Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[roncruiser]

Can you guys recommend a White Labs alternative to Giga and Conan. I need to make my backup starter using White Labs yeast for a brew day on Saturday. I'm not sure I'll be able to get any Conan by Saturday. White Labs is right around the corner from where I live.

So, what WL yeast would you recommend as an alternative?

 

[Braufessor]

I don't know that there is a similar strain.

I suppose you could try something like Burton Ale (023)???. I would probably just use 001 or 007 or 051 maybe.

None of these are really conan.... but, they should make a good IPA.

 

[orangehero]

Wyeast 1318 London Ale III (Boddington's) is supposedly the original. Don't think there's a White Labs version, though.

 

[jammin]

@roncruiser - White Labs banks and produces Vermont Ale from The Yeast Bay. This is a solid choice for conan. Im not sure if they can sell you any, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

 

[lbond2]

White labs 644...this is the closest thing you will get to Conan. Great yeast strain for a very tasty ipa and other unique ales.

 

[brettwasbtd]

White labs 644...this is the closest thing you will get to Conan. Great yeast strain for a very tasty ipa and other unique ales.

Typo? 644 is a Brett strain

 

[barrooze]

Typo? 644 is a Brett strain

Actualy... They re categorized it. It's now named "WLP644 Saccharomyces "Bruxellensis" Trois".

 

[bobbrews]

I would not even attempt to mimic the effects of Conan by choosing another yeast.

If you can't get Conan, then just use WLP001 or WLP090. Won't be the same, but you're guaranteed a good IIPA.

 

[roncruiser]

I would not even attempt to mimic the effects of Conan by choosing another yeast.

If you can't get Conan, then just use WLP001 or WLP090. Won't be the same, but you're guaranteed a good IIPA.

Cool. Thanks. I'll do that.

 

[Bamsdealer]

Took a FG reading after I racked into the keg a week ago. To my surprise it was only down to 1.018. This should have been a pretty fermentable wort. From experience, Cali ale yeast would have got me close to 1.010. Hope it's not too sweet.

Maybe I'll get lucky and it'll drop a couple more points.

 

[pmcint01]

I would not even attempt to mimic the effects of Conan by choosing another yeast.

If you can't get Conan, then just use WLP001 or WLP090. Won't be the same, but you're guaranteed a good IIPA.

What about using ECY29?

 

[geoffey]

What about using ECY29?

Ecy29 is Conan.

 

[powermd]

Took a FG reading after I racked into the keg a week ago. To my surprise it was only down to 1.018. This should have been a pretty fermentable wort. From experience, Cali ale yeast would have got me close to 1.010. Hope it's not too sweet.

Maybe I'll get lucky and it'll drop a couple more points.

I just reached day 10 on my Heady clone on Sunday and the FG was 1.018. This was easily my best batch ever in terms of temp stability during the mash (specifically not overshooting or running my HLT water hotter than desired to make up for losses from the MT). OG was 1.071, fermenting volume was 6 gallons. I used one vial of White Labs Northeast Ale (Conan) stepped up to a 4 L starter (two steps), and aerated with a Fizz-x (instead of the usual O2 stone). Pitch temp was 64F, fermentation bath was kept at 65.5F, and after 3 days I let that rise to 68F.

I don't think there's much I could have done different. Maybe the rise from mast temp to mashout took too long and unfermentables were generated. Maybe add some yeast nutrient to the wort? The first taste from the fermenter was a bit more bitter than I would have chosen, so I think I'll be okay if it's a little sweeter than normal to balance that.

 

[joehoppy]

I just reached day 10 on my Heady clone on Sunday and the FG was 1.018. This was easily my best batch ever in terms of temp stability during the mash (specifically not overshooting or running my HLT water hotter than desired to make up for losses from the MT). OG was 1.071, fermenting volume was 6 gallons. I used one vial of White Labs Northeast Ale (Conan) stepped up to a 4 L starter (two steps), and aerated with a Fizz-x (instead of the usual O2 stone). Pitch temp was 64F, fermentation bath was kept at 65.5F, and after 3 days I let that rise to 68F.

I don't think there's much I could have done different. Maybe the rise from mast temp to mashout took too long and unfermentables were generated. Maybe add some yeast nutrient to the wort? The first taste from the fermenter was a bit more bitter than I would have chosen, so I think I'll be okay if it's a little sweeter than normal to balance that.

Save some yeast from this batch and brew it again. I'll think you'll be surprised how low FG gets with second generation yeast.

 

[dstar26t]

Took a FG reading after I racked into the keg a week ago. To my surprise it was only down to 1.018. This should have been a pretty fermentable wort. From experience, Cali ale yeast would have got me close to 1.010. Hope it's not too sweet.

