Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

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theveganbrewer

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Let's get this great beer cloned. Here is a summary of what is known about the Heady Topper recipe from kaz4121:

Between the HBT and BA threads I’ve summed up all the pertinent information regarding a Heady Topper clone. Keep in mind much of this information is heresay, but I tried to credit the member and link to the page which contains the claim. If I am missing something please let me know, as I think this post has been veered off topic a bit lately.

Anything italicized is linked directly to John Kimmich, his workers, or The Alchemist Brewery in general.

Beer Specs:
Style: American Double India Pale Ale (The Alchemist Brewery website)
OG: ~1.074 (theveganbrewer)
FG: ~1.014 (theveganbrewer) (Johnnyhitch1)
ABV: 8% (The Alchemist Brewery website)
IBU: 120 (The Alchemist Brewery website), 80-90 Rager (bobbrews), 75-80 lab tested (theveganbrewer)
SRM: 4-7 (theveganbrewer, koopa, and Airborneguy)

Malt:
Base: Thomas Fawcett Pearl (bobbrews and nathanjohnson)
Specialty: NO Crystal (theveganbrewer, mmonacel, and sweetcell)
Adjunct: ~5% or less sugar (orthellomcbane and skivtjerry)
*Other possibilities may include: Wheat, Munich, Carapils*

If similar malt bill to El Jefe, could contain Pearl, Caramalt, Carafa Special III (ChrisNH)

Hops:
6 varieties used (theveganbrewer, bobbrews, and Petekiteworld)
Known: Simcoe (bobbrews) Amarillo (theveganbrewer)
Likely: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Cascade, Summit, Nugget
Possible: Riwaka, Moteuka, Ahtanum, Galaxy, Zythos, Apollo
Not used: Citra (bobbrews and theveganbrewer)

Yeast:
Conan Yeast (private strain) (MSNBC article and theveganbrewer)
Yeast culturing: here and here
*Most of aroma comes from yeast (theveganbrewer)*
*Could be ale yeast (theveganbrewer), lager yeast (TapeDeck), belgian yeast (Signpost Brewing and the Mad Fermentationist, or blend (terrapinj)*

Process:
Mash Temperature: < 150F (bobbrews and orthellomcbane) probably a step mash (bobbrews)
Boil: NO FWH (theveganbrewer)
CO2 hop extract for bittering (theveganbrewer, BeerCrafter2011, and mmonacel)
Hop Schedule: All "actual" hops added at 5 minutes or less (theveganbrewer)
Post-boil: Big whirlpool less than 45 minutes (theveganbrewer) (telejunkie via BeerAdvocate)
Fermentation temperature: 71/72F at brewery (Johnnyhitch1) 58F at brewery (Skelator), 68F on sign (theveganbrewer), 60-64F from experience (Knecht_Rupprecht, SkinnyPete, NordeastBrewer77, and orthellomcbane). Chilling row 55F, 48F two days later at the brewery (Johnnyhitch1)
Yeast Attenuation: ~82% (bobbrews, orthellomcbane, Skelator)
Dry-hopping: Double or triple dry-hopped for only several days each (mmonacel)
Hopback: Used prior to packaging (Petekiteworld)
*It is not can-conditioned (LaFinDuMonde),*

Entire length from kettle to can: 28 days Alchemist Blog http://www.alchemistbeer.com/hoppy-holidays/

Similar Beers (to help with recipe formulation?): Lagunitas Hop Stoopid, Ithica Flower Power, Surley Abrasive, Kern River Citra DIPA

Current Best Clone

Current Clone

Heady Topper Clone Recipe Attempt 4 from http://www.signpostbrewing.com/heady-topper-clone-brew-4-0/

Batch Size: 5.00 gal

Boil Size: 6.47

11lb 4oz Pearl Malt (84.9%)- SRM 2.4
12 oz Caramalt (5.7%)- SRM 17
12 oz White Wheat (5.7%)- SRM 1.7
8 oz Turbinado Sugar (3.8%)- Added at flameout.
Mash at 150 degrees for 60 minutes.

