I'm imagining chewing on a white grape and still having troubles to connect this to any beer I've tasted.
Grape flavor in German beer?
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Can you find something like THIS in your supermarket? THIS is what I am talking about. The flavor is more concentrated than just by eating the grapes alone.
I think some people have different perceptions of it. But for me, it is 100% welch's white grape.
Back to the original topic…….
I picked up what I call a pear ester, could be the same as what the op mentioned, in a local craft lager. I emailed the company and to my surprise the head brewer responded. He didn’t quite know what I was referring to but gave me a couple of tips-
- they use 34/70 in the upper 50s
- they use Simpson’s Golden naked oats
He suggested that I may be picking up on grain sweetness. It makes sense to me. Usually I brew pilsners at a higher ibu, so I’m probably covering up a grain sweetness. And I don’t use oats, rice or flaked corn. I’m gonna try using Imperial’s version on my next lager, dropping ibu’s, and using corn or oats.
Btw- I have used Nelson hops in the past and I get the white grape/wine thing.
Btw2- Super cool of the brewer to respond w helpful tips
Btw3- I get the pear thing from- Peters Brand Dutch lager, a little from Heineken (although it’s been a while since I had one). I also got from Weinhard’s reserve (RIP).
I picked up what I call a pear ester, could be the same as what the op mentioned, in a local craft lager. I emailed the company and to my surprise the head brewer responded. He didn’t quite know what I was referring to but gave me a couple of tips-
- they use 34/70 in the upper 50s
- they use Simpson’s Golden naked oats
He suggested that I may be picking up on grain sweetness. It makes sense to me. Usually I brew pilsners at a higher ibu, so I’m probably covering up a grain sweetness. And I don’t use oats, rice or flaked corn. I’m gonna try using Imperial’s version on my next lager, dropping ibu’s, and using corn or oats.
Btw- I have used Nelson hops in the past and I get the white grape/wine thing.
Btw2- Super cool of the brewer to respond w helpful tips
Btw3- I get the pear thing from- Peters Brand Dutch lager, a little from Heineken (although it’s been a while since I had one). I also got from Weinhard’s reserve (RIP).
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I tried two warm ferment 34/70 that had the white grape / pear / peach ester.
I get it.... it's always from the crisp German pilsners. AND I would also describe it as like an ice wine flavour with no sweetness
Maybe this is a thing.
couchsending
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Highly suggest trying malts other than Weyermann (or Avangard or Best). Weyermann exports 90% of their malt, they’ve convinced everyone you need to use it to make German beer when not many German breweries actually use it.
I’ve experienced the grape character from breweries not using sauergut or lodo practices. I do believe it’s lactic acid related but you don’t need sauergut to produce it. A large addition of lactic acid at the end of the boil to get KO ph to 5.0 (or under) plus good malt and a cold clean lager ferment will get you there.
I’ve experienced the grape character from breweries not using sauergut or lodo practices. I do believe it’s lactic acid related but you don’t need sauergut to produce it. A large addition of lactic acid at the end of the boil to get KO ph to 5.0 (or under) plus good malt and a cold clean lager ferment will get you there.
Bilsch
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For me there is a distinct difference in the white wine notes from a Koelsch and the white grape flavor sometimes found in German beers. If that makes any sense.
Bilsch
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Most users of SG do a large addition at the end of boil so possibly it is also related to the pH at the start of the ferment, less yeast derived biological acids etc.
Funny timing-
I was just listening to an episode of Brulosophy and on the one minute beer review segment they were discussing a "white grape thing". Marshall said he gets this flavor when he uses high amounts of Weyerman Barke malt in a pale lager. Nothing was mentioned about yeast characteristics or temp.
I didn't catch everything on the podcast, so excuse me if I got something incorrect. After all, I was driving.
I was just listening to an episode of Brulosophy and on the one minute beer review segment they were discussing a "white grape thing". Marshall said he gets this flavor when he uses high amounts of Weyerman Barke malt in a pale lager. Nothing was mentioned about yeast characteristics or temp.
