My Homebrew Supplier Didn't Like My Recipe

[BrewZer]

This happened Friday at my LHBS, and I'm interested in observations and opinions about it.

Went in with my Brewtarget recipe and asked the proprietor to fetch for me 5 lbs of Briess's 20L Munich malt and a pound of white wheat (with which I will mash 6 lbs of 2-row brewer's malt) for a 5 gallon batch of BIAB Amber Ale. Fermenting with US-05 and using Northern Brewer for bitter and Saaz for flavor and aroma.

Proprietor's eyebrows shot up and they questioned my choice of the 20L Munich, advising me that Briess calls it "Aromatic" and that I should expect very little fermentability out of it, being almost 50% of my grains, and to be prepared for a very sweet, low-alcohol beer.

Not having a smart device with which I could check his input by changing my recipe numbers, I accepted this reasoning and changed my grain mix to 2 lbs of 20L Munich and 3 lbs of 10L Munich.

But in afterthought -- and after checking Briess' recipes pages -- I wonder if I should have stayed the course with the 5 lbs of 20L Munich and let the mash do what the mash usually does... Even Brewtarget laughed at me as I re-ran the numbers, which back the color from Amber Ale into the Pale Ale category. ABV and IBUs remained the same.

FWIW, the Briess recipes show a Double Marzen that uses 3 lbs of 20L "Aromatic" along with 2 lbs of the 10L "Bonlander" Munich malts -- very close to what I had, and even closer to what I have now.

Was I wrong to let the proprietor talk me out of my beer recipe, or should I be more appreciative of their willingness to speak up and possibly correct a misplaced expectation on my part? What would you have done?

 

[DBhomebrew]

An LHBS owner may be a great businessperson and/or a great brewer. Hopefully a great businessperson so they'll be there awhile. Hopefully a great, widely experienced brewer so you can trust their opinions. In the end, they're just opinions. As trustworthy as any one opinion you find on this here website.

 

[AlexKay]

Just my opinion, of course.

Briess describes their 20L Munich as usable up to 50% of the grist for Bock/Doppelbock with exaggerated maltiness. I don't usually use Briess malts, but this matches what I would expect: that much highly-kilned Munich will make a beer that's really heavy on the melanoidans. Certainly overpowering for an amber ale for my tastes.

As far as "fermentability," I don't think they were accurate. That mash has more than enough enzymes to convert (with ~50% 2-row and a dollop of white wheat, you could make the rest unmalted adjunct and be fine.) The Maillard products won't ferment and will absolutely leave you with some sweetness, but the numbers (and the ABV) will look fine.

I don't know what was involved in "talking you out of" your beer recipe, and it seems to have left you a little annoyed, so they probably should have approached the interaction differently. But in general, I appreciate if someone speaks up to tell me that they think my recipe is off. In this case, I think it was good advice, and the lighter Munich is more likely to give you something you're happy with.

 

[BrewZer]

I don't know what was involved in "talking you out of" your beer recipe, and it seems to have left you a little annoyed, so they probably should have approached the interaction differently. But in general, I appreciate if someone speaks up to tell me that they think my recipe is off. In this case, I think it was good advice, and the lighter Munich is more likely to give you something you're happy with.

The advice wasn't pushy, just advisory in nature. I'm second guessing myself here, not them. Appreciate your input.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

In the past, when I bought ingredients locally, I would often have a shopping list that contained "missing" ingredients from one or two recipes.

On those days when staff was curious in what I was brewing and I was interested in some discussion, I had a couple of recipes in mind that we could chat about. If I wasn't interested in some discussion, I would simply mention I was "stocking up".

 

[hotbeer]

If it was/is something I want to do, then typically I do it no matter what others say. I at least want to find out for myself what is wrong with it if anything and whether they actually knew what the bad result would be or was just their preconceived ideas also.

Even making a bad beer is a chance to learn.

 

[MaxStout]

It's your recipe, and it'll be you and your friends drinking it, not the LHBS owner.

I've learned to take brew store people's advice with a grain of salt. Maybe they are being opinionated, maybe they're just trying to be helpful. But unless they're helping you avoid a big blunder (which you are not doing), it's just a random opinion.