Boil Time: 90 min

10.00 ml** *Hopshot- Boil 90.0 min- 117.8 IBUs
1.00 oz*** Simcoe[13.00 %] Boil 5.0 min-8.3 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Apollo- Boil 5.0 min -4.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Columbus [14.00 %] Boil 0.0 min &ndash; 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz** *Simcoe [13.00 %] Boil 0.0 min -0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Columbus [14.00 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min-0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Simcoe [13.00 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min-0.0 IBUs
1.00oz** *Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min-0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Centennial [10.50 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min- 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Apollo [12.50 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min- 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz** *Simcoe [13.00 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days -0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Centennial [10.50 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Apollo [17.00 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs

Split dry hop in half and add half on day 14 and day 21. Carb on day 25.


Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG** *Measured Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG** *Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.8 %** *Actual Alcohol by Vol: 8.5 %
Bitterness: 130.7 IBUs** *Calories: 249.4 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 6.4 SRM

http://www.signpostbrewing.com/heady-topper-clone-brew-4-0/

I know I decided on dry hop day to cut down the Columbus from 1.50 ounce to 1 ounce. I think I also replaced that half ounce with something else, but I can't remember. I remember going up to 0.75 ounces of something in dryhop 1, it was either Amarillo or Centennial. The 2nd stage was 1 oz Simcoe, 0.5 Columbus, 0.5 Amarillo, 0.5 Centennial, and 0.25 Apollo though.

Recipe Resources:

CO2 Hop Extract: Purchase from Northern Brewer, Yakima Valley Hops, Brew Brothers

Pearl Malt: Various Homebrew shops

Conan Yeast: Culturing Conan AKA the Alchemist's Heady Topper Yeast and Culturing Conan Yeast from Heady Topper

Thomas Fawcett Caramalt:

Chicago Brew Works Thomas Fawcett Caramalt 1lb

Brew Brothers

Also, the link on the Brew Brothers hop extract is invalid, it should be

http://www.brewbrothers.biz/Hop-JizzTM
 

DangerRoss

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Dry hopped my clone attempt last night. Opened the fermenter and got kicked in the face with a huge aroma of pineapple and peach.

I am using a ratio of 1 oz Simcoe / 0.5 oz Centennial / 0.5 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) / 0.333 oz Amarillo Gold / 0.333 oz Cascade / 0.333 oz Chinook for my dry hoppings this time around.

For the second dry hopping, I will be doing it is a keg so I can rouse with CO2 every 4-6 hrs and then run it through my hopback on the way to a second keg for carbonating.
 

FATC1TY

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Looking forward to getting my Conan on a plate and getting it going.

So what hops do we KNOW have to be in there?

Simcoe, Cascade, Chinook and Columbus are obvious. Amarillo, Centennial more than likely to round out the 6, no?



Yeast seems to be the defining factor here though.. What temps has everyone fermented at? Do we think that warmer will bring out the sweetness, and if we keep it cooler, it'll allow the sweetness to back off, and the danky bitter piney hops to come forward to balance it out? Sweetness will mask the malty backbone of the beer, which doesn't hide. This is a balanced east coast DIPA, not some out of balanced hop bomb west coast style.
 

Coff

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Updating with my recent attempt. I should be going to round 2 soon.

Tasting Notes:

Burnt orange color, murky, dense 1 finger head with tiny bubble shooting up.

Peachy, orange, grapefruit, pinneapple, huge aroma, it basically engulfed the room even the people not drinking the beer got the aroma.

Not as juicy as heady but tons of fruits, orange, mango,
grapefruit amazingly citrusy. Really awesome.

I think the beer needs more pine, I havent had Heady in a month or so but I remember getting a decent amount of pine. Not overwhelming but it was there. I am thinking about dialing back the Amarillo next time, although good I think it was overpowering some of the other hop flavors. However, I love the beer right now, so I am going to have a hard time changing it, lol.

Overall I think it's a very good DIPA, but not heady.




