German Pale Ale yeast help/recipe critique

[rtstrider]

Hello fellow brewers! I am trying to come up with a recipe that's something I have not seen in stores. A German Pale Ale. I am toying with the following but I need help choosing a yeast. I only have access to fermentis, many of the other dry yeast varieties, and some wyeast strains. White labs is not available from the LHBS. I do not have a way to build a starter so thinking dry yeast may be the way to go here. I was thinking of trying Safale K-97 since I've never tried a Kolsch style brew and it's a German yeast. Anywho here's the recipe I'm toying with

5 gallons

BIAB German Pale Ale
Estimated OG 1.051
Estimated FG 1.009
Efficiency 70%

8.5 LB Pale 2 row Malt
.5 LB Crystal 30L
.5 LB German Wheat Malt (for head retention)

Yeast Safale K-97

Mash for 60 min at 150F

60 min boil with the following hop additions

1oz Northern Brewer 60 min
1 oz Hallertau 5 min

Now my question is would you recommend the Kolsch yeast, lager yeast, us-05, etc?

 

[stieg000]

Here's a comparison from brulosophy.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/ye...s-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/

 

[BucksIPA]

Hello fellow brewers! I am trying to come up with a recipe that's something I have not seen in stores. A German Pale Ale. I am toying with the following but I need help choosing a yeast. I only have access to fermentis, many of the other dry yeast varieties, and some wyeast strains. White labs is not available from the LHBS. I do not have a way to build a starter so thinking dry yeast may be the way to go here. I was thinking of trying Safale K-97 since I've never tried a Kolsch style brew and it's a German yeast. Anywho here's the recipe I'm toying with

5 gallons

BIAB German Pale Ale
Estimated OG 1.051
Estimated FG 1.009
Efficiency 70%

8.5 LB Pale 2 row Malt
.5 LB Crystal 30L
.5 LB German Wheat Malt (for head retention)

Yeast Safale K-97

Mash for 60 min at 150F

60 min boil with the following hop additions

1oz Northern Brewer 60 min
1 oz Hallertau 5 min

Now my question is would you recommend the Kolsch yeast, lager yeast, us-05, etc?

Lager yeast would make it a lager
What about wlp 036 or some other german ale yeast , i know you had kolsch there

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Depends on what you want. US-05 is very neutral in my experience. If your goal is an American-Style Pale Ale with Germanic roots, I go with a neutral yeast, quadruple the noble hops, then let those hops shine at - say, a quarter to half an ounce every few minutes from 15 minutes through the whirlpool.

Side note: I recently had a helles-styled from Idletyme in Vermont that blew my mind, so that may be carrying over here. There's something about a big noble hop aroma that just screams "bier!"

 

[rtstrider]

Lager yeast would make it a lager
What about wlp 036 or some other german ale yeast , i know you had kolsch there

It would have to either be wyeast or dry yeast

 

[rtstrider]

How about changing the hop additions to

1oz Northern Brewer 60min
.3oz Hallertau 15min
.3oz Hallertau 10min
.4oz Hallertau 5min

 

[BucksIPA]

It would have to either be wyeast or dry yeast

Wyeast 1007 is the equivalent. One thing with a lot of german ale yeast is the suspension of the yeast, this one will not turn out clear.

Kolsch taste is kolsch taste and kinda distracts from a pale ale

To improve upon the german attitude of the beer you need something major german either the malt or the yeast.

You coukd keep it cloudy with 1007, add a crap ton of of mandarina , huell melon, and hallertau and make a juicy german

 

[rtstrider]

Hey Bucks I may just try making this a pale lager and use Saflager w34/70 in that case. It's flocc'd pretty well with this last batch and I like it so far. Of course I haven't moved the brew to bottles yet but it's VERY promising. I've used us-05 many o brews and it never clears, but, then again I never had the ability to cold crash until now.

 

[BucksIPA]

Hey Bucks I may just try making this a pale lager and use Saflager w34/70 in that case. It's flocc'd pretty well with this last batch and I like it so far. Of course I haven't moved the brew to bottles yet but it's VERY promising. I've used us-05 many o brews and it never clears, but, then again I never had the ability to cold crash until now.

w34/70 is a great yeast, it lets some nice malt character through. The german /czech lager yeast are work horses.

 

[Renegade Brewer]

What category is German Pale Ale? Sorry had to be that guy since I am a huge stickler for brewing to style.

Now that that’s out of my system, your grain bill is actually very close to what we see in the west coast IPA’s (also not a style), but it is a fad. The idea is to use a small amount of wheat or oats for mouthfeel with pilsner malt making up 80% of the grist for a dry clean finish. Of course we are seeing traditional American hops being used as FWH and a ton of late and knockout/whirlpool hops. We will usually use a US-05 because it’s a neutral clean and well attenuating yeast

 

[mirthfuldragon]

How about changing the hop additions to:
1oz Northern Brewer 60min
.3oz Hallertau 15min
.3oz Hallertau 10min
.4oz Hallertau 5min

With 1 oz at flameout, and another when it hits 170°, then let it set for a bit

You coukd keep it cloudy with 1007, add a crap ton of of mandarina , huell melon, and hallertau and make a juicy german

@BucksIPA is a brewer after my own heart. We have West Coast IPAs, East Coast/NEIPAs, Belgian IPAs, so why not Central European IPAs? Style guidelines are just that - guidelines. Brew what you want and what you like to drink. Brewing true to style is great if you like a style, or you want to learn to appreciate the art and history of brewing, but this hobby, like any hobby, should be fun and an act of self-expression.

