Home brew Vs. Commercial

[osagedr]

The best thing about this place is that we have some insanely knowledgeable brewers, as has been noted. They'd likely be too modest to admit it, but they are better than many, maybe even most, commercial brewers. And they freely share everything they have learned with us aspiring types. It's awesome! IMO they have every right to get irritated when some poster makes a ridiculous blanket statement that flies in the face of not only facts, but common sense. The reason the best homebrewers are the best is because they are precise and unforgiving of errors in their process. So they expect precision from other posters and are unforgiving of errors in logic or fact.

That aside, my own goals for homebrewing (not listed in order of importance) are:

(1) make beer that people like when they drink it. Of course they won't like everything if they are not used to the style, but if they are used to the style and I brew something they think is as good as (or better than) what they usually drink I feel like I'm on the right track. It's gratifying.

(2) improve over time, hopefully even from batch-to-batch. One of the things that attracts me to this hobsession is that a scholarly approach pays off. I know a lot more than I did six months ago, and six months from now I hopefully will know a lot more than I do now. Increasing my knowledge (due in no small part to rubbing shoulders with great brewers on HBT) is making me a better brewer.

(3) do well at competition. Not everyone cares, or bothers to enter competitions, but getting comments from beer judges can provide critical feedback about your process. Also, knowing that your efforts to become a better brewer are paying dividends in the form of medals that demonstrate increasing proficiency is nice. It's one thing to say "Well I know my beer is good, and my wife/husband/friends like it." but quite another to say "I won a gold/silver/bronze with this beer at _____ competition; the judges comments indicate I still have to work on _____ so I'm going to do that and hopefully keep improving."

At any rate, I know I have a huge number of improvements to my process left to make, and an incredible amount left to learn, but I have seen some hopeful signs that my brewing is getting better. Just gotta keep moving forward!

 

[scottland]

Well you guys are doing it wrong then...My homebrew comes out consistantly better then commerical beer IMHO. (to those of you advocating homebrew is inferior to commercial beer, sounding like InBev reps on the Board!)

Sorry man, but i highly doubt it.

Pick a classic style of beer. You brew a batch, i'll pick commercial examples, and i guarantee a qualified beer judge will pick the commercial examples over your homebrew. And I'll honestly go along with this experiment if you want to. I'll buy and ship the beer to a judge.

I'm not saying your a bad brewer, but you aren't giving respect where respect is due.

 

[cruckin78]

No it isn't. There have been some credentials posted in this thread, but not post count related. What I see is some people insulting some other people where the insulted are successful competition brewers in the case of your insult, and an AHA governing committee member, multiple NHC presenter, and author of one of the most popular homebrew recipes ever in that other dude's case.

It's hard to know who to trust online. (High Plains Brewer of the Year, 3rd most NHC second round entries this year, 90+ on the BJCP exam on the first try) that are meaningful.

If you took a vague comment, "Your doing it wrong" as an insult when in it was not even directed at you...Is crazy...Dont be so thinned skinned, it's the internet bud!

But if in fact what you've posted about your self and your credentials are true, your knowledge far exceeds mine, and I would like to sit down and talk or brew together some day.

I am working on my credentials, my BJCP test is next June, and my beers have placed Top 3 for Beer of the Year, local contest here in Tallahassee, and I received a 38 with the same beer at the Coconut Cup 2011 in Miami (BJCP contest).

So I am no newbie either....While my accolades may not be a extravagant as yours, our whole back and forth has derived from a comment that was not directed at you.

My comment was directed at those who think they cannot make good beer, because they do not monitor their mash temps, fermentation temps, get infections, etc. NOT I REPEAT NOT THAT MY PROCESS IS BETTER OR WORSE THEN YOURS OR I AM A BETTER OR WORSE BREWER THEN YOU!

 

[ArcaneXor]

Freshness for the most part, and of course the ability to dial in your recipes and processes to match your specific tastes.

 

[VonMessa]

This thread has nothing to do with brewing any more, it's about post counts flexing their superiority over newer members..

I bow to all who has a post count higher then mine, I accept you brew better then me....

You didn't get the memo?

Your join date MUST be when you started brewing and has NOTHING to do with the fact that you could have EVER possibly stumbled upon this forum 10-15 years into this hobby and as such, you know absolutely nothing until you have a wicked high post count.

