brewing, with fresh ingredients and even home-grown hops. Commercial guys can't really get away with that kind of flexibility.

 

[scottland]

FACT: Most people believe their homebrew is better than it really is. One of the reasons why many people are discouraged when they enter competitions, they think they have a Best of Show beer, and they find out it's just 'Average' or 'Good'.

Now I'll follow that up with saying: There is some fantastic homebrewed beer out there. There are plenty of brewers that REALLY know what they are doing, and make some great beer.

But no, I don't feel the average homebrewed beer is better than the average commerical beer. The other problem with this argument, is which commerical beer are you comparing to? Do I think my pale ale is better than ________ pale ale? Well it acutally might be. It depends on which commercial pale ale we're talking about. Is my pale ale better than the best commercial pale ale on the market? I doubt it.

 

[Homebrewtastic]

FACT: Most people believe their homebrew is better than it really is. One of the reasons why many people are discouraged when they enter competitions, they think they have a Best of Show beer, and they find out it's just 'Average' or 'Good'.

Now I'll follow that up with saying: There is some fantastic homebrewed beer out there. There are plenty of brewers that REALLY know what they are doing, and make some great beer.

But no, I don't feel the average homebrewed beer is better than the average commerical beer. The other problem with this argument, is which commerical beer are you comparing to? Do I think my pale ale is better than ________ pale ale? Well it acutally might be. It depends on which commercial pale ale we're talking about. Is my pale ale better than the best commercial pale ale on the market? I doubt it.

I agree with the competition comment to an extent. It takes a lot to do well in a competition. But there are also cases where a judges comments are somewhat irrelevant to the overall quality of the beer.

I entered a couple saisons into nationals. On one I dry hopped with Nelson Sauvin hops. The judge said "man this beer is great.... but not true to style".... So I got a 32.

Was I discouraged? No. I know that that beer was a little out there for a saison. And that it wouldn't place because it didn't taste EXACTLY like dupont. But I know that it's a great beer. Not because I made it. Not because homebrewers can't admit making imperfect beer. But because at the end of the day it was a damn good beer that I would drink anytime over dupont.

 

[wildwest450]

The fact of the matter is if you devote yourself to perfecting something you will. It's that simple. That's all I'm saying.

I have to say, I agree. You've certainly perfected the art of making an ass of yourself on the internet. Please quit while you're way behind.


_

 

[Ringmaster]

my latest batch of beer is better then any commercial brew i've had. I really love it when this happens!

 

[Denny]

What was water profile? How many steps in your infusion? Did you buy your from the same malters? Do you use the same Belguim and German sugars that they use? So on and so forth. I've been studing their brew for over a year now. I'll brew my first batch later this fall.

I'm not trying to say I'm better than you or anyone else. The fact of the matter is if you devote yourself to perfecting something you will. It's that simple. That's all I'm saying.

Similar water profile...close enough. That's something that's hard (and pointless) to worry about getting to close. Used the world fampous Herman Holtrop recipe, Belgian malts, and the same candi syrup. I understand what you're saying about practice and dedication, but there's "juju" involved, too. Here's an example...I'm pretty well known for a Rye IPA. Maybe you've heard, but that doesn't really matter. I've been given dozens (at least) versions of that beer that people have made. Not one has tasted like mine.

And to try to get back on topic a bit, like I said....maybe you can brew better beers than some commercial beers, but I don't think I've ever met a homebrewer who can brew better beers than some/all of the commercial beers out there.

 

[Denny]

my latest batch of beer is better then any commercial brew i've had. I really love it when this happens!

No offense, but that could say as much about your experience with commercial beers as your brewing skills.

 

[dancness]

Most commercial brewers cut corners to save money. You are using quality ingredients, sparing no expense to make awesome beer. Also a little TLC can go a long way when you are making something consumable from scratch. You can almost taste the effort put forth over several months in the final product.

That's the reason homebrew is better.

