Grape flavor in German beer?

[Jayjay1976]

I have picked up on that flavor too but to me it tastes kinda like Smarties. Never noticed it in any of my homebrews.

 

[gunhaus]

Let me see if I understand you correctly..
Your sides ideas and theories are fine but those from the LoDO crowd are just proselytizing and therefore of no value? Ignoring certain possibilities is quite the opposite of 'seeing' the question at hand.

P.S. You don't think that LAB and other micro organisms live on North American grain as well?

Again - as usual from the evangelicals we see zero observation and maximum indignation. I have NO THEORIES. I have offered NO SIDE IDEAS> I simply pointed out that I get these wonderful flavors in ales as well as lagers. And that I would be curious to see what others thought caused it. That DOES include whatn the low oxygen proponents have to say. My shade toward the LoDO component comes from the indignant way they seem to dictate that THEY have solved it all, and THEY have the answer, and THEY will lead us to the light and the glory of oxygen free spiritual bliss. And if we do not convert then we are little more than base heathens brewing swill.

 

[Bilsch]

You already told us you had no problem. Carry on, we shall.

You guys were moving on with your grapethink thread and I was completely fine to stay on the sidelines until someone invariably invokes the name LoDO, then others cast some aspersions based on a guy from ancient history and the cycle repeats.

 

[dmtaylor]

You guys were moving on with your grapethink thread and I was completely fine to stay on the sidelines until someone invariably invokes the name LoDO, then others cast some aspersions based on a guy from ancient history and the cycle repeats.

He'll never be ancient history when apostles continue to find it necessary to testify in a similar manner. Indeed the cycle repeats.

I'm not anti-LODO. I'm sure it does *something*. What exactly, I do not yet know. Most of us don't know, and maybe don't care to know. As such, we don't see a need to defend it or discuss it at nauseum. The acronym has become a trigger word and kiss of death for thousands of threads. So here we are, talking about it, AGAIN.....

 

[dmtaylor]

Great timing in this thread-
I’m wondering if this is the same thing I describe as a pear ester. I only get it on lighter hopped lagers.
I’m wondering if it’s grain sweetness?
I really get loads of this flavor/ester when I drink Peters Brand Dutch lager. I’ve never gotten this in my home brews.
Most craft pilsners have a pretty high ibu, and I’m wondering if that covers up the grain or adjunct sweetness.

I suppose it might be detected as pear to some palates. To me, it is clearly grape. I do get pear from certain hops (Calypso), and from some Belgian yeasts. I pick up pear and grape differently. But, I suppose these are both esters, so maybe it's possible to confuse one for the other.

Too much of any hop will likely cover up the grape. Except where/meanwhile a hop like Nelson makes its own grape.

And um... I don't get Smarties in German bears.

 

[Bilsch]

He'll never be ancient history when apostles continue to find it necessary to testify in a similar manner. Indeed the cycle repeats.

Then why do you guys keep bringing up LoDO? I mean we were talking about sauergut. He really must have gotten under your skin. Time to let all that go, don't you think?

 

[Jayjay1976]

You guys were moving on with your grapethink thread and I was completely fine to stay on the sidelines until someone invariably invokes the name LoDO, then others cast some aspersions based on a guy from ancient history and the cycle repeats.

Snowflake

 

[Jayjay1976]

And um... I don't get Smarties in German bears.

 

[Miraculix]

Then why do you guys keep bringing up LoDO? I mean we were talking about sauergut. He really must have gotten under your skin. Time to let all that go, don't you think?

Can you please turn it down there a notch? I am trying to follow the discussion about German bears. Thanks!

 

[bionicbelly]

Then why do you guys keep bringing up LoDO? I mean we were talking about sauergut. He really must have gotten under your skin. Time to let all that go, don't you think?

" * LODO (I have very serious doubts, as friends skip this but still get grape) "
This is how it was "brought up". So not at all really. and yet here you are.

As far as the german grape flavor, I taste in in commercial german beers, and love it. I've gotten it in one marzen that I brewed. Warm fermented 34/70. I have temp control now, and haven't gotten that flavor again. I am going to be doing a fairly long run of german lagers in the next month though, so maybe something good will happen.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm imagining chewing on a white grape and still having troubles to connect this to any beer I've tasted.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm imagining chewing on a white grape and still having troubles to connect this to any beer I've tasted.

