Home brew Vs. Commercial

[Nightbiker]

So this thread has been interesting but I guess I sucked it up on the OP.

My actual question is more along the lines of this scenario: You have a 1bbl brewery. You contract a 10bbl batch of one of your recipes. The contract batch goes through a more commercial process than your own batches on your 1BBL. If they did not taste the same, what would be the leading causes as to why?

could be several reasons I can think of off the top of my head.
Repeatability. Making that same 1bbl batch x10 on the average homebrewers' rig would be an interesting feat. Some of these guys have a nearly automated rig, and would (in my opinion) stand the best chance of making a repeatable beer x10. My rig is not automated in the slightest, and I admit I'd have a heck of a time doing that. It would only take a few changes in any of the variables involved in brewing (not just the 'hot side' but even and especially during fermentation, packaging etc) to make one batch taste a little different than the next. This is a very bad thing for a commercial operation -the average beer drinker expects consistency -and frown all we might, fact of the matter is that even a beer novice can detect changes in flavors bottle to bottle.
Keeping everything the same, start to finish, is a daunting task and well beyond most (certainly beyond my capability) but the closer you can get to that, the more consistency you will see.
Now, when >I'M< going to brew a 'large' batch, that will be available in one sitting (like when I am bringing several kegs of brew to a motorcycle rally) I will usually blend the wort prior to pitching the yeast, and pitch the same amount of yeast per fermenter (eventually I will acquire a larger fermenter, one that will fit in my keezer and that can hold about 20 gallons) -this goes a long way toward allowing me to at least appear more consistent (since arguably, its all one big batch, which is then kegged and carbonated off the same manifold).
I do hope this helps.

 

[emjay]

Even fermentor geometry (shape, height-to-width ratio) can make a significant difference in taste... breweries that replace their fermentors to increase capacity often find that their recipes need to be tweaked a bit in order to have a product consistent with what it used to be like. Contracting out a brew onto a system entirely different than your own is obviously going to be somewhat different from you made yourself.

It's stuff like this that is the reason that it's so difficult to perfectly clone a brew even if the brewer shares the exact recipe, process, fermentation temperature(s), etc. Heck, for people who fail to realize this fact, having the precise recipe can make it HARDER to make a decent clone because they figure that you can't get any closer than using an identical recipe, when in fact, a bit of smart tweaking to adapt it to your own system can actually result in a beer that's closer to the original.

 

[Nightbiker]

and I swear that some of these yeast strains even ferment a bit differently depending on how you LOOK at them!
hmm... touchy little buggers....
well I'm going to bid y'all adeu, I gotta go pull up another pint or three, then hit the sack.

 

[gerbache]

Similar water profile...close enough. That's something that's hard (and pointless) to worry about getting to close. Used the world fampous Herman Holtrop recipe, Belgian malts, and the same candi syrup. I understand what you're saying about practice and dedication, but there's "juju" involved, too. Here's an example...I'm pretty well known for a Rye IPA. Maybe you've heard, but that doesn't really matter. I've been given dozens (at least) versions of that beer that people have made. Not one has tasted like mine.

I like the phrasing about there being "'juju' involved". I'm convinced that there's a sort of equivalent to the wine people's terroir in the brewhouse. It's part of what keeps things interesting in the beer world. It's also why I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact that my tripels don't taste quite the same as Chimay White and my IPAs aren't quite the same as Russian River's, even when I consciously aim for similar styles.

As for the topic at hand, I don't think I could even decide what I think the best beer in the world is, much less compare my own beers with it. My answers would depend so much on my mood, the weather, the phase of the moon... I think I make pretty good beer, and I think my brewing technique and recipe formulation have generally gotten better the longer I do it. If anything, I think my brewing has led me to appreciate the really good commercial beers I have even more, now that I know a little about what it takes to produce them.

 

[bovineblitz]

Cream ale requires temp control just like a lager does.

Mainly I think it's that a cream ale doesn't have an intense flavor so any small mistake you make is amplified much more than in a hoppy pale ale or something roasty.

I've brewed a few pretty good cream ales once I got everything under control but in principle it is a little tougher even though it's an ale.

 

[bovineblitz]

I'm seeing a lot of people saying "everyone thinks their beer is the best"... am I the only one who's way too harsh on their own beer? It seems like every third recipe is a great success but in between I find myself saying "too much diacetyl", "why does this taste kind of belgian", or "where the hell did THAT flavor come from?". Usually I have much harsher comment about my beers than anyone else I have tasting it.

I mean I think I make pretty damn good beer, some of which is just as good as anything I can buy, and even the ones that don't turn out great are comparable to some commercial beer I've had... I just wonder how true the ugly baby syndrome is both in my case and in the case of the average homebrewer.