Note the batch size and scale accordingly.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 5.00 gal
Post Boil Volume: 4.26 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 4.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 3.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.077 SG
Estimated Color: 5.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 105.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 71.9 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 56.5 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 30.4 %
1 lbs Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 8.7 %
8.0 oz Dextrose (Briess) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 4 4.3 %
1.00 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 57.8 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 mins) Other 7 -
1.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 16.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 5.2 IBUs
0.75 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 6.2 IBUs
0.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 5.0 Hop 11 8.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Nugget [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 5.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 6.2 IBUs
2.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Aroma Steep 30. Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Nugget [13.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Aroma St Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Conan (The Alchemist #) Yeast 20 -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Day Hop 21 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Day Hop 22 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 23 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 24 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 25 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 26 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 11 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 14.75 qt of water at 159.5 F 149.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (0.26gal, 2.63gal) of 170.0 F water
Notes:
------
2 seperate dry hops, 3 oz each for 5 days.
 
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theveganbrewer

theveganbrewer

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Looking forward to getting my Conan on a plate and getting it going.

So what hops do we KNOW have to be in there?

Simcoe, Cascade, Chinook and Columbus are obvious. Amarillo, Centennial more than likely to round out the 6, no?



Yeast seems to be the defining factor here though.. What temps has everyone fermented at? Do we think that warmer will bring out the sweetness, and if we keep it cooler, it'll allow the sweetness to back off, and the danky bitter piney hops to come forward to balance it out? Sweetness will mask the malty backbone of the beer, which doesn't hide. This is a balanced east coast DIPA, not some out of balanced hop bomb west coast style.
Low 60s. I think most of us are going off of this blog post about Conan:

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2012/09/culturing-conan-aka-alchemists-heady.html There's a heading for temperature where he talks about what he's observed with the yeast at varying temps.
 
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Looking forward to getting my Conan on a plate and getting it going.

So what hops do we KNOW have to be in there?

Simcoe, Cascade, Chinook and Columbus are obvious. Amarillo, Centennial more than likely to round out the 6, no?
Those were my choices. Gravity samples were very "Heady-like", for lack of a better term. Tropical, peachy, some dankness/pine. I'll taste another sample when I rack here in a bit.

Yeast seems to be the defining factor here though.. What temps has everyone fermented at? Do we think that warmer will bring out the sweetness, and if we keep it cooler, it'll allow the sweetness to back off, and the danky bitter piney hops to come forward to balance it out? Sweetness will mask the malty backbone of the beer, which doesn't hide. This is a balanced east coast DIPA, not some out of balanced hop bomb west coast style.
Definitely a factor. I fermented mine starting at ~61, then let it finish and sit at ~65. I crashed it down to ~52 for a few days before racking onto the first dry hops. FG was ~1.011, though gassy at transfer. I will double check today. Can't speak to the rest as this is my one batch so far, but I can say that the yeast contributed a lot in mine at those temps. :mug:
 
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theveganbrewer

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Attempt 1:

1.071--->1.010
IBU: 120IBU

Mash at 149 for 60 minutes.
11# Pearl, 1# Munich, 8oz Carapils, 8oz Dextrose

Boil for 60 minutes.
6mL of hop extract added at 60 minutes.

@5 min-
1oz Simcoe
1oz Centennial
1oz Columbus
0.5 Chinook
0.5 Cascade
0.25 Nugget

Whirlpool-30 minutes at 170-175 (lower than planned)
1oz Simcoe
1oz Centennial
1oz Columbus
0.5 Chinook

Began two-stage dry hop when yeast had dropped. Each dry hop when in loose for 4 days, roused every 6 hours with co2 into the keg while at 65+ degrees. Each dry hop was 2.5 ounces of 1oz Simcoe, 0.75oz centennial, 0.75oz Columbus.

Notes-

Sat side by side in same kind of glassware, this was identical to the real Heady. Though the finished product will likely differ from what beersmith says, the recipe said "5.7 SRM".

Grapefruit, peach, pinneapple, mango. Very aromatic, lots of fruit.

I also think the beer needs more pine. This attempt was also not bitter enough, possibly due to the low temp on the whirlpool. Grain bill may need a little tweaking, perhaps with oats or wheat. Perhaps I'll have to crack open the new bag of Amarillo?
 