There are a few such as Yooper that have amassed high post counts by helping and guiding others and I offer Kudos to them. Then there are others that waste oxygen. I myself, spend more time brewing than posting. There are some guys out there that have been brewing since the day it was legalized (or longer) that can brew a beer that would knock the socks off most of the blowhards on here yet they have not read or written one post on this forum. These are the folks that I really like to talk to. There is a distinct significance to the ratio of two ears to one mouth.

In the end it is all relative. To say that a homebrewed beer could not be as good as a commercial beer is absolutely ludicrous. I, and I'm sure many others here, have had some fairly disgusting commercial beers. The word commercial, to me at least, means produced (mass or small batches) and sold. It is most certainly NOT synonymous or interchangeable with the words good or successful.

Can everyone brew an awesome beer? Of course not.
Some folks should not be allowed behind a stove, either.

Can some homebrewers craft a beer that can rival or is better than a "commercial" brew house? Most definitely. Does this mean that because they do not work for or own a commercial brewery that they are not a successful brewer? Of course not. Just because one is hung like a horse doesn't require one to be a porn star, either.

As someone else pointed out (being a musician myself , I can relate) you learn by playing others music. Once you have learned that, the next logical step is to craft one's own music. I personally, find it a boring prospect to play in a cover band forever.

When I think of successful brewer, what comes to mind is the guys whose brew is requested at parties or who is complimented by someone dumping out their bottle of coors/miller/ab and saying "fill 'er up with what you've got in that there keg"

At the end of the day, when you've spent 3, 4, 5 or even 6 hours brewing, 2, 3, 4 months (or a year or two) of fermenting/aging, etc and you crack one open, ask yourself:

Did I enjoy brewing it?
Was it drinkable?
Did I learn anything?
Did I have fun brewing?

If you answer yes to these questions then congratulations, you may not have a commercially sold beer but you are most certainly a successful homebrewer.

I think what a lot of folks forget is that, before there were "commercial" breweries and pubs, EVERYONE was a homebrewer

 

[bovineblitz]

This thread has nothing to do with brewing any more, it's about post counts flexing their superiority over newer members..

I bow to all who has a post count higher then mine, I accept you brew better then me....

The last line of defense has been breached...

 

[cruckin78]

No VON I missed that memo

I agree 100% with your post! I have a blast brewing!

 

[Denny]

Most commercial brewers cut corners to save money. You are using quality ingredients, sparing no expense to make awesome beer. Also a little TLC can go a long way when you are making something consumable from scratch. You can almost taste the effort put forth over several months in the final product.

That's the reason homebrew is better.

Define "commercial brewers". Does that include Rogue, for instance? Because if it does, you're wrong.

 

[Denny]

who thinks I look good as a dominatrix, I believe.

Yowzah, baby!

 

[remilard]

You didn't get the memo?

Your join date MUST be when you started brewing and has NOTHING to do with the fact that you could have EVER possibly stumbled upon this forum 10-15 years into this hobby and as such, you know absolutely nothing until you have a wicked high post count.

Strawman, only you and crunk have brought up join dates and post counts. I agree 100% that post count means crap, that's why I gave some real world credentials.

To say that a homebrewed beer could not be as good as a commercial beer is absolutely ludicrous.

Strawman, nobody said that.

 

[bernerbrau]

and author of one of the most popular homebrew recipes ever in that other dude's case.

I mean for crying out loud, he has a friggin' yeast named after him. Hell, I'm just a post whore who's lucky if his IPA comes out reasonably balanced.

 

[VonMessa]

Strawman, only you and crunk have brought up join dates and post counts. I agree 100% that post count means crap, that's why I gave some real world credentials.



Strawman, nobody said that.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

Calling me out on a straw man fallacy assumes that I was having an argument (I was actually agreeing with him) and therefore I did not have to concoct a similar, but inequivalent and superficial proposition to refute what he was saying.

The second thing, I could have delved deeper and read more carefully about, but I apologize that I did not. You are correct, I can recall off the top of my head where the statement that "homebrew can't be as good as commercial" came from. It still is more like a fallacy of false cause (with a post hoc ergo propter hoc special case) It just seemed that this was the gist of a lot of these posts and I assumed a casual relation through temporal succession. It could not be a straw man because I was not arguing with anyone (unless I was arguing with myself, anyhow)


EDIT: I concede, I must have mis-read. You said the MAJORITY, not ALL will not achieve a beer as good as a commercial brewery.