Stay the course and brew the beer you want to brew.

 

[seatazzz]

What @hotbeer said. Brewers with the exact same system (like an AIO) might get different results from the same recipe. There are so many ways out there to brew, the same recipe can come up with different results for the most of them. Munich 20l is my go-to for about 10-20% of the grist in beers I want some more color/maltiness in, without going the whole-hog sweet caramelly route of crystal malt, and I try to keep about 10lbs in my inventory. I'm lucky in my LHBS guy, he's an old friend who has not yet more than raised an eyebrow to the sometimes weird things I want to brew, just asks for results when it's done. If we brewed the same beer every time, with the same results, life would be pretty boring, I think.

 

[MicroMickey]

The guy at the LHBS is spot on. The Munich 20 will present a super-malty flavor and will easily overpower your recipe. We're not talking about a bunch of money here so proceed with your recipe - as written. Take good notes and keep good records!

I once tried to make a Cal Common and added only 4 oz. of Briess Munich 20 for a 5 gallon batch. It basically turned it into a Altbier. It was good but nowhere what I had envisioned.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Well, I know one brew supply proprietor that's not getting a free bottle of beer.

 

[Dr P]

Can you brew a small batch of the original recipe to see what you get? I value the advice of Homebrew staff, and ask them to talk me out of anything that is headed away from target. And, they routinely do, by offering what I will get vs what I am after and then we adjust.

 

[BrewZer]

The guy at the LHBS is spot on. The Munich 20 will present a super-malty flavor and will easily overpower your recipe. We're not talking about a bunch of money here so proceed with your recipe - as written. Take good notes and keep good records!

I once tried to make a Cal Common and added only 4 oz. of Briess Munich 20 for a 5 gallon batch. It basically turned it into a Altbier. It was good but nowhere what I had envisioned.

Like I said, I modified the recipe to 2 lbs 20L and 3 lbs 10L. And I already use Brewtarget to keep batch notes.

Well, I know one brew supply proprietor that's not getting a free bottle of beer.

I'm actually considering naming it after the store, so I'd owe 'em at least one bottle regardless.

Can you brew a small batch of the original recipe to see what you get? I value the advice of Homebrew staff, and ask them to talk me out of anything that is headed away from target. And, they routinely do, by offering what I will get vs what I am after and then we adjust.

I didn't get enough 20L to do that, but it sounds like a good exbeeriment to try next time.

 

[Bobby_M]

I own a homebrew shop but also consider myself a very active homebrewer so maybe I have a look into both perspectives. I politely question motives all the time and I encourage my employees to do the same (they are all very good brewers as well). If something looks amiss, ask if it was deliberate. The first thing is that it clears up any miscommunications. Sometimes people look at the recipe on their phone and transcribe amounts as we're writing them down. Sometimes we hear it wrong or write it down wrong. No one likes failed brew days because of communication errors.

Specifically in this case they were probably justified in pausing. It's not quite as intense as say Simpson's Aromatic, but...

"Amber Ale" is relatively generic, but I guess he assumed you weren't making an ale version of a Doppelbock. An American Amber gets it's copper to amber color from a 5-10% dose of dark caramel such as 80L or 120L or a couple ounces of chocolate/roasted malt. Color in many cases can and should be accomplished without the intense maltiness that medium color malts can often contribute.

Now, keep in mind it's all in how it's approached. We often say, "did I hear you correctly?" and when they confirm yes, I'll often say "that looks like a lot of dark Munich. Do you want to talk about the recipe a bit or do you just want me to proceed?"

We're always trying to thread the needle on customer satisfaction but it's not always clear how to land there. We can just be mill-monkeys or advisors and it's likely the customers' impression of our brewing prowess that determines which to be.

On the other hand, if you want to develop your recipe building skills, feel free to stick to your guns. Tell him "I appreciate the input but I'm trying to learn recipe design and making a few mistakes along the way will help me understand better". Anyone would understand that angle.

The other option was to have them bag it all separately and you could contemplate the input and decide what to use later. That means maybe buying a couple extra pounds of malt you won't use. You COULD also post recipes here and ask for input before shopping.