Can you find something like THIS in your supermarket? THIS is what I am talking about. The flavor is more concentrated than just by eating the grapes alone.

 

[bionicbelly]

I think some people have different perceptions of it. But for me, it is 100% welch's white grape.

 

[AzOr]

Back to the original topic…….
I picked up what I call a pear ester, could be the same as what the op mentioned, in a local craft lager. I emailed the company and to my surprise the head brewer responded. He didn’t quite know what I was referring to but gave me a couple of tips-
- they use 34/70 in the upper 50s
- they use Simpson’s Golden naked oats

He suggested that I may be picking up on grain sweetness. It makes sense to me. Usually I brew pilsners at a higher ibu, so I’m probably covering up a grain sweetness. And I don’t use oats, rice or flaked corn. I’m gonna try using Imperial’s version on my next lager, dropping ibu’s, and using corn or oats.

Btw- I have used Nelson hops in the past and I get the white grape/wine thing.

Btw2- Super cool of the brewer to respond w helpful tips

Btw3- I get the pear thing from- Peters Brand Dutch lager, a little from Heineken (although it’s been a while since I had one). I also got from Weinhard’s reserve (RIP).

 

[ebbelwoi]

Is this the same white grape/wine that people get from WLP029?

 

[balrog]

I've gotten it in one marzen that I brewed. Warm fermented 34/70.

I tried two warm ferment 34/70 that had the white grape / pear / peach ester.

 

[Cammanron]

Can you find something like THIS in your supermarket? THIS is what I am talking about. The flavor is more concentrated than just by eating the grapes alone.

View attachment 755362View attachment 755363

I get it.... it's always from the crisp German pilsners. AND I would also describe it as like an ice wine flavour with no sweetness

 

[bionicbelly]

I tried two warm ferment 34/70 that had the white grape / pear / peach ester.

Maybe this is a thing.

 

[couchsending]

Highly suggest trying malts other than Weyermann (or Avangard or Best). Weyermann exports 90% of their malt, they’ve convinced everyone you need to use it to make German beer when not many German breweries actually use it.

I’ve experienced the grape character from breweries not using sauergut or lodo practices. I do believe it’s lactic acid related but you don’t need sauergut to produce it. A large addition of lactic acid at the end of the boil to get KO ph to 5.0 (or under) plus good malt and a cold clean lager ferment will get you there.

 

[Bilsch]

Is this the same white grape/wine that people get from WLP029?

For me there is a distinct difference in the white wine notes from a Koelsch and the white grape flavor sometimes found in German beers. If that makes any sense.

 

[Bilsch]

I’ve experienced the grape character from breweries not using sauergut or lodo practices. I do believe it’s lactic acid related but you don’t need sauergut to produce it. A large addition of lactic acid at the end of the boil to get KO ph to 5.0 (or under) plus good malt and a cold clean lager ferment will get you there.

Most users of SG do a large addition at the end of boil so possibly it is also related to the pH at the start of the ferment, less yeast derived biological acids etc.

 

[AzOr]

Funny timing-
I was just listening to an episode of Brulosophy and on the one minute beer review segment they were discussing a "white grape thing". Marshall said he gets this flavor when he uses high amounts of Weyerman Barke malt in a pale lager. Nothing was mentioned about yeast characteristics or temp.

I didn't catch everything on the podcast, so excuse me if I got something incorrect. After all, I was driving.

 

[user 263363]

So I found this thread while searching for what I thought was an off flavor in my Helles. For what it’s worth it’s 90% Weyermann Pilsner and 10% Carahell. I warm fermented with 34/70 and served from the same keg it fermented in. This beer has a distinct grape flavor to it. Of course, my first thought was it was some sort of off flavor, but maybe it’s appropriate? Who knows, but it is quite a good beer. I just can’t get it to pour with a head worth a damn.