DangerRoss

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Yeast seems to be the defining factor here though.. What temps has everyone fermented at? Do we think that warmer will bring out the sweetness, and if we keep it cooler, it'll allow the sweetness to back off, and the danky bitter piney hops to come forward to balance it out? Sweetness will mask the malty backbone of the beer, which doesn't hide. This is a balanced east coast DIPA, not some out of balanced hop bomb west coast style.
As with Nordeast, this is my first full scale clone attempt. I fermented mine at 62°F and let it raise to 66°F over 3 days. I didn't do a cold crash for my first dry hopping. I read somewhere from Matt Brynildson (FW Brewmaster) that the hops with help drop the yeast from suspension and want to see if dry hopping with some active yeast does anything.

Sunday, I am going to cold crash for 2-3 days before racking onto the second dry hopping in a keg. Once in the keg I'm going to rouse with co2 through the liquid post every 4-6 hours. After 3 days in the keg, I'm going to run it through my hopback into a second keg for carbonating.
 

EyePeeA

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I had myself some fresh Heady Topper this weekend. Seriously considering cloning it.

For a 5.5 gallon batch, I'm thinking:

3-4 oz. hops in the boil (90 min boil is typical for commercial IIPAs)
4 oz. warm & cold hopstand/hopback
6 oz. three-stage, 12 day dryhop

Not including HopShot, which I'm guessing is basic CTZ, the recipe appears to be Simcoe & Columbus heavy with support from Chinook, Nugget, Amarillo, Centennial, Cascade (one too many hop varieties it seems? I would say nix Cascade since it's most similar to Centennial.)

The website doesn't list the actual IBUs. It just says PLENTY. They do list IBUs for other beers referenced at 100 even. So I would assume the theoretical IBUs are much higher than 100, which would point toward a very hefty bittering addition of the HopShot... well over 100 total IBUs.

58-63 F initial fermentation, then raise to 68 F for the dryhop.
28 days grain to glass.

Was the issue of whether Kimmich is using Oat malt or Golden Naked Oats ever addressed? I thought that some kind of oat was a definite.

How about the mash temp? 148 F for 2 hours? I would think that if there was no simple sugars in the recipe, this would certainly help with fermentability and 85% attenuation with Conan. The carapils, wheat, and oats will take care of the body and head retention.
 

FATC1TY

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Nice... Good input here. Appreciate it.

I'll be adding more than my two cents shortly within the next week or two.
 

Xpertskir

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I had myself some fresh Heady Topper this weekend. Seriously considering cloning it.

For a 5.5 gallon batch, I'm thinking:

3-4 oz. hops in the boil (90 min boil is typical for commercial IIPAs)
4 oz. warm & cold hopstand/hopback
6 oz. three-stage, 12 day dryhop

Not including HopShot, which I'm guessing is basic CTZ, the recipe appears to be Simcoe & Columbus heavy with support from Chinook, Nugget, Amarillo, Centennial, Cascade (one too many hop varieties it seems? I would say nix Cascade since it's most similar to Centennial.)

The website doesn't list the actual IBUs. It just says PLENTY. They do list IBUs for other beers referenced at 100 even. So I would assume the theoretical IBUs are much higher than 100, which would point toward a very hefty bittering addition of the HopShot... well over 100 total IBUs.

58-63 F initial fermentation, then raise to 68 F for the dryhop.
28 days grain to glass.

Was the issue of whether Kimmich is using Oat malt or Golden Naked Oats ever addressed? I thought that some kind of oat was a definite.

How about the mash temp? 148 F for 2 hours? I would think that if there was no simple sugars in the recipe, this would certainly help with fermentability. The carapils, wheat, and oats will take care of the body and head retention.

Im using golden oats for my upcoming attempt. To me the body and to a lesser extent malt flavor is similar to Abrasive, which uses golden oats(and brewers crystal, which I would be surprised if it is in HT). I do believe HT has less body and is drier.

Im going 5ish% golden oats and 10ish% corn sugar with the balance being pearl.
 
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theveganbrewer

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I had myself some fresh Heady Topper this weekend. Seriously considering cloning it.