I've used us-05 many o brews and it never clears, but, then again I never had the ability to cold crash until now.

I am surprised at your experience with US-05. Cold-crashing helps a lot, but with whirlfloc and gelatin, my latest faux-pils/cream ale is glass-clear with US-05. Without a cold crash, even a good flocculating yeast probably won't get very clear.

 

[Miraculix]

Ditch the Crystal, I never saw a classic German beer with Crystal.

PS I am German

 

[Lefou]

I agree.
Ditch the crystal, substitute some Weyermann melanoidin instead, or caramunich in a pinch. That will keep it "German".

Calling your brew an "ale" throws a wrench into the works - a good beer can be made with a lager yeast. I define my beers by yeast, hops, and malt - in that order.

 

[Miraculix]

I am personally over fed with lager, so I can fully understand the strive for a German ale. I guess there are two ways, either a classic steam beer, which basically only means to ferment a barley only grist with German wheat beer yeast, or to make some Kölsch like type of beer. I don't know about other German ales.

But I really enjoy English ale yeasts with German noble hops. Not truly German, but tastes German and can be very interesting. Easy grist, pilsener or lager malt, maybe.some Munich and or Vienna, low mash temperature, hallertauer mittelfrüh or saaz (yes I know, not German but used by many German breweries) and the result will be nice!

Oh and btw. All the cara malts are Crystal malts so I wouldn't use those in a German beer.

 

[BucksIPA]

I agree.
Ditch the crystal, substitute some Weyermann melanoidin instead, or caramunich in a pinch. That will keep it "German".

Calling your brew an "ale" throws a wrench into the works - a good beer can be made with a lager yeast. I define my beers by yeast, hops, and malt - in that order.

I agree with ditching the crystal , but at the same time not use the melanoidin. Its sweet like crystal and adds more red copper, but i find both to be really overly sweet. Ive been working on some german lagers for a while and using these different grains, but ive gone pretty much all pilsner and workibg the sweetness with the mash. I couldnt get the sweetness range low enough with using melanoidin.

But this is a pale ale, so maybe the sweetness is needed for the high hop in this recipie. Ive been creeping up my mash temp to do that though

 

[rtstrider]

Wyeast 1007 is the equivalent. One thing with a lot of german ale yeast is the suspension of the yeast, this one will not turn out clear.

Kolsch taste is kolsch taste and kinda distracts from a pale ale

To improve upon the german attitude of the beer you need something major german either the malt or the yeast.

You coukd keep it cloudy with 1007, add a crap ton of of mandarina , huell melon, and hallertau and make a juicy german

Hey Bucks I actually love that idea! I actually may brew something like that with US-05 in the next month or two because that sounds very tasty! However right now what I'm really trying to accomplish is something kind of plain on the malt bill with a little grassy german flavor. Maybe pale ale was the wrong terminology here. Maybe it'd be best to keep it simple. I have a blonde ale malt bill I love but haven't found the right hop combo yet and wanted to play with noble hops for giggles. Here's the blonde ale malt bill

9lb 2 row
.5lb Carapils

Yeast is us-05

I will say I love the Hallertau hop pellet aroma and would like to somehow incorporate that into my blonde ale. Is there such a thing as a german blonde ale?

Maybe do a simple single hop blonde with 1oz Hallertau at 60 min and maybe a half ounce at 5 min, dry hop with the other half oz (I know not the blonde ale style but I LOVE the Hallertau smell).

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I will say I love the Hallertau hop pellet aroma and would like to somehow incorporate that into my blonde ale. Is there such a thing as a german blonde ale?

Not really. Blonde-colored (light SRM) German ales are typically lagers. A German "ale" is usually a kolsch or a hefenweizen.

 

[BucksIPA]

Hey Bucks I actually love that idea! I actually may brew something like that with US-05 in the next month or two because that sounds very tasty! However right now what I'm really trying to accomplish is something kind of plain on the malt bill with a little grassy german flavor. Maybe pale ale was the wrong terminology here. Maybe it'd be best to keep it simple. I have a blonde ale malt bill I love but haven't found the right hop combo yet and wanted to play with noble hops for giggles. Here's the blonde ale malt bill

9lb 2 row
.5lb Carapils

Yeast is us-05

I will say I love the Hallertau hop pellet aroma and would like to somehow incorporate that into my blonde ale. Is there such a thing as a german blonde ale?

Maybe do a simple single hop blonde with 1oz Hallertau at 60 min and maybe a half ounce at 5 min, dry hop with the other half oz (I know not the blonde ale style but I LOVE the Hallertau smell).