 

[Franktalk]

It is definitely the Weyermann pilsner malt. It has been debated in this thread, but last week I was mashing a maibock with 67% Weyerman pilsner and 33% Weyermann light Munich and I could smell a distinct grape aroma in the mash, no yeast no hops yet. I had suspected the Weyermann pilsner because of other similarly based beers, but now I am convinced that that is what is causing it. By the way, I love it.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I just can’t get it to pour with a head worth a damn.

View attachment 761268

Maybe try taking the straw out before you refill?

 

[monkeymath]

It is definitely the Weyermann pilsner malt. It has been debated in this thread, but last week I was mashing a maibock with 67% Weyerman pilsner and 33% Weyermann light Munich and I could smell a distinct grape aroma in the mash, no yeast no hops yet. I had suspected the Weyermann pilsner because of other similarly based beers, but now I am convinced that that is what is causing it. By the way, I love it.

Interesting. I'm currently fermenting my first beer with a pilsner malt *not* coming from Weyermann. I'm not really sure what grape flavour all you guys are talking about, but if this beer comes out decidedly "un-grape-y", I'll know

 

[Miraculix]

I think I start getting an idea of what you guys mean with grape flavour. I think I would call it pilsner malt flavour, if we are thinking about the same flavour.

 

[bionicbelly]

It is definitely the Weyermann pilsner malt. It has been debated in this thread, but last week I was mashing a maibock with 67% Weyerman pilsner and 33% Weyermann light Munich and I could smell a distinct grape aroma in the mash, no yeast no hops yet. I had suspected the Weyermann pilsner because of other similarly based beers, but now I am convinced that that is what is causing it. By the way, I love it.

I don't think that is the "it" factor. I use weyermann malts for the majority of my base malts, and did a pilsner with 100% weyerman pilsner malt, and did not get the grape flavor (using wyeast 2278 czech pils yeast).
I'd be interested to hear the rest of your Maibock details. Mash, yeast, fermentation temp, etc.
I just ordered some more 34/70. It's the only yeast I've gotten the grape flavor with. That was in a marzen with 40% vienna, 40% munich, and 20% pilsner, all weyermann. It was warm fermented with 34/70. I have re-brewed this twice now, once with 34/70 at lager temps, and once with omega bayern lager yeast. Neither of those had the grape flavor, and I want it back.

 

[Franktalk]

I don't think that is the "it" factor. I use weyermann malts for the majority of my base malts, and did a pilsner with 100% weyerman pilsner malt, and did not get the grape flavor (using wyeast 2278 czech pils yeast).
I'd be interested to hear the rest of your Maibock details. Mash, yeast, fermentation temp, etc.
I just ordered some more 34/70. It's the only yeast I've gotten the grape flavor with. That was in a marzen with 40% vienna, 40% munich, and 20% pilsner, all weyermann. It was warm fermented with 34/70. I have re-brewed this twice now, once with 34/70 at lager temps, and once with omega bayern lager yeast. Neither of those had the grape flavor, and I want it back.

No, I don't think it is "it" either. I'm not a LODOer, though I do incorporate many of their common sense processes. Most notably here is that I do not boil the snot out of my beers. I boil with the wort covered completely (with a condenser) so the wort is just rolling. Other Lodo processes, such as underletting probably help to retain the character as well. So, you may want to rethink your whole process.

This last time, with the maibock, I noticed it during the mash, so no yeast, hops or fermentation. The Maibock, by the way is exactly as I said with 67% Weyermann pilsner and 33% Weyermann Munich light. I use two packets of s-189 rehydrated, and it is hopped with a bittering charge from Mandarina Bavaria and finished with Hersbrucker. It was single infusion mashed at 156F and fermented at 55F for a week or so, and brought up slowly to 62F to complete it, two weeks in all. It is in the keg now and conditioning where it will stay until April at the earliest.

Though I don't think the flavor/aroma comes from the yeast, I am pretty sure the yeast and fermentation can probably make or break it. I have gotten it with both the s-189 and Lalbrew Koln.

 

[user 263363]

I just wanted to give an update to my experience with the “grape” flavor. I just poured a pint of the Helles and it’s my first drink of the day and I can say the grape flavor is gone. I made the post about tasting it on March 1st and it is now the 27th. All I’m tasting now is grainy goodness.