For a 5.5 gallon batch, I'm thinking:

3-4 oz. hops in the boil (90 min boil is typical for commercial IIPAs)
4 oz. warm & cold hopstand/hopback
6 oz. three-stage, 12 day dryhop

Not including HopShot, which I'm guessing is basic CTZ, the recipe appears to be Simcoe & Columbus heavy with support from Chinook, Nugget, Amarillo, Centennial, Cascade (one too many hop varieties it seems? I would say nix Cascade since it's most similar to Centennial.)

The website doesn't list the actual IBUs. It just says PLENTY. They do list IBUs for other beers referenced at 100 even. So I would assume the theoretical IBUs are much higher than 100, which would point toward a very hefty bittering addition of the HopShot... well over 100 total IBUs.

58-63 F initial fermentation, then raise to 68 F for the dryhop.
28 days grain to glass.

Was the issue of whether Kimmich is using Oat malt or Golden Naked Oats ever addressed? I thought that some kind of oat was a definite.

How about the mash temp? 146-148 F for 2 hours? I would think that if there was no simple sugars in the recipe, this would certainly help with fermentability and 85% attenuation with Conan. 5% or less each of carapils, wheat, and oats will take care of the body and head retention.
Have thought about 90 minute boil and naked oats too. Kimmich calculates 120 IBUs and the lab has analyzed the finish product finished with 75-80 after losses during the brew, fermentation, etc. From my two batches, I think somewhere from 70-80IBU from the hop shot works for me. It's going to be brewery dependent though, depends on your setup and whirlpool temp/time. No confirmation on oats one way or another.

I have had Conan go down to below 1.010 and it doesn't seem to need too much help getting down there and up towards 85%+. I've been mashing at 149 for 60 minutes.
 

EyePeeA

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Kimmich calculates 120 IBUs and the lab has analyzed the finish product finished with 75-80 after losses during the brew, fermentation, etc. From my two batches, I think somewhere from 70-80IBU from the hop shot works for me. It's going to be brewery dependent though, depends on your setup and whirlpool temp/time.
It's quite difficult to try to figure out a hop schedule with a recipe builder if we're given all of these IBU figures to work with and can't decide on 60 vs. 90 minute boil times. I think if one were to build a recipe, we would have to base it on 120+ IBUs Tinseth. Which formula do you think Kimmich uses? (tinseth/rager/garetz/other)

Mash at 149 for 60 minutes.
11# Pearl, 1# Munich, 8oz Carapils, 8oz Dextrose

Boil for 60 minutes.
6mL of hop extract added at 60 minutes.
With 6ml HopShot, it appears that you are adding 60 IBUs at boil start for your clone attempt. I was thinking of using more like 8-10 ml at 90 minutes and letting either one of the three (15, 10, or 5 minute) additions do the rest. Then nothing else until whirlpool and dryhop.

I have had Conan go down to below 1.010 and it doesn't seem to need too much help getting down there and up towards 85%+. I've been mashing at 149 for 60 minutes.
Was this also with the 8 oz. Dextrose?
 
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theveganbrewer

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It's quite difficult to try to figure out a hop schedule with a recipe builder if we're given all of these IBU figures to work with and can't decide on 60 vs. 90 minute boil times. I think if one were to build a recipe, we would have to base it on 120+ IBUs Tinseth. Which formula do you think Kimmich uses? (tinseth/rager/garetz/other)

With 6ml HopShot, it appears that you are adding 60 IBUs at boil start for your clone attempt. I was thinking of using more like 8-10 ml at 90 minutes and letting either one of the three (15, 10, or 5 minute) additions do the rest. Then nothing else until whirlpool and dryhop.

Was this also with the 8 oz. Dextrose?
We've got two hop numbers, 120 into the recipe, 75-80 in the can. Those lab IBU numbers don't have an effect on the recipe, they were just given to us by the head brewer. We're never going to figure out the final numbers of bitterness in homebrew, so the recipes are geared towards 120-125 IBU. I don't think we know what formula Kimmich uses. I use Tinseth.