I just did a scotts-czech ale. Simple grain bill, used 1oz saaz at 60 min, but did 1oz kazbek at flamout. I get a tiny bit of citrus from the kazbek , but not much. Im not sure how much influence a half hall at flameout and a half at dry hop will do. Go for it, see what the results are, and improve it.

I like the idea of taking something from one region and utilizing others regional ingredients. I used the Edinburgh ale yeast wlp 028 to make it scott-czech ( which is my house ale yeast , that and 1728), so this kind of thought matches mine.

 

[JstnMoyer]

Hey Bucks I actually love that idea! I actually may brew something like that with US-05 in the next month or two because that sounds very tasty! However right now what I'm really trying to accomplish is something kind of plain on the malt bill with a little grassy german flavor. Maybe pale ale was the wrong terminology here. Maybe it'd be best to keep it simple. I have a blonde ale malt bill I love but haven't found the right hop combo yet and wanted to play with noble hops for giggles. Here's the blonde ale malt bill

9lb 2 row
.5lb Carapils

Yeast is us-05

I will say I love the Hallertau hop pellet aroma and would like to somehow incorporate that into my blonde ale. Is there such a thing as a german blonde ale?

Maybe do a simple single hop blonde with 1oz Hallertau at 60 min and maybe a half ounce at 5 min, dry hop with the other half oz (I know not the blonde ale style but I LOVE the Hallertau smell).

I'm very curious about this recipe. Did you make it and how'd it turn out? I came to this thread because I want to make a blonde ale with simple grain bill to resemble a continental pilsner with noble hops and possibly a lager yeast fermented at ale temp. I had a local blonde ale brewed with 2-row, dextrose, and Saaz. Yeast undefined. The brew was Jackie O's Ricky and I loved it. It was heavy on Saaz flavor and aroma and wow it was good. I may not brew it THAT heavy on hops but a crisp, simple blonde ale that resembles a Czech/German pilsner that features a noble hop is my main goal. Also, if necessary to achieve this, a side goal of seeing if I can get good results with lager yeast fermented at ale temps (my basement is 64-68°f). Tips?

 

[Miraculix]

I'm very curious about this recipe. Did you make it and how'd it turn out? I came to this thread because I want to make a blonde ale with simple grain bill to resemble a continental pilsner with noble hops and possibly a lager yeast fermented at ale temp. I had a local blonde ale brewed with 2-row, dextrose, and Saaz. Yeast undefined. The brew was Jackie O's Ricky and I loved it. It was heavy on Saaz flavor and aroma and wow it was good. I may not brew it THAT heavy on hops but a crisp, simple blonde ale that resembles a Czech/German pilsner that features a noble hop is my main goal. Also, if necessary to achieve this, a side goal of seeing if I can get good results with lager yeast fermented at ale temps (my basement is 64-68°f). Tips?

You can simply brew a smash with a slightly more expressive pale malt like marris otter or bohemian pilsener malt, or use a us pale malt with about 20 to 30% Vienna or about 10 to 20 % munich as addtional part of the grain bill. Use saaz as hops only, maybe some higher alpha hops, without any character except noble character, like Magnum or similar to help with the bittering addition.

You can ferment this with US05 to get a decent noble character ale, was my house ale for a long time. You can also use Nottingham which is a bit cleaner than US05 and flocs better.

If you want it really clean, use mangrove jack california lager, this lager yeast is designed to be fermented at room temperature and it still is as clean as any lager yeast at typical lager temperature. It also flocks better than other lager strains.

Both are decent options, maybe do a split batch to try both yeasts.

 

[JstnMoyer]

You can simply brew a smash with a slightly more expressive pale malt like marris otter or bohemian pilsener malt, or use a us pale malt with about 20 to 30% Vienna or about 10 to 20 % munich as addtional part of the grain bill. Use saaz as hops only, maybe some higher alpha hops, without any character except noble character, like Magnum or similar to help with the bittering addition.

You can ferment this with US05 to get a decent noble character ale, was my house ale for a long time. You can also use Nottingham which is a bit cleaner than US05 and flocs better.

If you want it really clean, use mangrove jack california lager, this lager yeast is designed to be fermented at room temperature and it still is as clean as any lager yeast at typical lager temperature. It also flocks better than other lager strains.

Both are decent options, maybe do a split batch to try both yeasts.

Good stuff, thanks a lot! I will look into each yeast you mentioned. I've only used us05 so far (very new to home brewing) so I might explore the other two more. I want this beer to be yellow and crisp so I wonder how much the vienna or munich malt might impact that. Thanks again, I'll give it a go in a few weeks after my pale ale is done.

 

[deadwolfbones]

There's a local brewery here in the PNW (Portland, specifically) that makes a "German IPA." Here's the description:

Hopfenbombe
6.1% ABV – 60 IBU

Germans aren’t well known for big hoppy beers, but Portland is, so we put our brewers to work creating the ultimate German IPA. Hop-forward, spicy, herbal and citrus aromas from the German hops meld with the clean backbone of German malts and yeast. What does this explosive mix create? A hop bomb, or as the Germans say it: Hopfenbombe!​