Frustrated Mightily

[razyrsharpe]

i have just found my second infected batch in a row. i am beyond pissed about it. i simply cannot put my finger on what i have done differently for this to happen. i had 8 batches this year and none of them had a problem, then with #'s 9 & 10 boom. i have wasted 20lbs of munich light grain with nothing to show for it. arghhhhh.

i will probably need to replace all my tubing at least.

 

[kh54s10]

Tubing is pretty cheap so I would replace that. The bleach bomb and thorough cleaning of everything else. Take all the valves apart that you can and make sure the insides are clean. If you are using plastic fermenters I would use a different one to eliminate that variable.

 

[razyrsharpe]

Tubing is pretty cheap so I would replace that. The bleach bomb and thorough cleaning of everything else. Take all the valves apart that you can and make sure the insides are clean. If you are using plastic fermenters I would use a different one to eliminate that variable.

i only have valves on my bottling buckets, and the infections occur in the fermenters before the bottling has commenced. unfortunately i cannot afford a different fermenter at this time. two kids in high school can do that to ya. i have to make due with the two plastic pails i have. keep on trying...

 

[Firewalker11]

tubing is pretty cheap so i would replace that. The bleach bomb and thorough cleaning of everything else. Take all the valves apart that you can and make sure the insides are clean. If you are using plastic fermenters i would use a different one to eliminate that variable.

+1!

Actually, the valves ARE in the fermentation, they have to be taken apart and sanitized too, I find all sorts of stuff when you don't expect it...

 

[razyrsharpe]

+1!

Actually, the valves ARE in the fermentation, they have to be taken apart and sanitized too, I find all sorts of stuff when you don't expect it...

i am staring at my fermenters now and cannot for the life of me identify a valve on it.

 

[Firewalker11]

i am staring at my fermenters now and cannot for the life of me identify a valve on it.

Sorry, I misread that, I thought you had a valve on your fermentation bucket too. You will have to use a pretty strong bleach solution in your fermenter to get rid of everything, there are lots of buggies that are tolerant of high temps and acid conditions. I dont know that any of them are in your beer but getting a new bucket and lid are the easiest way to eliminate that variable.

 

[ncbrewer]

There seem to be two schools of thought on plastic buckets - they can be disinfected, or they can't. When I got an infection, I read everything I could find about it - no definite answer. I tried soaking the fermenter in 1 Tbsp of bleach per gallon for 15 minutes, but the next batch was infected. Replaced the bucket - problem solved. Maybe higher concentration or longer soak time would do it. I followed some guidelines I found for buckets, to prevent getting the chlorine from penetrating the porous plastic. I think I read somewhere that letting it stand outside in the sunlight helps get rid of the chlorine - not sure.

It was a really unpleasant experience for me, and I'm sure it is for you, too. Good luck.

 

[razyrsharpe]

i will put a vicious cleaning on everything. i do however think that my tubing is the main culprit. i will take the appropriate steps to correct that also.

 

[flars]

The infection may not be caused by the fermentor, but what you put into it or do with it during the fermentation. Sources could be tubing, racking cane or auto siphon, SG sampling tool, dirty O-ring in the bucket lid, or lack of sanitation around the lid before opening.

 

[aprichman]

I've gotten into the habit of storing all of my carboys with a bleach water solution in them after I clean them out. On brew day I'll dump the bleach water, rinse everything out with water about 4-5 times, and then sanitize with starsan. I had an infection pop up around march of this year that I noticed in the bottle about 4 weeks in, tubing was the probable culprit but I couldn't be 100% sure so I ran *everything* through bleach water and haven't had an infection pop back up.

 

[razyrsharpe]

I've gotten into the habit of storing all of my carboys with a bleach water solution in them after I clean them out. On brew day I'll dump the bleach water, rinse everything out with water about 4-5 times, and then sanitize with starsan. I had an infection pop up around march of this year that I noticed in the bottle about 4 weeks in, tubing was the probable culprit but I couldn't be 100% sure so I ran *everything* through bleach water and haven't had an infection pop back up.

Great idea, but i brew about once per month. don't know how long bleach water should be kept. maybe fill it about 5 days or so out from my brew date?

 

[aprichman]

Great idea, but i brew about once per month. don't know how long bleach water should be kept. maybe fill it about 5 days or so out from my brew date?

I've stored my carboys with bleach water for over a month. I think as long as it's sealed, the bleach solution should stay active. I'm using glass so YMMV, but I think having mild bleach water in your buckets 5 days out would work great.

 

[donbrew]

You only run into problems with bleach when the H2O evaporates; it leaves a rather nasty deposit behind of (insert the chemical name for bleach crystals here). I found this out when I stored a couple of air lock in bleach water, then forgot about it for a couple of months.