 

[emjay]

It's ugly baby syndrome... very few people are able to perceive their own beers honestly. It also helps that we get to drink our own beer when it's very, very, fresh, and also make it to suit our own tastes (and likewise, avoid ingredients and practices that we dislike), but for the most part it's just a mental blindspot that makes it nearly impossible for people to compare their own creations objectively.

To be able to mostly rise above this built-in bias requires a ton of hard work, dedication, and most importantly, an absolute and completely honest willingness to face the hard truth of just exactly how little all of one's time, effort, and money spent is actually amounting to. This doesn't just apply to beer, either... greatness can't really be achieved in anything as long as one continues to choose satisfied ignorance over frustrated awareness.

But as long as you're just homebrewing for yourself, there is no "right" choice, and if you can drink your own beer and feel that it's better than anything that can be bought, then it's great that you can enjoy it that much. We need to have that kind of lack of awareness in most aspects of our lives just to retain our sanity, and likewise, we need to carefully pick and choose a few - if any - for which the illusions we hold of our own capabilities are worth tearing down, in order to pursue true greatness.

 

[TotemWolf]

I have to say, I agree. You've certainly perfected the art of making an ass of yourself on the internet. Please quit while you're way behind.


_

If I am making an ass of myself, and I must be, I'm sorry. That was not my intent. Nor was it my intent to claim to be some uber-brewer. I apologize to anyone I may have offended.

My intent was to say if you go after something and try hard enough you can succeed.


Again sorry for coming off as an ass. With that I will leave this thread.

 

[Boy]

So this thread has been interesting but I guess I sucked it up on the OP.

My actual question is more along the lines of this scenario: You have a 1bbl brewery. You contract a 10bbl batch of one of your recipes. The contract batch goes through a more commercial process than your own batches on your 1BBL. If they did not taste the same, what would be the leading causes as to why?

Huge thanks for all of the replies.

 

[Yooper]

Give me another year or so and I'll take that challange! I'm working on perfecting my Trappist style ales right now. In fact as was just reading up on this morning. Rochefort 10 is one of my target brews.

Man, I've brewed over 400 batches of beer, a lot of which have been Rochefort clones. Some of those have been VERY good. But n one of them have been anywhere near as good as the real thing. I've been brewing for 14 years and still can't hit it and you think you;re gonna do it in a year?

Me either. I just thought you might like some background on the people you say are doing it wrong.

If I am making an ass of myself, and I must be, I'm sorry. That was not my intent. Nor was it my intent to claim to be some uber-brewer. I apologize to anyone I may have offended.

My intent was to say if you go after something and try hard enough you can succeed.

Again sorry for coming off as an ass. With that I will leave this thread.

Well, I have to say that one of the "problems" with the internet is the anonymity, the same reason it's great. I haven't met SpanishCastleAle in person, but I know remilard and denny.

Denny is a very "famous" brewer, and I bet you've read some of his writings. He's modest, but he's very well known in brewing circles. He's a great guy, too, who thinks I look good as a dominatrix, I believe.

Remilard is a kick-ass brewer, with a scientific approach. I've personally consumed some of his beer, and would say that his IIPA is much better than probably most commercial IIPAs.

I'm not saying that they should carry more weight! Not at all- this is a great forum and I love that we can all share. But I think to go back and forth with arguments on "I can make a beer as good as Chimay (or whatever)" is a bit silly.

For myself, I like my IPAs quite a lot and would consider most of them commercial quality. But some of my other styles need some work. I'm not great with porters or Belgians, that's for sure! I think that being able to tweak beers to my own personal liking means that I can easily suffer from "ugly baby syndrome". I may miss the marks for the style guidelines in some cases, but I don't care if I like the result! I"d make a terrible commerical brewer but I"m a decent homebrewer.

 

[brewit2it]

I think it comes down to the fact that the best beers in the world are the best beers in the world, so it is totally unrealistic to think you can sit at home with your brew pot, plastic bucket and a few sacks of grain, whip something up and say "of course mine is better, how could anyone even question me?"