Maybe I'll get lucky and it'll drop a couple more points.

Derek of bear-flavored says, "Conan will only ferment cleanly and attenuate for those with the purest of hearts."

Maybe some introspection is in order.

 

[Braufessor]

Save some yeast from this batch and brew it again. I'll think you'll be surprised how low FG gets with second generation yeast.

I agree with this. I have started taking my first generation Conan yeast through a 1.040 - 1.045ish type blonde ale or lightly hopped pale ale. This gives me a chance to harvest quite a few jars of pretty clean yeast. I then use those for my APA's, IPA's, DIPA's, etc... I again hold one of the jars back and brew a blonde/smaller APA and repeat.

I have found these second generation (and beyond) ferments to be much more complete and reach that 1.011-1.014 range.

 

[irishrover32]

I just reached day 10 on my Heady clone on Sunday and the FG was 1.018. This was easily my best batch ever in terms of temp stability during the mash (specifically not overshooting or running my HLT water hotter than desired to make up for losses from the MT). OG was 1.071, fermenting volume was 6 gallons. I used one vial of White Labs Northeast Ale (Conan) stepped up to a 4 L starter (two steps), and aerated with a Fizz-x (instead of the usual O2 stone). Pitch temp was 64F, fermentation bath was kept at 65.5F, and after 3 days I let that rise to 68F.

I don't think there's much I could have done different. Maybe the rise from mast temp to mashout took too long and unfermentables were generated. Maybe add some yeast nutrient to the wort? The first taste from the fermenter was a bit more bitter than I would have chosen, so I think I'll be okay if it's a little sweeter than normal to balance that.

i searched white labs northeast ale and couldn find anything, as far as i know they dont do a conan strain, there's an east coast ale but thats not conan, can you elaborate on this. did you mean yeast bay?

 

[kaz4121]

i searched white labs northeast ale and couldn find anything, as far as i know they dont do a conan strain, there's an east coast ale but thats not conan, can you elaborate on this. did you mean yeast bay?

He likely meant The Yeast Bay (who has their yeast propagated by White Labs)

 

[powermd]

He likely meant The Yeast Bay (who has their yeast propagated by White Labs)

This.

I did save a jar of yeast from the fermentation. My plan was to use it for a repeat attempt at an apricot-peach ale, as I didn't like my last one fermented with 1098. The British fruitiness just doesn't taste like what I want in a summer fruit beer. The big change I'm planning besides the yeast is to do a yeast inactivation in the secondary before I add the fruit so it doesn't get dry and tart.

 

[Juno_Malone]

Just got to this thread for the first time...317 pages, wow. Can someone point me towards the recipe that is generally agreed to be the closest thing to Heady Topper at this point? Thanks!

 

[powermd]

Just got to this thread for the first time...317 pages, wow. Can someone point me towards the recipe that is generally agreed to be the closest thing to Heady Topper at this point? Thanks!

The recipe on the very first page posted by Vegan is the generally agreed upon best one, although there are some who disagree.

Regardless of whether it's an exact clone, the beer is amazing- the best I ever brewed.

 

[ianmatth]

Just got to this thread for the first time...317 pages, wow. Can someone point me towards the recipe that is generally agreed to be the closest thing to Heady Topper at this point? Thanks!

I would say bobbrews post #2967 (should be page 297) is the best at this point.

 

[kvistbrygghus]

Hi,

According to the current best recipe on page 1, the steeping don't add any IBU, which in reality is false.

By adding hopshot to 120IBU, then additional hops, you'll end up close to 200IBU, a bit off the original Heady.

Any tips on how to approach this? Is the best to calculate how much the different hop additions yield, and then use hop shot to obtain a total of 120IBU?

Apologies if this has already been answered, but after reading through quite a few pages, I decided to post a question..

Cheers from Norway

 

[EyePeeA]

The recipe on the very first page posted by Vegan is the generally agreed upon best one, although there are some who disagree.

Generally agreed upon by whom? That attempt is over 2 years old. It produces a fine beer, but it is not a clone for HT... not even close. There are also no boil (hop) additions in Heady.

I would say bobbrews post #2967 (should be page 297) is the best at this point.

Agreed. This recipe is closer to the real thing. The problem is that this is such a complex beer that more tweaking and research is needed. Even bobbrews agreed to that.

 

[Bamsdealer]

Hi,

According to the current best recipe on page 1, the steeping don't add any IBU, which in reality is false.

By adding hopshot to 120IBU, then additional hops, you'll end up close to 200IBU, a bit off the original Heady.