Yes, the hopshot is basically 10IBU per 1mL in this gravity. In my notes you can see I think 7-8ml works for me on bitterness. Yours may be right at more like 8-10. We simply haven't had enough attempts to know right now. I think we've only had maybe 5 real attempts at cloning this, so there is significant work and research still to come, try your ideas and post the results. I'm sure everyone would like to hear your results with more hopshot, it's certainly something I've thought about. Kimmich says he uses extract to get bitterness without all the vegetal mass of hops, he also says that Heady isn't their hoppiest beer. Water profiles can also alter bitterness perception a lot.

Kimmich has said he does the extract for bittering, then no additions until 5 minutes. Then whirlpool. Up to you if you want to work within those constraints or go in another direction.
 

PissyFingers

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Hi all!

Im from New Zealand and last night was talking to the head brewer at a Brew Pub here in Hamilton and he used to work with a guy over in a brewery in the U.S that knows the guys from alchemistbeer. He was saying that they deal direct with NZ hops and he reckons they use an extract blend of all NZ hops
(obviously a secret blend) for all the boil additions and then dry hopped with pellets. He wasn't sure the origin of the pellet hops. Just going of what i was told... not sure if that's any help to you at all! :confused:
 

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if someone can ship me a vial of conan to attempt a clone, i'll pay the shipping fees
 

mewithstewpid

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PissyFingers said:
Hi all!

Im from New Zealand and last night was talking to the head brewer at a Brew Pub here in Hamilton and he used to work with a guy over in a brewery in the U.S that knows the guys from alchemistbeer. He was saying that they deal direct with NZ hops and he reckons they use an extract blend of all NZ hops
(obviously a secret blend) for all the boil additions and then dry hopped with pellets. He wasn't sure the origin of the pellet hops. Just going of what i was told... not sure if that's any help to you at all! :confused:
Woah dropping a bombshell with the possible NZ hops
 
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theveganbrewer

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I'm just going to post this as it references the enzymes talked about on page 2 and the NZ hops, possibly. Maybe some folks can decipher some tidbits of info from the post. This is a blog post by John Kimmich, the brewer.

The Heady Topper has kicked and I don&#8217;t know if it will be back before it is out in cans. Its next appearance might coincide with its debut. I played around with the malt bill a lot over the last three batches. For the most part, the drinkers knew nothing of these changes, but it was very interesting. I started these experiments because of the 2010/2011 barley crop coming out of England .

Last summers weather created problems with these barleys, mostly with haze forming properties. You may have noticed the increased haze in most of my beers. This problem becomes magnified when you brew a strong and highly hopped beer. There were three test batches. One of the batches was made with Maris Otter malt. I liked it well enough, but it lacked the crispness of the Pearl malt I usually use. The next batch was made with Great Western Pale Malt. This one I hated. It had hints of the &#8220;sweet&#8221; malt flavor that I find so prominent in a lot of interpretations of this style. The third batch was brewed with my usual base malt, Pearl , but I added an enzyme to the mash which breaks up beta-glucan. This beer had the best flavor, but the enzyme had no effect on the level of haze in the finished beer.

All of this playing around answered a very big question for me in this whole canning thing. What am I going to do about the level of haze in the Heady Topper when I put it in cans? Nothing. I will not change the flavor of one of my favorite beers just to conform to some idea that a beer should be clear. You put two IPA&#8217;s down in front of me, one is hazy, and one is crystal clear. I would instinctually go for the hazy beer. I have personally witnessed GREAT beers go to hell as soon as they started to filter their beer. It changes it so much, that I would rather people get some chunky sediment in their beer, than force them to drink a lifeless shadow of what it once was; a great beer.. The beer will be hazier than I would like until we get this summers crop, in late fall. So be it. I just fell in love with the British malt under all those American hops a long time ago.
 

eandersen

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Granted its been a while since I've had a heady but it wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if there was galaxy in there. Had a hill farmstead double galaxy from a generous bud recently and the absolute juiciness of that beer really reminded me of that one aspect of heady. That being said no idea what the double galaxy was fermented with, could totally have been Conan for all I know
 
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Hi all!