It's kind of like saying "I picked a few items up at the Ralphs last night and whipped up a dinner that kicks the crap out of the tasting menu at The French Laundry. In your face Thomas Keller".

You can dedicate yourself, and certainly make better beer, but dedication alone isn't enough. I am completely satisfied knowing I can make beer I really enjoy. I am not pretentious enough to believe what I am making rivals the very best, but it is good enough for me and my friends and family to enjoy.

 

[Nightbiker]

So this thread has been interesting but I guess I sucked it up on the OP.

My actual question is more along the lines of this scenario: You have a 1bbl brewery. You contract a 10bbl batch of one of your recipes. The contract batch goes through a more commercial process than your own batches on your 1BBL. If they did not taste the same, what would be the leading causes as to why?

could be several reasons I can think of off the top of my head.
Repeatability. Making that same 1bbl batch x10 on the average homebrewers' rig would be an interesting feat. Some of these guys have a nearly automated rig, and would (in my opinion) stand the best chance of making a repeatable beer x10. My rig is not automated in the slightest, and I admit I'd have a heck of a time doing that. It would only take a few changes in any of the variables involved in brewing (not just the 'hot side' but even and especially during fermentation, packaging etc) to make one batch taste a little different than the next. This is a very bad thing for a commercial operation -the average beer drinker expects consistency -and frown all we might, fact of the matter is that even a beer novice can detect changes in flavors bottle to bottle.
Keeping everything the same, start to finish, is a daunting task and well beyond most (certainly beyond my capability) but the closer you can get to that, the more consistency you will see.
Now, when >I'M< going to brew a 'large' batch, that will be available in one sitting (like when I am bringing several kegs of brew to a motorcycle rally) I will usually blend the wort prior to pitching the yeast, and pitch the same amount of yeast per fermenter (eventually I will acquire a larger fermenter, one that will fit in my keezer and that can hold about 20 gallons) -this goes a long way toward allowing me to at least appear more consistent (since arguably, its all one big batch, which is then kegged and carbonated off the same manifold).
I do hope this helps.

 

[emjay]

Even fermentor geometry (shape, height-to-width ratio) can make a significant difference in taste... breweries that replace their fermentors to increase capacity often find that their recipes need to be tweaked a bit in order to have a product consistent with what it used to be like. Contracting out a brew onto a system entirely different than your own is obviously going to be somewhat different from you made yourself.

It's stuff like this that is the reason that it's so difficult to perfectly clone a brew even if the brewer shares the exact recipe, process, fermentation temperature(s), etc. Heck, for people who fail to realize this fact, having the precise recipe can make it HARDER to make a decent clone because they figure that you can't get any closer than using an identical recipe, when in fact, a bit of smart tweaking to adapt it to your own system can actually result in a beer that's closer to the original.

 

[Nightbiker]

and I swear that some of these yeast strains even ferment a bit differently depending on how you LOOK at them!
hmm... touchy little buggers....
well I'm going to bid y'all adeu, I gotta go pull up another pint or three, then hit the sack.

 

[gerbache]

Similar water profile...close enough. That's something that's hard (and pointless) to worry about getting to close. Used the world fampous Herman Holtrop recipe, Belgian malts, and the same candi syrup. I understand what you're saying about practice and dedication, but there's "juju" involved, too. Here's an example...I'm pretty well known for a Rye IPA. Maybe you've heard, but that doesn't really matter. I've been given dozens (at least) versions of that beer that people have made. Not one has tasted like mine.

I like the phrasing about there being "'juju' involved". I'm convinced that there's a sort of equivalent to the wine people's terroir in the brewhouse. It's part of what keeps things interesting in the beer world. It's also why I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact that my tripels don't taste quite the same as Chimay White and my IPAs aren't quite the same as Russian River's, even when I consciously aim for similar styles.