 

[gerbache]

I definitely also suffer from the problem of being my own beer's harshest critic. I think the issue for me is that, while everyone else drinks it and just thinks about whether it's good or bad, I drink it and think "aww, man, I used a bit too much crystal in that one" or "I should've dropped the temperature a few more degrees" instead.

 

[prrriiide]

Well you guys are doing it wrong then...My homebrew comes out consistantly better then commerical beer IMHO. (to those of you advocating homebrew is inferior to commercial beer, sounding like InBev reps on the Board!)

SOME homebrew (even a lot) IS inferior to any commercial brew out there - even Black Label or Old Milwaukee Light. I know - I was given some and it was - truthfully - undrinkable. It wasn't infected, it didn't have any kind of DMS or acetaldehyde or anything like that. It just tasted like the run-off from a pig sty. Like they brewed it with old bar-sink water.

Some homebrew (even a lot) is far superior to commercial products. If you are referring to BMC offerings, anything with a little flavor is going to taste superior to that. If you're talking about the big boys in the craft beer industry - Sierra Nevada, New Belgium, Widmer, etc. - that ups the ante significantly, because those folks brew some great beers.

AFA cloning goes, if you want to really test your brewing chops, imitating an already successful recipe - and making it so well that people can't tell the difference side by side - is a good way to do it. I have personally never done a clone, and might not ever do one. But I can see that there is value in the exercise. I can guarantee that some of the best commercial craft beers out there started out life as a clone recipe, and were then tweaked and evolved to become something original. Hell, anyone that brews a Wit can trace that line back to Hoegaarden. That was an extinct style until that brewery revived it.

Another aspect to cloning is that if you can make a precise copy of a very successful beer, then the chances are that your process (albeit on a smaller scale) is very close to what the original brewery is doing. If that's a successful brewery, it probably means that you are doing something right, too.

I may miss the marks for the style guidelines in some cases, but I don't care if I like the result! I"d make a terrible commerical brewer but I"m a decent homebrewer.

Yooper...some of the best commercial craft beer I've had doesn't really fit the style. I love Sweetwater's Georgia Brown. But it's a hoppy brown, and likely too heavy on the IBUs to fit style (11C). But they sell the crap out of it. DFH's Midas touch doesn't fit any style that exists, but it's also one of the most complex and delicious brews I have had in awhile. Being able to brew to style is great and all, but in the end it's the flavor that's going to sell, whether it's to style or not. You probably know a lot more examples than I do of that.

 

[Nightbiker]

I think you were too kind regarding old mil, but my grandfather absolutely loved the original (I can STILL smell that rank beer and hes' been dead for years). They were consistent, though (grin).
I guess I'm not too critical of my own because I just enjoy drinking something I made from start to finish, and that other people seem to enjoy drinking (if they were just being polite, they wouldn't head to the kegerator when they come over) -but I harbor no illusions that its the best stuff available.
Ultimately, >I< like it, and thats what counts (to me) at the end of the day.
I love beer, and I love that I'm able to make a decent product.

 

[gclay]

Peoples taste buds are different, what's considered better to one may be rank to another. There should be no which is better debate because it's all good beer to one person or another.

Now can't we all just get along.

 

[Nightbiker]

very true! Just the other day at work, we were talking about some of the best and worst (commercial) beers we had ever had -and one that I thought ranked near the absolute bottom of the cesspool was actually considered one of the favorites of a co-worker! Its from another state, and he missed the stuff. I had tried it and it took a few other beers to get the taste out.
They're good to SOMEONE -otherwise they wouldn't still be on the shelf. Product that is 'bad' doesn't sell -and if it doesn't sell, the company doesn't stay in business and the product won't be around any longer. There is something about (whatever product) that a segment of the population decides is worth forking over their hard-won loot to purchase.
Simply being cheap and available isn't really enough to keep a product around.

 

[remilard]

I mean I think I make pretty damn good beer, some of which is just as good as anything I can buy, and even the ones that don't turn out great are comparable to some commercial beer I've had... I just wonder how true the ugly baby syndrome is both in my case and in the case of the average homebrewer.

I am pretty self critical too. So are all of the best homebrewers I know, that is how you get better (recognizing that there is room for improvement). This is why BJCP judges, on balance, do the best in competitions. We are trained to be critical and can apply that to our own beers directly.

 

[bernerbrau]

What was water profile? How many steps in your infusion? Did you buy your from the same malters? Do you use the same Belguim and German sugars that they use? So on and so forth. I've been studing their brew for over a year now. I'll brew my first batch later this fall.

I'm not trying to say I'm better than you or anyone else. The fact of the matter is if you devote yourself to perfecting something you will. It's that simple. That's all I'm saying.

You really have no idea who you're preaching "perfection" at, do you?

It's disturbing how full of brewer d*ck swinging this thread is.