Exactly, same reason your farts don't smell and your baby isn't ugly.

Objectively, to be able to consistently produce beer comparable to a good craft brewer is something the majority of homebrewers do not ever achieve.

Some of the best beer I have had is homebrew, but also some of the worst. If I am in an area where I want a good beer but don't know the commercial or homebrewers (eg, flying blind), I'll get a commercial beer. That's playing the odds.

My deepest apologies

 

[Denny]

I mean for crying out loud, he has a friggin' yeast named after him. Hell, I'm just a post whore who's lucky if his IPA comes out reasonably balanced.

I guess this is an appropriate place to say that although I've been very lucky, I'm still just a homebrewer, just like everybody else here.

 

[ayoungrad]

The bottom line is this:

All of my beers are better than all commercial beers. They are better than those from large breweries, craft breweries and nano breweries.

And they are absolutely infinitely better than all beers produced by all members of HBT. And all of this is the case because my techniques, ingredients, brewing knowledge and discerning tastes are significantly greater than all others who are involved in brewing in any manner.

Yes. This is what this thread has become.

As to the OP... I think the important thing to remember is that no matter what changes between small and slightly larger scale brewing, you will never please everyone, everytime with every beer.

 

[Skarekrough]

In my own opinion(humbly, of course), trying to copy a commercial beer is totally silly for a homebrewer.

I can think of two reasons to copy a commercial beer.

The first is that the supply isn't available or is prohibitively expensive to buy versus making your own. I'm a huge fan of Rasputin Imperial Stout, but the cost out here is outrageous and by the time it gets here its been banging around for quite awhile in trucks.

The second is when you taste something and you wish it just had a little something more or less to it. Cloning it gives you the opportunity to make those changes and tweak it to your own personal palette.

 

[fullstop22]

People sometimes ask what is the difference between store bought beer & homebrew? My response, home baked bread or store bought which is better? Same ingredients taste and texture very different. Bread mass produced fantastic for what it is. Home made bread fantastic. Freshness is a big factor I believe.

 

[Denny]

People sometimes ask what is the difference between store bought beer & homebrew? My response, home baked bread or store bought which is better? Same ingredients taste and texture very different. Bread mass produced fantastic for what it is. Home made bread fantastic.

I make great sourdough baguettes. They're not nearly as good as what I can buy at a half dozen bakeries in town.

 

[cruckin78]

The bottom line is this:

All of my beers are better than all commercial beers. They are better than those from large breweries, craft breweries and nano breweries.

And they are absolutely infinitely better than all beers produced by all members of HBT. And all of this is the case because my techniques, ingredients, brewing knowledge and discerning tastes are significantly greater than all others who are involved in brewing in any manner.

Yes. This is what this thread has become.

As to the OP... I think the important thing to remember is that no matter what changes between small and slightly larger scale brewing, you will never please everyone, everytime with every beer.

:rockin::rockin: This made me LOL for sure! :rockin::rockin:

 

[gclay]

wow this thread has gone nuts.... Who's got a yeast named after them, I want some. I always talk to my wife about the folks on here who have helped me and others and I want to tell her the story behind that yeast.

As for cloning, I look at it like a text book, there's tons to learn, but eventually you have to step out on your own. I think I own most of the clone brew books out there ( i think anyways) and they're my bibles. If I want to try a new style first thing I do is look up all the variations I have and pick the one I think best suits my taste buds.

I love this site and all those who help and not tear down, I'm online probably 8 hours a day reading and learning. To me post counts don't mean much, there are people who like to hear themselves talk, but accolades do. But that is not to say that I wouldn't listen to someone who's just started brewing either, everyone has knowledge of some sort and all can be, and sometimes are, useful.

just my $0.02 worth.

 

[scottland]

and I received a 38 with the same beer at the Coconut Cup 2011 in Miami (BJCP contest).
!

In bigger competitions, often times a 38 won't even place. A beer that scored a 38 is a good beer, but i promise you I can find plenty of commercial examples in the same category that will score much higher.

 

[scottland]

Who's got a yeast named after them, I want some. I always talk to my wife about the folks on here who have helped me and others and I want to tell her the story behind that yeast.

Denny is Denny Conn. WYeast 1450 - Denny's Favorite is the yeast that's....well..... named after Denny.

 

[Homebrewtastic]

I guess this is an appropriate place to say that although I've been very lucky, I'm still just a homebrewer, just like everybody else here.