As for the topic at hand, I don't think I could even decide what I think the best beer in the world is, much less compare my own beers with it. My answers would depend so much on my mood, the weather, the phase of the moon... I think I make pretty good beer, and I think my brewing technique and recipe formulation have generally gotten better the longer I do it. If anything, I think my brewing has led me to appreciate the really good commercial beers I have even more, now that I know a little about what it takes to produce them.

 

[bovineblitz]

Cream ale requires temp control just like a lager does.

Mainly I think it's that a cream ale doesn't have an intense flavor so any small mistake you make is amplified much more than in a hoppy pale ale or something roasty.

I've brewed a few pretty good cream ales once I got everything under control but in principle it is a little tougher even though it's an ale.

 

[bovineblitz]

I'm seeing a lot of people saying "everyone thinks their beer is the best"... am I the only one who's way too harsh on their own beer? It seems like every third recipe is a great success but in between I find myself saying "too much diacetyl", "why does this taste kind of belgian", or "where the hell did THAT flavor come from?". Usually I have much harsher comment about my beers than anyone else I have tasting it.

I mean I think I make pretty damn good beer, some of which is just as good as anything I can buy, and even the ones that don't turn out great are comparable to some commercial beer I've had... I just wonder how true the ugly baby syndrome is both in my case and in the case of the average homebrewer.

 

[gerbache]

I definitely also suffer from the problem of being my own beer's harshest critic. I think the issue for me is that, while everyone else drinks it and just thinks about whether it's good or bad, I drink it and think "aww, man, I used a bit too much crystal in that one" or "I should've dropped the temperature a few more degrees" instead.

 

[prrriiide]

Well you guys are doing it wrong then...My homebrew comes out consistantly better then commerical beer IMHO. (to those of you advocating homebrew is inferior to commercial beer, sounding like InBev reps on the Board!)

SOME homebrew (even a lot) IS inferior to any commercial brew out there - even Black Label or Old Milwaukee Light. I know - I was given some and it was - truthfully - undrinkable. It wasn't infected, it didn't have any kind of DMS or acetaldehyde or anything like that. It just tasted like the run-off from a pig sty. Like they brewed it with old bar-sink water.

Some homebrew (even a lot) is far superior to commercial products. If you are referring to BMC offerings, anything with a little flavor is going to taste superior to that. If you're talking about the big boys in the craft beer industry - Sierra Nevada, New Belgium, Widmer, etc. - that ups the ante significantly, because those folks brew some great beers.

AFA cloning goes, if you want to really test your brewing chops, imitating an already successful recipe - and making it so well that people can't tell the difference side by side - is a good way to do it. I have personally never done a clone, and might not ever do one. But I can see that there is value in the exercise. I can guarantee that some of the best commercial craft beers out there started out life as a clone recipe, and were then tweaked and evolved to become something original. Hell, anyone that brews a Wit can trace that line back to Hoegaarden. That was an extinct style until that brewery revived it.

Another aspect to cloning is that if you can make a precise copy of a very successful beer, then the chances are that your process (albeit on a smaller scale) is very close to what the original brewery is doing. If that's a successful brewery, it probably means that you are doing something right, too.

I may miss the marks for the style guidelines in some cases, but I don't care if I like the result! I"d make a terrible commerical brewer but I"m a decent homebrewer.

Yooper...some of the best commercial craft beer I've had doesn't really fit the style. I love Sweetwater's Georgia Brown. But it's a hoppy brown, and likely too heavy on the IBUs to fit style (11C). But they sell the crap out of it. DFH's Midas touch doesn't fit any style that exists, but it's also one of the most complex and delicious brews I have had in awhile. Being able to brew to style is great and all, but in the end it's the flavor that's going to sell, whether it's to style or not. You probably know a lot more examples than I do of that.

 

[Nightbiker]

I think you were too kind regarding old mil, but my grandfather absolutely loved the original (I can STILL smell that rank beer and hes' been dead for years). They were consistent, though (grin).
I guess I'm not too critical of my own because I just enjoy drinking something I made from start to finish, and that other people seem to enjoy drinking (if they were just being polite, they wouldn't head to the kegerator when they come over) -but I harbor no illusions that its the best stuff available.
Ultimately, >I< like it, and thats what counts (to me) at the end of the day.
I love beer, and I love that I'm able to make a decent product.