 

[cruckin78]

This thread has nothing to do with brewing any more, it's about post counts flexing their superiority over newer members..

I bow to all who has a post count higher then mine, I accept you brew better then me....

 

[rycov]

accept

 

[cruckin78]

accept

Fixed it, excuse my grammatical error, I only speak Bad English

 

[rycov]

its cool. i don't capitalize anything. i just can't help being a dick at every opportunity.

 

[cruckin78]

its cool. i don't capitalize anything. i just can't help being a dick at every opportunity.

Thats why I love this place!

 

[remilard]

This thread has nothing to do with brewing any more, it's about post counts flexing their superiority over newer members..

I bow to all who has a post count higher then mine, I accept you brew better then me....

No it isn't. There have been some credentials posted in this thread, but not post count related. What I see is some people insulting some other people where the insulted are successful competition brewers in the case of your insult, and an AHA governing committee member, multiple NHC presenter, and author of one of the most popular homebrew recipes ever in that other dude's case.

It's hard to know who to trust online. I would never lean on my (relatively modest) post count. I do think I have some accomplishments (High Plains Brewer of the Year, 3rd most NHC second round entries this year, 90+ on the BJCP exam on the first try) that are meaningful.

So there may be some penis measuring but when you run around dismissing a thoughtful post with "you must not know what you are doing", you are asking for that. For you to try to save face by claiming that it is all about post count is just weird and sad. Nobody referenced a post count but you.

 

[a10t2]

My actual question is more along the lines of this scenario: You have a 1bbl brewery. You contract a 10bbl batch of one of your recipes. The contract batch goes through a more commercial process than your own batches on your 1BBL. If they did not taste the same, what would be the leading causes as to why?

What do you consider a "more commercial" process? In the context of this hypothetical example, once you've answered that you'll also have answered your question.

If there's a change in process that changes the flavor, then the flavor change was caused by the process change. If you can scale up the recipe without changing the process, there should be no effect on flavor. QED.

 

[osagedr]

The best thing about this place is that we have some insanely knowledgeable brewers, as has been noted. They'd likely be too modest to admit it, but they are better than many, maybe even most, commercial brewers. And they freely share everything they have learned with us aspiring types. It's awesome! IMO they have every right to get irritated when some poster makes a ridiculous blanket statement that flies in the face of not only facts, but common sense. The reason the best homebrewers are the best is because they are precise and unforgiving of errors in their process. So they expect precision from other posters and are unforgiving of errors in logic or fact.

That aside, my own goals for homebrewing (not listed in order of importance) are:

(1) make beer that people like when they drink it. Of course they won't like everything if they are not used to the style, but if they are used to the style and I brew something they think is as good as (or better than) what they usually drink I feel like I'm on the right track. It's gratifying.

(2) improve over time, hopefully even from batch-to-batch. One of the things that attracts me to this hobsession is that a scholarly approach pays off. I know a lot more than I did six months ago, and six months from now I hopefully will know a lot more than I do now. Increasing my knowledge (due in no small part to rubbing shoulders with great brewers on HBT) is making me a better brewer.

(3) do well at competition. Not everyone cares, or bothers to enter competitions, but getting comments from beer judges can provide critical feedback about your process. Also, knowing that your efforts to become a better brewer are paying dividends in the form of medals that demonstrate increasing proficiency is nice. It's one thing to say "Well I know my beer is good, and my wife/husband/friends like it." but quite another to say "I won a gold/silver/bronze with this beer at _____ competition; the judges comments indicate I still have to work on _____ so I'm going to do that and hopefully keep improving."

At any rate, I know I have a huge number of improvements to my process left to make, and an incredible amount left to learn, but I have seen some hopeful signs that my brewing is getting better. Just gotta keep moving forward!

 

[scottland]

Well you guys are doing it wrong then...My homebrew comes out consistantly better then commerical beer IMHO. (to those of you advocating homebrew is inferior to commercial beer, sounding like InBev reps on the Board!)

Sorry man, but i highly doubt it.

Pick a classic style of beer. You brew a batch, i'll pick commercial examples, and i guarantee a qualified beer judge will pick the commercial examples over your homebrew. And I'll honestly go along with this experiment if you want to. I'll buy and ship the beer to a judge.

I'm not saying your a bad brewer, but you aren't giving respect where respect is due.

 

[cruckin78]

No it isn't. There have been some credentials posted in this thread, but not post count related. What I see is some people insulting some other people where the insulted are successful competition brewers in the case of your insult, and an AHA governing committee member, multiple NHC presenter, and author of one of the most popular homebrew recipes ever in that other dude's case.

It's hard to know who to trust online. (High Plains Brewer of the Year, 3rd most NHC second round entries this year, 90+ on the BJCP exam on the first try) that are meaningful.