I've used the yeast before. But I must ask....

Is it REALLY you're favorite?

 

[gclay]

Denny is Denny Conn. WYeast 1450 - Denny's Favorite is the yeast that's....well..... named after Denny.

I'll have to order a couple packets next time I order (in a couple weeks), looks like it'd be perfect for the wit I want to brew.

Awesome to have it named after ya, congrats.

 

[ayoungrad]

In bigger competitions, often times a 38 won't even place. A beer that scored a 38 is a good beer, but i promise you I can find plenty of commercial examples in the same category that will score much higher.

Agreed.

I made an IIPA that scored a 38 in first round of the 2011 NHC. Made it to a mini-BOS but did not place into the second round.

 

[Phunhog]

Somebody touched on it but I see brewing like making music. Of course their are certain "must's" like keeping time and hitting the right notes just like sanitation is a "must" when brewing. After that though it is pretty much open for interpretation. What is "good music"? Everybody has a different opinion. The same with beers regardless of whether they are commercial or homebrewed. I don't compare my beers to Sierra Nevada anymore than I compare my music to U2. One is only better than another in your opinion. I think we all have "award winning" beers that we didn't care for at all. All that matters is if YOU are happy with your beer and brewing.
I agee that clones can be a valuable learning experience just like learning a new song. It gives you someplace to "jump off" from and experiment.

 

[Denny]

Who's got a yeast named after them, I want some.

I do...WY1450

 

[cruckin78]

I do...WY1450

seriously, How do you get a yeast strain named after you? THATS IS FREAKIN AWESOME!

 

[lamarguy]

Thanks for the laugh guys...

1. Can homebrew be better than commercial beer?
2. Of course! All of my homebrew is better than commercial beer!
3. Guy, slow your roll. I'm sure your beer is not as good as you think.
4. What, you think you're better than me 'cause you have a higher post count?
5. In so many words, no, but I am a veteran brewer and you're obviously a pompous.
6. ...
7. Profit!

 

[Nightbiker]

I can think of two reasons to copy a commercial beer.

The first is that the supply isn't available or is prohibitively expensive to buy versus making your own. I'm a huge fan of Rasputin Imperial Stout, but the cost out here is outrageous and by the time it gets here its been banging around for quite awhile in trucks.

The second is when you taste something and you wish it just had a little something more or less to it. Cloning it gives you the opportunity to make those changes and tweak it to your own personal palette.

100% with this. There are a few out there that I would absolutely LOVE to have available at all times, that are rather tough to get in this area, and when they ARE available, a six-pack costs more than the ingredients for a 5gallon (10 gallon in one case) would cost to brew. My budget really couldn't take the hit if this stuff was readily available at the prices they want.
That alone is no reason to get into brewing, but it sure doesn't hurt

 

[Nightbiker]

I do...WY1450

you are like, way beyond cool! A GOD, if I may say so.

 

[Denny]

seriously, How do you get a yeast strain named after you? THATS IS FREAKIN AWESOME!

It's a long story I'll recount sometime if people really want to hear it.

 

[Denny]

I've used the yeast before. But I must ask....

Is it REALLY you're favorite?

Well for American styles it is!

 

[Denny]

I'll have to order a couple packets next time I order (in a couple weeks), looks like it'd be perfect for the wit I want to brew.

Awesome to have it named after ya, congrats.

Thanks for the kind words, but no way would I use it for a wit. It's great for American styles, though.

 

[Denny]

you are like, way beyond cool! A GOD, if I may say so.

That's very kind of you, but I'm just a homebrewer like everybody else here. Maybe a bit luckier, maybe a few more batches, but as Red Green said "we're all in this together".

 

[rycov]

It's a long story I'll recount sometime if people really want to hear it.

lets hear it!

 

[brewit2it]

Thanks for the kind words, but no way would I use it for a wit. It's great for American styles, though.

I would, in fact I think I'll try yours. American ale yeasts make the best wits if you ask me. It's cute that you can get the flavor or clove or bananas in a beer without actually adding any but that doesn't change the fact that phenols are off flavors in my opinion. Not to style maybe, but that doen't change the fact that you get a better beer where you can taste the malt, wheat, corriander and orange with a great crisp sour finish if you dump the wheat yeast and use an ale yeast in your wit.