 

[brewcat]

Feel around and see if you have any scratches. Another option is to look at your sanitizing practices. What are you using to sanitize? What tubing are you using for fermentation? Blow off tube? Do you have it in sanitizer?

Personally, I'd just replace the buckets before brewing again.

 

[Peruvian802]

5 gallon buckets are about $3. I would start there.

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

Can you get your hands on a bucket heater? I had a batch of apple cider go to vinegar in one of my buckets. I filled it with water and heated to close to 200f for 3 hours. Like scorched earth...

 

[IslandLizard]

Sorry to hear you got a bug pestering you. You need to review where the vector has crept into your system, so it won't happen again. And eradicate the one that's there now.

It could well be the bucket or the tubing. But basically anything that has touched your beer after chilling is suspect. It all comes down to process and sanitation. What sanitizer do you use and how do you use it?

Is the infection in your primary (bucket) fermentor? What tubing did you use to transfer from kettle to that bucket? That would be the only tubing involved. Is it silicone? I cannot see why that tubing would be infected, unless it wasn't cleaned and sanitized properly before and after use.

Or have you racked it after that, to a secondary bucket? That's usually a bad idea.

The good thing about buckets are they are easy to clean and maintain as long as the lid and rim area are always carefully and thoroughly cleaned and sanitized when you remove or before you shut it. Pay attention to the grommet and that area too. Any deep scratches in the bucket or lid can harbor bugs.

Bleach bombing, followed by putting out in the blazing sun (UV exposure) after a good rinse helps to eradicate "bugs."

 

[aprichman]

Bleach bombing, followed by putting out in the blazing sun (UV exposure) after a good rinse helps to eradicate "bugs."

That reminds me of a lecture where one of my food science professors discussed how the sidewalk usually had much less bacteria than people's kitchen floors due to the sidewalk's exposure to the elements and UV light.

 

[Beerbeque]

Your bug likely lies hidden from you in a spigot,valve or bottling wand tip.

 

[Hoppity]

How are you chilling the wort? Counterflow chillers, if not properly sanitized, may harbour bugs.

 

[treacheroustexan]

Your bug likely lies hidden from you in a spigot,valve or bottling wand tip.

+1 to this. My last few batches I bottled have ended up infected, but when I keg no issues. replacing my bottling wand and will hope for the best. Might be a good place to start.

 

[IslandLizard]

Your bug likely lies hidden from you in a spigot,valve or bottling wand tip.

+1 to this. My last few batches I bottled have ended up infected, but when I keg no issues. replacing my bottling wand and will hope for the best. Might be a good place to start.

Although it often points to those, it's clearly not the case here. You guys must have missed this little detail:

i only have valves on my bottling buckets, and the infections occur in the fermenters before the bottling has commenced.[...]

Now the trick is to isolate where the infection comes from, between kettle and x weeks in the fermentor.

@razyrsharpe, what cleaners and sanitizer do you use and how do you use them on your equipment?

 

[BamaPhil]

If it makes you feel any better, I dealt with the same thing this time last year. Replaced tubing, bleach bombed, though I got rid of it.

Now, a year later, the beast is back. It, like yours, shows up in the bottles. Ive replaced plastic, bleached some more, and just generally gone more anal than is really practical about cleaning and sanitation. I think some of us are just more vulnerable than others.

Keep up the fight, we'll make it!

 

[IslandLizard]

If it makes you feel any better, I dealt with the same thing this time last year. Replaced tubing, bleach bombed, though I got rid of it.

Now, a year later, the beast is back. It, like yours, shows up in the bottles. Ive replaced plastic, bleached some more, and just generally gone more anal than is really practical about cleaning and sanitation. I think some of us are just more vulnerable than others.

Keep up the fight, we'll make it!

Damn! Sorry to hear you got hit again, There must be something in your cleaning/sanitation process you're missing. Review all steps, thoroughly!

Spigots on bottling buckets are bug traps. The 2 white barrels that turn within each other do come apart after a short soak in boiling hot water. Just push them apart. I found black moldy stuff between them. The rubber washer, nut and all threads are another potential infection hazard.

I keep all my racking equipment under Starsan. And NO, don't think that spraying a bucket's sides with Starsan sanitizes it enough. I pour at least 2-3 gallons into the fermentation bucket and mop the sides and the rim area with a small washcloth, drenched with the stuff for a few minutes.

 

[MannyEdwards]

I'm new at this, so I don't know much, but what about boiling the tubing? Also, I know clear and green glass can be sanitized in a few hours of sunlight; I wonder about the plastic bucket, though. I think it might be too opaque.

 

[ncbrewer]

And NO, don't think that spraying a bucket's sides with Starsan sanitizes it enough. I pour at least 2-3 gallons into the fermentation bucket and mop the sides and the rim area with a small washcloth, drenched with the stuff for a few minutes.