 

[gclay]

Peoples taste buds are different, what's considered better to one may be rank to another. There should be no which is better debate because it's all good beer to one person or another.

Now can't we all just get along.

 

[Nightbiker]

very true! Just the other day at work, we were talking about some of the best and worst (commercial) beers we had ever had -and one that I thought ranked near the absolute bottom of the cesspool was actually considered one of the favorites of a co-worker! Its from another state, and he missed the stuff. I had tried it and it took a few other beers to get the taste out.
They're good to SOMEONE -otherwise they wouldn't still be on the shelf. Product that is 'bad' doesn't sell -and if it doesn't sell, the company doesn't stay in business and the product won't be around any longer. There is something about (whatever product) that a segment of the population decides is worth forking over their hard-won loot to purchase.
Simply being cheap and available isn't really enough to keep a product around.

 

[remilard]

I mean I think I make pretty damn good beer, some of which is just as good as anything I can buy, and even the ones that don't turn out great are comparable to some commercial beer I've had... I just wonder how true the ugly baby syndrome is both in my case and in the case of the average homebrewer.

I am pretty self critical too. So are all of the best homebrewers I know, that is how you get better (recognizing that there is room for improvement). This is why BJCP judges, on balance, do the best in competitions. We are trained to be critical and can apply that to our own beers directly.

 

[bernerbrau]

What was water profile? How many steps in your infusion? Did you buy your from the same malters? Do you use the same Belguim and German sugars that they use? So on and so forth. I've been studing their brew for over a year now. I'll brew my first batch later this fall.

I'm not trying to say I'm better than you or anyone else. The fact of the matter is if you devote yourself to perfecting something you will. It's that simple. That's all I'm saying.

You really have no idea who you're preaching "perfection" at, do you?

It's disturbing how full of brewer d*ck swinging this thread is.

 

[cruckin78]

This thread has nothing to do with brewing any more, it's about post counts flexing their superiority over newer members..

I bow to all who has a post count higher then mine, I accept you brew better then me....

 

[rycov]

accept

 

[cruckin78]

accept

Fixed it, excuse my grammatical error, I only speak Bad English

 

[rycov]

its cool. i don't capitalize anything. i just can't help being a dick at every opportunity.

 

[cruckin78]

its cool. i don't capitalize anything. i just can't help being a dick at every opportunity.

Thats why I love this place!

 

[remilard]

This thread has nothing to do with brewing any more, it's about post counts flexing their superiority over newer members..

I bow to all who has a post count higher then mine, I accept you brew better then me....

No it isn't. There have been some credentials posted in this thread, but not post count related. What I see is some people insulting some other people where the insulted are successful competition brewers in the case of your insult, and an AHA governing committee member, multiple NHC presenter, and author of one of the most popular homebrew recipes ever in that other dude's case.

It's hard to know who to trust online. I would never lean on my (relatively modest) post count. I do think I have some accomplishments (High Plains Brewer of the Year, 3rd most NHC second round entries this year, 90+ on the BJCP exam on the first try) that are meaningful.

So there may be some penis measuring but when you run around dismissing a thoughtful post with "you must not know what you are doing", you are asking for that. For you to try to save face by claiming that it is all about post count is just weird and sad. Nobody referenced a post count but you.

 

[a10t2]

My actual question is more along the lines of this scenario: You have a 1bbl brewery. You contract a 10bbl batch of one of your recipes. The contract batch goes through a more commercial process than your own batches on your 1BBL. If they did not taste the same, what would be the leading causes as to why?

What do you consider a "more commercial" process? In the context of this hypothetical example, once you've answered that you'll also have answered your question.

If there's a change in process that changes the flavor, then the flavor change was caused by the process change. If you can scale up the recipe without changing the process, there should be no effect on flavor. QED.