I don't like Trappist ales in generally either. Big, complex, expensive, cool glasses, and chock full of off flavors. Fusel alcohol and phenols are something I personally try to avoid. I know, they are an aquired taste. It takes a while to convince yourself it doesn't taste like ass LOL. If I want a high alcohol beer I'll take a black IIPA or Russian Imperial Stout every day of the week and just have to live with the fact that the intense alcohol flavor or the flavor of rotting fruit isn't going to come forward to challenge my less than sophisticated palate:cross:.

Okay, sorry about the off topic.

 

[Denny]

I would, in fact I think I'll try yours. American ale yeasts make the best wits if you ask me. It's cute that you can get the flavor or clove or bananas in a beer without actually adding any but that doesn't change the fact that phenols are off flavors in my opinion. Not to style maybe, but that doen't change the fact that you get a better beer where you can taste the malt, wheat, corriander and orange with a great crisp sour finish if you dump the wheat yeast and use an ale yeast in your wit.

I don't like Trappist ales in generally either. Big, complex, expensive, cool glasses, and chock full of off flavors. Fusel alcohol and phenols are something I personally try to avoid. I know, they are an aquired taste. It takes a while to convince yourself it doesn't taste like ass LOL. If I want a high alcohol beer I'll take a black IIPA or Russian Imperial Stout every day of the week and just have to live with the fact that the intense alcohol flavor or the flavor of rotting fruit isn't going to come forward to challenge my less than sophisticated palate:cross:.

Okay, sorry about the off topic.

Well, if you make it with an Am. yeast, I wouldn't call it a wit, just like I wouldn't look at a chicken and say it's a poodle. One reason styles exist is to give us a common language to discuss beers. If you make up your own definitions, you confuse things. What if you went into a bar and ordered a pale ale and the bartender gave you a stout and said "To me, this is a pale ale"?

And personally, you can't pay me to drink a "black IPA/IIPA"!

 

[Homebrewtastic]

I would, in fact I think I'll try yours. American ale yeasts make the best wits if you ask me. It's cute that you can get the flavor or clove or bananas in a beer without actually adding any but that doesn't change the fact that phenols are off flavors in my opinion. Not to style maybe, but that doen't change the fact that you get a better beer where you can taste the malt, wheat, corriander and orange with a great crisp sour finish if you dump the wheat yeast and use an ale yeast in your wit.

I don't like Trappist ales in generally either. Big, complex, expensive, cool glasses, and chock full of off flavors. Fusel alcohol and phenols are something I personally try to avoid. I know, they are an aquired taste. It takes a while to convince yourself it doesn't taste like ass LOL. If I want a high alcohol beer I'll take a black IIPA or Russian Imperial Stout every day of the week and just have to live with the fact that the intense alcohol flavor or the flavor of rotting fruit isn't going to come forward to challenge my less than sophisticated palate:cross:.

Okay, sorry about the off topic.

Kind of to what Denny was saying is that you will make a great beer but not really a witbier. Because by the definition of the style a Witbier HAS those phenols and esters. To me, it sounds more like a spiced American Wheat. Which I have no doubt will turn out great.

 

[brewit2it]

Well, if you make it with an Am. yeast, I wouldn't call it a wit, just like I wouldn't look at a chicken and say it's a poodle. One reason styles exist is to give us a common language to discuss beers. If you make up your own definitions, you confuse things. What if you went into a bar and ordered a pale ale and the bartender gave you a stout and said "To me, this is a pale ale"?

And personally, you can't pay me to drink a "black IPA/IIPA"!

I appreciate what you are saying but I don't think your analogy is completely fair since a stout vs an IPA are very different styles while I'm talking about making a white wheat beer, same grain bill and spices, etc, but only changing the yeast character. Actually what we might need (as I think Wayne once suggested) is maybe a new style; American Wit.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. IIPA isn't my favorite either but I can certainly enjoy them now and again when I'm in the mood to be hopped up. I like Stone Sublimely Self Righteous Ale quite a bit.

I actually prefer to make hybrid brews so I probably wouldn't fair that well in competitive brewing even if my beers were good enough (which they probably aren't).

My favorite beers to keep on tap are a Amber/IPA hybrid, American Wit, and a Kolsch with more late hop addition than to style, I call the one I'm transferring to keg today Kolschner Urquell.

 

[gclay]

ok, I was just reading the article on wits in the new BYO. I'm still picking up a few packs you can never have too much yeast around