This worries me. I've always thought of Star San as a contact sanitizer, so spraying on the surface and letting it sit for a minute or so seems like good practice. Can you elaborate? Do you feel that some agitation is needed?

 

[IslandLizard]

This worries me. I've always thought of Star San as a contact sanitizer, so spraying on the surface and letting it sit for a minute or so seems like good practice. Can you elaborate? Do you feel that some agitation is needed?

First off, You cannot sanitize something unless it's clean. So we need to make sure that criterion has been met.

Sure, Starsan is a contact sanitizer, but it needs to contact for 30 seconds to 1 minute. If it beads up and drips down the sides there may not be enough contact time, and certain areas could remain unsanitized while (small) scratches may not get wet enough all the way through.

I immerse most of my smaller equipment in Starsan, including (mason) jars I collect and store ranched and harvested yeast in, starter flasks, stoppers, airlocks, hoses, etc. Actually, racking hoses remain submerged in a bucket of Starsan, they never get dry. They turn milky-opaque, no big deal.

Glass carboys get a gallon and I shake them up a few times to wet thoroughly, then drain. Buckets get 1-2 gallons and get "mopped." Rims, lids, grommets, spigots, and other bug traps get special attention. Agitation helps, sure.

In all those years I've had one starter from reclaimed yeast get unintentionally infected with Lacto. Used it to my advantage, and increased it to become a small batch.

 

[Clonefan94]

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but you say that you don't have the money for a new bucket, but that you've wasted 20lbs. of Munich.

I would go ahead and get a new bucket and maybe just skip one brew, more than likely your culprit lies in the bucket, unless you are using other plastic stuff post boil that may also be harboring the critters.

Anyway, it just seems a lot cheaper to me to replace the bucket rather than keep wasting ingredients on infected beers hoping your last try has cleaned the bucket well enough.

 

[BamaPhil]

Damn! Sorry to hear you got hit again, There must be something in your cleaning/sanitation process you're missing. Review all steps, thoroughly!



Spigots on bottling buckets are bug traps. The 2 white barrels that turn within each other do come apart after a short soak in boiling hot water. Just push them apart. I found black moldy stuff between them. The rubber washer, nut and all threads are another potential infection hazard.



I keep all my racking equipment under Starsan. And NO, don't think that spraying a bucket's sides with Starsan sanitizes it enough. I pour at least 2-3 gallons into the fermentation bucket and mop the sides and the rim area with a small washcloth, drenched with the stuff for a few minutes.

Yeah I know, but there's literally nothing left for me to clean. Everything that can come apart comes apart and gets soaked. I thought maybe I wasn't cleaning thoroughly enough so I got more serious with long oxyclean soaks. My bottling bucket is immaculate.

One thing I'm going to test next is my chilling process. It does take forever and I pick up the lid a lot to stir. Gonna try to tweak it and maybe by an improved chiller.

Interesting note, the first infected batches of each round of this were brewed on the same date a year apart. Makes me wonder if it's something environmental and seasonal Im getting outside. I do live near a swamp...

Who knows? The good news is it no longer depresses me, its almost funny now.

 

[Hillsbrew79]

Definitely sounds like an something in your primary and or secondary fermenter. What do you use to sanitize them? I had the same issues using Star-San, which led me to switch to idophor. Like everyone else suggested, I'd replace all tubing and soak the hell out of your buckets with a strong bleach or idophor solution and let them sit a full 24 hours or longer before doing a batch. That should kill off any living critter in those buckets and should get you back on track.

 

[turkeygecko]

How do you chill? That is often overlooked as a source of infection. If you use an immersion chiller, boil it, and make sure none of the water running through drips into your kettle.

If you use a counterflow or plate, run boiling water through it.

 

[ncbrewer]

Bacteria and wild yeast on grain can be a problem. I think I've read that during milling, and even handling after, dust gets in the air and can contaminate anything around. This can happen even if you've cleaned and sanitized the equipment.

 

[crazz82]

Just out curiosity, how do know it's an infection in the fermenter? Are there signs of infection before bottling?

 

[brewcat]

Yeah I know, but there's literally nothing left for me to clean. Everything that can come apart comes apart and gets soaked. I thought maybe I wasn't cleaning thoroughly enough so I got more serious with long oxyclean soaks. My bottling bucket is immaculate.

One thing I'm going to test next is my chilling process. It does take forever and I pick up the lid a lot to stir. Gonna try to tweak it and maybe by an improved chiller.

Interesting note, the first infected batches of each round of this were brewed on the same date a year apart. Makes me wonder if it's something environmental and seasonal Im getting outside. I do live near a swamp...

Who knows? The good news is it no longer depresses me, its almost funny now.