I didn't catch everything on the podcast, so excuse me if I got something incorrect. After all, I was driving.
user 263363
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So I found this thread while searching for what I thought was an off flavor in my Helles. For what it’s worth it’s 90% Weyermann Pilsner and 10% Carahell. I warm fermented with 34/70 and served from the same keg it fermented in. This beer has a distinct grape flavor to it. Of course, my first thought was it was some sort of off flavor, but maybe it’s appropriate? Who knows, but it is quite a good beer. I just can’t get it to pour with a head worth a damn.
Franktalk
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It is definitely the Weyermann pilsner malt. It has been debated in this thread, but last week I was mashing a maibock with 67% Weyerman pilsner and 33% Weyermann light Munich and I could smell a distinct grape aroma in the mash, no yeast no hops yet. I had suspected the Weyermann pilsner because of other similarly based beers, but now I am convinced that that is what is causing it. By the way, I love it.
monkeymath
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Interesting. I'm currently fermenting my first beer with a pilsner malt *not* coming from Weyermann. I'm not really sure what grape flavour all you guys are talking about, but if this beer comes out decidedly "un-grape-y", I'll know
I think I start getting an idea of what you guys mean with grape flavour. I think I would call it pilsner malt flavour, if we are thinking about the same flavour.
I don't think that is the "it" factor. I use weyermann malts for the majority of my base malts, and did a pilsner with 100% weyerman pilsner malt, and did not get the grape flavor (using wyeast 2278 czech pils yeast).
I'd be interested to hear the rest of your Maibock details. Mash, yeast, fermentation temp, etc.
I just ordered some more 34/70. It's the only yeast I've gotten the grape flavor with. That was in a marzen with 40% vienna, 40% munich, and 20% pilsner, all weyermann. It was warm fermented with 34/70. I have re-brewed this twice now, once with 34/70 at lager temps, and once with omega bayern lager yeast. Neither of those had the grape flavor, and I want it back.
Franktalk
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No, I don't think it is "it" either. I'm not a LODOer, though I do incorporate many of their common sense processes. Most notably here is that I do not boil the snot out of my beers. I boil with the wort covered completely (with a condenser) so the wort is just rolling. Other Lodo processes, such as underletting probably help to retain the character as well. So, you may want to rethink your whole process.
This last time, with the maibock, I noticed it during the mash, so no yeast, hops or fermentation. The Maibock, by the way is exactly as I said with 67% Weyermann pilsner and 33% Weyermann Munich light. I use two packets of s-189 rehydrated, and it is hopped with a bittering charge from Mandarina Bavaria and finished with Hersbrucker. It was single infusion mashed at 156F and fermented at 55F for a week or so, and brought up slowly to 62F to complete it, two weeks in all. It is in the keg now and conditioning where it will stay until April at the earliest.
Though I don't think the flavor/aroma comes from the yeast, I am pretty sure the yeast and fermentation can probably make or break it. I have gotten it with both the s-189 and Lalbrew Koln.
user 263363
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I just wanted to give an update to my experience with the “grape” flavor. I just poured a pint of the Helles and it’s my first drink of the day and I can say the grape flavor is gone. I made the post about tasting it on March 1st and it is now the 27th. All I’m tasting now is grainy goodness.
In the new June-July issue of Craft Beer & Brewing magazine, head brewer Daniel Carey from New Glarus is giving his "pick six" beer choices and he describes Kulmbacher Edelherb PIls this way:
"I have a soft spot for Kulmbacher Reichelbräu Pils, these days sold as Edelherb. I drank a lot of it during the cold winter of 1997 in Selb, near the Czech border. At that time, Reichelbräu Pils was made with Alexis barley--a clean, grapey malt. Alexis was a breakthrough for German breeders....."
I honestly can't say I've noticed that flavor myself (I don' think my palate is that refined), but another data point for those of you on the quest for that grape flavor.