Any tips on how to approach this? Is the best to calculate how much the different hop additions yield, and then use hop shot to obtain a total of 120IBU?

Apologies if this has already been answered, but after reading through quite a few pages, I decided to post a question..

Cheers from Norway

Don't worry about overhopping. The beer will hit it's saturation point below 120 ibus. You really can't tell any difference between 120 and 200 ibus.

 

[Braufessor]

Hi,

According to the current best recipe on page 1, the steeping don't add any IBU, which in reality is false.

By adding hopshot to 120IBU, then additional hops, you'll end up close to 200IBU, a bit off the original Heady.

Any tips on how to approach this? Is the best to calculate how much the different hop additions yield, and then use hop shot to obtain a total of 120IBU?

Apologies if this has already been answered, but after reading through quite a few pages, I decided to post a question..

Cheers from Norway

I like the grainbill. Obviously, conan is the yeast. I have never felt like the hops were really in line with Heady. As mentioned.... you aren't going to get 200IBU's..... no matter how it calculates. You will get some bittering with the whirlpool, depending on how long it sits above 185 or so.

My latest attempt is at about day #7 in the fermenter...... I took the easy way out on the hops. Did the hop shot at 60, and then I took the following hops, put them all in a gallon ziplock, mixed them up thoroughly and basically turned them into a blend, and then added 4 oz. at flame out, 5 oz. in a sub 180 hopstand/steep for 45 minutes. The last 5 ounces I am going to use in a 2 stage dry hop - About 60% went in at day #7 of primary. I will add the last 40% will go in around day #12 or so.
4 oz. simcoe
2 oz. columbus
2 oz. Galaxy
1.5 oz. Amarillo
1.5 oz. Centennial
1 oz. Ahtanum
1 oz. Apollo
1 oz. Comet

Not sure what I will get..... but that is what I tried. Will give it a taste in 3-4 days out of the fermenter.

 

[mtnagel]

Generally agreed upon by whom? That attempt is over 2 years old. It produces a fine beer, but it is not a clone for HT... not even close. There are also no boil (hop) additions in Heady.

Some people get so hung up on this. Our scales are completely different so it makes sense that the process will be different. Just because you don't match one tiny detail of the process, doesn't mean the beers won't be close enough.

I like the grainbill. Obviously, conan is the yeast. I have never felt like the hops were really in line with Heady. As mentioned.... you aren't going to get 200IBU's..... no matter how it calculates. You will get some bittering with the whirlpool, depending on how long it sits above 185 or so.

My latest attempt is at about day #7 in the fermenter...... I took the easy way out on the hops. Did the hop shot at 60, and then I took the following hops, put them all in a gallon ziplock, mixed them up thoroughly and basically turned them into a blend, and then added 4 oz. at flame out, 5 oz. in a sub 180 hopstand/steep for 45 minutes. The last 5 ounces I am going to use in a 2 stage dry hop - About 60% went in at day #7 of primary. I will add the last 40% will go in around day #12 or so.
4 oz. simcoe
2 oz. columbus
2 oz. Galaxy
1.5 oz. Amarillo
1.5 oz. Centennial
1 oz. Ahtanum
1 oz. Apollo
1 oz. Comet

Not sure what I will get..... but that is what I tried. Will give it a taste in 3-4 days out of the fermenter.

That is awesome. I like the simplicity.

 

[VTrider99]

Not sure where to post this, but another beer that home brewers should attempt to clone is Fiddlehead Brewery's Second Fiddle. I sometimes think it's even better than the Heady Topper! less IBU's (80), little more ABV (8.2), lots of citrus, little resin, and pine. Very drinkable. Nothing beats that freshness The Alchemist gets into that can, but sometimes I think Second Fiddle is a little smoother, and taste just as good. Only negative is that it ALOT harder to get. What do you guys think? Just trying to start some conversation. Going to try a variation on the Heady Topper clone posted. Going to add some Nugget, and Mossaic to get some more grassy, resiny, and citrus notes. Also, have some Conan yeast being delivered, just hope the website I got it from is reliable.

 

[rickjames]

I recently had second fiddle and thought the same thing. In my opinion was right there with heady, if not a little better. An excellent beer.

 

[Catphish]

Hey guys I've been reading this post off and on and there's a lot of good stuff on here. I just wanted to point out a few things that I heard on a couple podcasts from John Kimmich himself. He states that Heady Topper is 75 ibus on the Under My Host podcast. Then on The Tap Handle show podcast he says that his wife can't drink beers with wheat so there isn't any wheat in Heady and I believe all his hoppy stuff. I'm not sure if this has been covered in this thread so I apologize if so. Cheers!