You'll cool faster with the lid off.

 

[razyrsharpe]

thanks for all the help on this guys. there are a lot of great suggestions and i will try many of them.

to answer a couple of your questions, i do not use an immersion chiller, i use a swamp cooler with large pieces of ice surrounding the kettle. as far as buying a new bucket, that would solve the problem for a batch or two, but ultimately i would have to deal with it all over again. i want to solve it with the setup i have now. the only upgrade i can see to my fermenters are to upgrade to stainless steel, which i don't have the ability to afford. i have had no problem with 8 prior batches of all grain recipes until this occurred. so it is something i can fix. i will fix it.

i have replaced all tubing. i have bleach bombed everything. i like the advice to soak everything for days/weeks in sanitizer solution prior to use. i have now done this. the only thing left to do is to break down the valves on the 2 bottling buckets i have so i can thoroughly clean the pieces.

my LHBS owner, JP, gave me a sample of PBW to use and i plan to use that also. i never have before and am willing to give it a try. if i have any more questions i will not hesitate to post them. there is too much knowledge and experience on this board not to. those critters will not get the best of me.

 

[tennesseean_87]

thanks for all the help on this guys. there are a lot of great suggestions and i will try many of them.

to answer a couple of your questions, i do not use an immersion chiller, i use a swamp cooler with large pieces of ice surrounding the kettle. as far as buying a new bucket, that would solve the problem for a batch or two, but ultimately i would have to deal with it all over again. i want to solve it with the setup i have now. the only upgrade i can see to my fermenters are to upgrade to stainless steel, which i don't have the ability to afford. i have had no problem with 8 prior batches of all grain recipes until this occurred. so it is something i can fix. i will fix it.

i have replaced all tubing. i have bleach bombed everything. i like the advice to soak everything for days/weeks in sanitizer solution prior to use. i have now done this. the only thing left to do is to break down the valves on the 2 bottling buckets i have so i can thoroughly clean the pieces.

my LHBS owner, JP, gave me a sample of PBW to use and i plan to use that also. i never have before and am willing to give it a try. if i have any more questions i will not hesitate to post them. there is too much knowledge and experience on this board not to. those critters will not get the best of me.

Good luck. I've been where you are and hope you're rid of the bug. The reason people say to replace buckets is that the bug may be living in a scratch in the bucket itself. Replacing the bucket would be a permanent solution unless you scratch and then infect the new buckets.

I had a loose lid on a fermenter that allowed a fruit fly in. I had a batch of porter vinegar with maggots crawling all over the trub ring. I bleached the snot out of the bucket, but the following two batches in that bucket got a little sour to them.

FWIW, I've used string tied around scraps of rag to clean out the inside of tubing that got a bit gunky and I was scared wouldn't sanitize properly. You can easily suck the string through the tube, then pull the rag through. I've got some really old tubing that works fine.

 

[BamaPhil]

You'll cool faster with the lid off.

True, but then it's exposed to the air longer. Damned if I do, damned if I dont.

 

[rawlus]

Probably have done 100+ batches over the years, never had an infection and I'm not hyper vigilant about cleaning... Although..
I don't use bleach ever, I clean with PBW and sanitize with star San
I don't use plastic buckets ever, I started with glass carboys, went to better bottles and now use a stainless conical
I change tubing every 6 months or so give or take, it's cheap.
I change autosiphon every year or two, depending on how it's showing its age.
I take cleaning and sanitizing pretty seriously, but not obsessively so. I don't store equipment in solutions or anything, I clean it before I store it and I clean and sanitize before I use it and that's worked for many many years...
I suspect bottling can be a suspect in your infection issues, in addition to very used plastic buckets.... Bottles can be hard to keep clean Over time unless you take care to wash well after each emptying.
I think yeast pitch rate can also play a role, meaning under pitching can open the opportunity for other bugs to take control....

Hoe you figure it out. Tubing, buckets, bottles, PBW, carboys are all inexpensive to replace or use... If budget doesn't permit, I'd just hold off brewing until it does....

 

[brewcat]

True, but then it's exposed to the air longer. Damned if I do, damned if I dont.

Doesn't matter. You'll want to oxygenate your wort for the yeast anyway. The yeast will eat up any O2.

 

[BamaPhil]

My issue has disappeared as mysteriously as it showed up. My latest batch shows no sign of it.

I didn't buy any new equipment between the last infected beer and this recent clean one. It seems the slow process of buying new plastic, doubling down on cleaning, and bleaching everything reduced it to nothing.

One thing I've been more dedicated to is giving all my equipment an overnight soak in oxyclean, whether I used it or not. e.g. my beer thief and bottling wand get soaked on brew day even though they're bottling day items.

I'm also going to keep bleaching everything every 3 months or so just to be on the safe side.