If you took a vague comment, "Your doing it wrong" as an insult when in it was not even directed at you...Is crazy...Dont be so thinned skinned, it's the internet bud!

But if in fact what you've posted about your self and your credentials are true, your knowledge far exceeds mine, and I would like to sit down and talk or brew together some day.

I am working on my credentials, my BJCP test is next June, and my beers have placed Top 3 for Beer of the Year, local contest here in Tallahassee, and I received a 38 with the same beer at the Coconut Cup 2011 in Miami (BJCP contest).

So I am no newbie either....While my accolades may not be a extravagant as yours, our whole back and forth has derived from a comment that was not directed at you.

My comment was directed at those who think they cannot make good beer, because they do not monitor their mash temps, fermentation temps, get infections, etc. NOT I REPEAT NOT THAT MY PROCESS IS BETTER OR WORSE THEN YOURS OR I AM A BETTER OR WORSE BREWER THEN YOU!

 

[ArcaneXor]

Freshness for the most part, and of course the ability to dial in your recipes and processes to match your specific tastes.

 

[VonMessa]

This thread has nothing to do with brewing any more, it's about post counts flexing their superiority over newer members..

I bow to all who has a post count higher then mine, I accept you brew better then me....

You didn't get the memo?

Your join date MUST be when you started brewing and has NOTHING to do with the fact that you could have EVER possibly stumbled upon this forum 10-15 years into this hobby and as such, you know absolutely nothing until you have a wicked high post count.

There are a few such as Yooper that have amassed high post counts by helping and guiding others and I offer Kudos to them. Then there are others that waste oxygen. I myself, spend more time brewing than posting. There are some guys out there that have been brewing since the day it was legalized (or longer) that can brew a beer that would knock the socks off most of the blowhards on here yet they have not read or written one post on this forum. These are the folks that I really like to talk to. There is a distinct significance to the ratio of two ears to one mouth.

In the end it is all relative. To say that a homebrewed beer could not be as good as a commercial beer is absolutely ludicrous. I, and I'm sure many others here, have had some fairly disgusting commercial beers. The word commercial, to me at least, means produced (mass or small batches) and sold. It is most certainly NOT synonymous or interchangeable with the words good or successful.

Can everyone brew an awesome beer? Of course not.
Some folks should not be allowed behind a stove, either.

Can some homebrewers craft a beer that can rival or is better than a "commercial" brew house? Most definitely. Does this mean that because they do not work for or own a commercial brewery that they are not a successful brewer? Of course not. Just because one is hung like a horse doesn't require one to be a porn star, either.

As someone else pointed out (being a musician myself , I can relate) you learn by playing others music. Once you have learned that, the next logical step is to craft one's own music. I personally, find it a boring prospect to play in a cover band forever.

When I think of successful brewer, what comes to mind is the guys whose brew is requested at parties or who is complimented by someone dumping out their bottle of coors/miller/ab and saying "fill 'er up with what you've got in that there keg"

At the end of the day, when you've spent 3, 4, 5 or even 6 hours brewing, 2, 3, 4 months (or a year or two) of fermenting/aging, etc and you crack one open, ask yourself:

Did I enjoy brewing it?
Was it drinkable?
Did I learn anything?
Did I have fun brewing?

If you answer yes to these questions then congratulations, you may not have a commercially sold beer but you are most certainly a successful homebrewer.

I think what a lot of folks forget is that, before there were "commercial" breweries and pubs, EVERYONE was a homebrewer

 

[bovineblitz]

This thread has nothing to do with brewing any more, it's about post counts flexing their superiority over newer members..

I bow to all who has a post count higher then mine, I accept you brew better then me....

The last line of defense has been breached...

 

[cruckin78]

No VON I missed that memo

I agree 100% with your post! I have a blast brewing!

 

[Denny]

Most commercial brewers cut corners to save money. You are using quality ingredients, sparing no expense to make awesome beer. Also a little TLC can go a long way when you are making something consumable from scratch. You can almost taste the effort put forth over several months in the final product.

That's the reason homebrew is better.

Define "commercial brewers". Does that include Rogue, for instance? Because if it does, you're wrong.

 

[Denny]

who thinks I look good as a dominatrix, I believe.

Yowzah, baby!

 

[remilard]

You didn't get the memo?

Your join date MUST be when you started brewing and has NOTHING to do with the fact that you could have EVER possibly stumbled upon this forum 10-15 years into this hobby and as such, you know absolutely nothing until you have a wicked high post count.

Strawman, only you and crunk have brought up join dates and post counts. I agree 100% that post count means crap, that's why I gave some real world credentials.

To say that a homebrewed beer could not be as good as a commercial beer is absolutely ludicrous.

Strawman, nobody said that.