"I have a soft spot for Kulmbacher Reichelbräu Pils, these days sold as Edelherb. I drank a lot of it during the cold winter of 1997 in Selb, near the Czech border. At that time, Reichelbräu Pils was made with Alexis barley--a clean, grapey malt. Alexis was a breakthrough for German breeders....."
I honestly can't say I've noticed that flavor myself (I don' think my palate is that refined), but another data point for those of you on the quest for that grape flavor.
If you haven't picked up on the grape character in Kulmbacher Reichelbräu Pils, you clearly have an abysmal palate, and furthermore, a hastily carved jack-o-lantern with a pink pearl eraser for a tongue would handily put you to shame.
Shame.
.
I meant in general I’ve never noticed it. I’ve never had that beer but I am going to seek it out and look for that grape flavor.
Yeah TBH me neither. I get more of a split pea/lentil impression from what I assume others are descibing as 'grapey'...
I lived in Germany for some years and this character alone is how I would pick out authentic German pilseners.
I drink a lot of Rauchbiers so I’m more looking for that ham and bean soup thing myself.
There is a rauchbier fanatic here somewhere, he's full of great info...
@Schlenkerla
Haven't seen him in a while, hope he's okay.
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I think I know what you are talking about with the pea/lentil thing. This is a different character entirely from the grape.
Well damn now I think my palate is numb.
I've brewed with hallertau blanc several times and have picked up on the white wine notes it brings, could it be that the grapey thing is a hops flavor?
Don't you worry, you're not alone. I get tons of pea/lentil flavours but have yet to find a single grape in my beer.... And I'm German. I thought I had it once, but I think it was just the grainy flavour, not the grape. I don't know.... It's the mystery flavour everybody can use when tasting something which is completely out of context
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Even the Hallertau Blanc and Nelson Sauvin grapey flavors are not the same as I get from certain German lagers. The grapiest flavor is not from hops but from malt or yeast... or bacteria?! which would no doubt be prior to boil, no longer present in the finished beer, not "contaminated".
Which beer is the grapiest to you?
I dunno. It's more like they either have it, or they don't. Many many German lagers have this character, but often it's even from fresh American versions. Gordon Biersch Golden Export springs to mind. Cigar City Lager has it. There were several I found in Charlotte, NC; the grapiest one there was Town Brewing's Soma Pils. The lagers from Indeed Brewing have got it. Copper State Kupfer Kolsch is a local one from Green Bay, WI packed with grapey. I am finding hidden gems scattered all over the USA. Most beer nerds don't seem to care about grapey. I actively seek these out. I try the palest lager every place I go in the hopes that it's got "it". About 7/8 of them don't, but 1/8 do. Somewhere in that ballpark, for American versions. From Germany, it's closer to maybe 1/4 to 1/3 that have it, the rest do not.
Which German one does definitely have it?
As a Germen you'll understand what I mean even better, that flavor is more specifically reminiscent of erbswurst.
Had to check my notes... the only one where I definitely said "grapey" in my tasting notes was Veltins Pilsener. I know I've tasted grape many many times but just never usually write it down.
A buddy of mine got me a German Beer Advent calendar last year and many had this common flavor.
For whatever reason I adopted the term "vinous" for this flavor because there was some aspect that reminded me of white wine, but sweet. Looking back at my Untappd, I would tag them with "sweet".
I am guessing that this the flavor that is the subject of this thread and "grape" makes much more sense.
For whatever reason I adopted the term "vinous" for this flavor because there was some aspect that reminded me of white wine, but sweet. Looking back at my Untappd, I would tag them with "sweet".
I am guessing that this the flavor that is the subject of this thread and "grape" makes much more sense.
I'll buy one and see if I can figure this one out finally, thanks!
We should create a new thread about how to wurst-infuse a cold brew coffee vanilla milkshake stout properly.
I've thought about doing a white stout infused with green coffee beans, nutmeg and parsley to pair perfectly with a breakfast of weisswurst.