Im from New Zealand and last night was talking to the head brewer at a Brew Pub here in Hamilton and he used to work with a guy over in a brewery in the U.S that knows the guys from alchemistbeer. He was saying that they deal direct with NZ hops and he reckons they use an extract blend of all NZ hops
(obviously a secret blend) for all the boil additions and then dry hopped with pellets. He wasn't sure the origin of the pellet hops. Just going of what i was told... not sure if that's any help to you at all! :confused:
Nelson Sauvin?

I think the can says American hops. The plot thickens.
 
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So, not to get away from the technical aspect of this recipe... all good stuff going on here on this thread. But I was lucky enough to score something today that'll definitely help with this recipe (and many others)


HPIM2041.jpg

I know at least one of you is also using this, Danger, I think hitting the beer with a hopback on the cold side is pretty key to the whole thing.
 

libeerty

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Here is a recipe I'm brewing in a week or two. Inspired more by Heady than a direct clone attempt, but it will help me zero in on a few things/give me a tasty DIPA. I'll report back if it contributes here:

5.5 gallons

10.5 Lbs. Pale Ale Malt
1.5 Lbs. Munich Malt
1.5 Lbs. Wheat Malt
.5 Lbs. Carapils
.75 Lbs. Dextrose

1.75 oz Columbus 14% FWH

3 .00 oz Amarillo Aroma Steep @ 170F
3 .00 oz Cascade Aroma Steep @ 170F
3 .00 oz Centennial Aroma Steep @ 170F
3 .00 oz Columbus Aroma Steep @ 170F
3 .00 oz Simcoe Aroma Steep @ 170F

2.00 oz Amarillo Dry Hop 5 Days
2.00 oz Cascade Dry Hop 5 Days
2.00 oz Centennial Dry Hop 5 Days
2.00 oz Columbus Dry Hop 5 Days
2.00 oz Simcoe Dry Hop 5 Days

Conan Yeast @ 64F

OG 1.074
IBU 78.7
SRM 6.4
Alc % 8.0

FG: 1.011
 

libeerty

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Nelson Sauvin?

I think the can says American hops. The plot thickens.
I have some Sauvin hops.. maybe I will add them to the recipe above. I'm not sure if I've tasted Sauvin in it, but could easily be hidden by the 5 other hops. I'm VT bound in a few weeks, so I will see.. tough to base it on my memories...

Also, not sure if anyone in this thread is from MA, but.. Although HT isn't officially distributed in MA yet, the Eastern Standard restaurant always has it off-menu. They send a barback up to buy some every few weeks.
 

cscade

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Is it possible that the hop extract is NZ sourced and all the finishing hops are American? I can see them getting away with the labeling that way.

In any case, I agree with the motion others have suggested that the extract may not be as relevant as we think. In a production capacity I can clearly see the logic, but I'm not sure it's lending character to the beer that we as home brewers can't get from whole/pellet hops. It's my understanding that modern CO2 extracts are so similar to the "real thing" that they may as well be equivalent when it comes to bittering.
 

EyePeeA

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Would bittering with an NZ hop extract blend at 90/60 offer noticeably different flavor results compared to using the typical CTZ hop extract? I don't believe actual NZ hops are in the recipe, but I could believe HT is bittered with NZ hop extract. It would certainly make it harder to clone if flavor was a factor and if the blend was specifically made for Kimmich.
 

cscade

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Here's some details from Dave Green's "heady topper inspired" DIPA from this issue of BYO. He is definitely focusing on the whirlpool aspect hard.

Feel free to ignore details (malt bill, Citra...) I'm just posting this for reference.

OVER THE TOPPER DIPA
Dave Green - BYO Magazine Vol 19 Number 2

Post boil volume: 6.5 Gallons
Boil length: 75 minutes
Mash temp: 155F
Mash duration: 40 minutes

OG = 1.074
FG = 1.012
IBU = 100+
SRM = 6
ABV = 8%

Grist
  • 13lbs British pale ale malt
  • 4oz Caravienne
  • 1lb Sucrose

Hop Schedule
  • 19.5 AAU Simcoe, boiled 30 minutes
  • 5.75 AAU Cascade, at flameout
  • 17.2 AAU Apollo, at flameout
  • 13 AAU Simcoe at flameout
  • --- start whirlpool ---
  • --- after 30 minutes, reduce wort temp to 170F ---
  • 10.5 AAU Centennial, 30 minutes into whirlpool
  • 13 AAU Simcoe, 30 minutes into whirlpool
  • 14 AAU Columbus, 30 minutes into whirlpool
  • --- whirlpool for a further 15 minutes (45 minutes total + time for reducing to 170F I guess)---

Dry Hopping
  • 1oz Chinook, dry hop 1
  • 1oz Citra, dry hop 1
  • 1oz Simcoe, dry hop 1
  • --- hold 7 days, then rack off hops ---
  • 1.25oz Centennial, dry hop 2
  • 1.25oz Simcoe, dry hop 2
  • --- hold 5 days ---
 

FATC1TY

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I seriously doubt there is NZ hops in there.

Cost is one, and Nelson is a pretty over the top hop, that lends a flavor I haven't, or can't remember in HT. Galaxy is a fantastic hop, and I could see where it could go in there, but it's literally like Citra just about, and there is no Citra in HT.

Oh, and thanks for the Conan, VB. I'm excited to give this a go. Only thing I need now is a can of HT it's self to have to compare when I brew this!
 
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I just read that a Heady Clone will be making it into the March/April 2013 issue of BYO. Well, it says a recipe inspired by Heady.

http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/products/Brew-Your-Own-March-2013.html
That's pretty exciting, man!! Looking forward to that read, I wonder if they're just borrowing from all the internet chatter or if they've actually made some head(y)way. :D

As for the NZ hops, I'm thinking no. Cost, for one, would be astronomical. Availability would be even more sketchy than that of the hot ticket US hops. Both of those things are something a brewery the size of Alchemist would be looking to avoid. Also, I don't recall anything in the hops character of the beer that made my palate think "NZ" hops, or southern hemi hops at all.
 

eandersen

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libeerty said:
I have some Sauvin hops.. maybe I will add them to the recipe above. I'm not sure if I've tasted Sauvin in it, but could easily be hidden by the 5 other hops. I'm VT bound in a few weeks, so I will see.. tough to base it on my memories...

Also, not sure if anyone in this thread is from MA, but.. Although HT isn't officially distributed in MA yet, the Eastern Standard restaurant always has it off-menu. They send a barback up to buy some every few weeks.
I may just have to go eat at Eastern Standard tonight...
 

FermentNEthinG

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Stepping up the conan starter today to 1500 ml. The yeast smells very peachy at this point and I am liking how vigorous the yeast is working. ;)

Will definitely implement the whirlpool when brew time comes. I am just waiting on my pound of columbus, can of extract and this next starter step up and then it is on.

@NordeastBrewer - Can't wait to see the results you get from the hop rocket, Maybe it is about high time I bust mine out of the box and see.


I was thinking about hooking up the chugger pump and have the wort pulled through the filtered bottom valve, through the hop rocket and up to the whirlpool port on the kettle. This way I can keep firing the kettle as needed till it is time to go to cooling in the whirlpool cycle. Hopefully this will get me close....or even work. Gonna have to do a test run this weekend if I can get some free time. :ban:
 

TyTanium

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Good thread guys, the recipe looks awesome, even if it's not a perfect clone yet.

One thought that crossed my mind is dry hop temp. Whenever I dry hop cold with Cascade I get more of a stone fruit / peachy aroma instead of grapefruit. I know you've said you get peachy from the yeast, and I seriously doubt a commercial brewer would DH cold (takes too long), but figured I'd throw it out there anyway.
 

Xpertskir

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Just tasted a gravity sample of my american wheat, first use of my conan. Holy ****...the yeast flavor is so pleasant, and so supportive of the hop character. Its an all amarillo beer and the two play together very well.
 

libeerty

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Just tasted a gravity sample of my american wheat, first use of my conan. Holy ****...the yeast flavor is so pleasant, and so supportive of the hop character. Its an all amarillo beer and the two play together very well.
Very cool! I have a pale ale fermenting now that I used Conan and Simcoe in... this weekend, I'm going to test the gravity to see how they play together. Can't wait!
 

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