Foam and time, what is the connection?

[Miraculix]

Hello fellow brewers,

one question is bothering me since ages. I know that other guys are experiencing the same, so hear me out.

I bottle with priming sugar. The first 2 weeks, there is zero head retention, no matter how well the beer is already carbed. Sometimes, with higher ambient temperature, the bottle carbonation is already done within 6-10 days in the bottle but head retention = 0.

3 weeks later, all the head is there. Same beer, same carbonation level, same glass, everything same. I can reproduce this with all my beers. first 2-3 weeks, very bad to 0 head retention, afterwards huge improvement. The longer the better, but usually no further improvement after 1 month.

WHY!?

I cannot really find a reason why this might be happing.

Still some yeast in suspension somehow disturbs the foam? I don't know..... Something else? But what?

Cheers!

(drinking a fully carbed but 0 head 2 weeks old beer)

M

 

[McMullan]

Small vs big CO2 bubbles/tight vs loose carbonation? It's been a long time since I bottle conditioned a beer, but that was my experience.

 

[Bobby_M]

Hello fellow brewers,

one question is bothering me since ages. I know that other guys are experiencing the same, so hear me out.

I bottle with priming sugar. The first 2 weeks, there is zero head retention, no matter how well the beer is already carbed. Sometimes, with higher ambient temperature, the bottle carbonation is already done within 6-10 days in the bottle but head retention = 0.

3 weeks later, all the head is there. Same beer, same carbonation level, same glass, everything same. I can reproduce this with all my beers. first 2-3 weeks, very bad to 0 head retention, afterwards huge improvement. The longer the better, but usually no further improvement after 1 month.

WHY!?

I cannot really find a reason why this might be happing.

Still some yeast in suspension somehow disturbs the foam? I don't know..... Something else? But what?

Cheers!

(drinking a fully carbed but 0 head 2 weeks old beer)

M

When the bottle carbonation first happens, the active ferment puts the yeast and other particulates into suspension. Opening the bottle allows a lot more Co2 to come out of solution due to those nucleation points. After a while longer, those nucleation points are now compacted at the bottom of the bottle. Less co2 comes out of solution up front and therefore constantly feeds the head from underneath. That's my theory anyway.

 

[Miraculix]

When the bottle carbonation first happens, the active ferment puts the yeast and other particulates into suspension. Opening the bottle allows a lot more Co2 to come out of solution due to those nucleation points. After a while longer, those nucleation points are now compacted at the bottom of the bottle. Less co2 comes out of solution up front and therefore constantly feeds the head from underneath. That's my theory anyway.

Does not work like that I'm afraid. I got a glass with an edging on the bottom, forcing the CO2 to come out of solution at elevated speed. Same poor head retention in that glass as in others. Beers that have aged a bit have great to superhuman head retention in that glass, in comparison.

It is not only that the head won't start, it is more like a cider. You have this initial foam when pouring but it is gone in no time. Completely different story after a few weeks.....

 

[Miraculix]

Small vs big CO2 bubbles/tight vs loose carbonation? It's been a long time since I bottle conditioned a beer, but that was my experience.

How should this be happening on a physical level? Co2 in solution is Co2 in solution. There is no such thing as a tight or loose carbonation imo.

 

[Gus_13]

I would like to know this too as my Saison's head retention just gets better and better. Loads of low alpha hops improved the head on my beers greatly as well as carbing them to 3.0+ vol in the bottle. But after a few weeks (carbonation is done in a few days for me) it's fluff city.

 

[McMullan]

How should this be happening on a physical level? Co2 in solution is Co2 in solution. There is no such thing as a tight or loose carbonation imo.

Time. All good things come to those who wait

 

[Miraculix]

Time. All good things come to those who wait

I know, but whhyyyy!?

 

[Gus_13]

I've wondered this as well with spunding lagers. People will say that the carbonation is smoother (which to me it does perceive that way) but like you said CO2 in solution is CO2 in solution. I primarily spund for ease and because I can. I FEEL like it makes the carbonation smoother but I don't actually understand how or why it does.

 

[McMullan]

CO2 in solution is not CO2 in solution. It takes time to get tightly carbonated. Spunding/naturally conditioning in a sealed FV is different. With much more active yeast in suspension, tight carbonation is achieved much sooner. Those tiny 'Champaign' bubbles appear sooner. I suspect the fundamental physics aren't too far from Bobby's model.

 

[Miraculix]

I've wondered this as well with spunding lagers. People will say that the carbonation is smoother (which to me it does perceive that way) but like you said CO2 in solution is CO2 in solution. I primarily spund for ease and because I can. I FEEL like it makes the carbonation smoother but I don't actually understand how or why it does.

I think there is something going on on the chemical level. It is not only that the foam won't stay at the beginning, I also percieve the whole beer as less creamy, less mouthfeel if one would want to call it that way. I think there might be somehting going on with these foam positive molecules that have the hydrophobe and hydrophil ends. Maybe they are blocked at the beginning by whatever? Or they are not created yet?

 

[bracconiere]

acidic conditions breaking amides bonds in protein molecules? low temp would take more time, but it will happen....

 

[McMullan]

Hopefully, it's something at the chemical level, because without that you'd have an empty glass. In fact, you wouldn't even have a glass

 

[bracconiere]

In fact, you wouldn't even have a glass

that's elemental dear mcmullan!

 

[RM-MN]

I beat whipping cream with sugar and make whipped cream that will make peaks that stand up. My wife uses the same whipping cream and sugar and can't make the peaks stand.

I know the why of that but not the heading on the beer. My whipped cream stand up great peaks because I am more patient and will only try to do one thing at a time, giving the whipping time. My wife gets distracted with other things to do and doesn't whip it as long. I suspect the lack of heading on the young beer and the whipped cream that won't hold peaks to be related.

 

[Miraculix]

acidic conditions breaking amides bonds in protein molecules? low temp would take more time, but it will happen....

That would be a possibility.

 

[Beermeister32]

Possibly the yeast are producing a protein or something as they finally go dormant after carbonation or are releasing something into the beer as some of them die. Dunno.

 

[Broothru]

acidic conditions breaking amides bonds in protein molecules? low temp would take more time, but it will happen....

Might be on to something. Carbonic acid playing some kind of role, perhaps?

 

[beerjournl]

This always seems to be an endless debate especially when we start mixing in natural vs forced carb and other variables. What is probably happening is that the bottles opened earlier are carbonated, but not "fully" carbonated. If you could measure it with a "Zahm" or similar device to gauge total carb pressure, you'd find the carbonation is not yet done, hence the large bubbles and low head and mouthfeel. Co2 in solution, to the contrary of other statements, is just Co2 in solution. That part is a law of physics that depends on other factors that can make the difference in carbonated beer.... Time. That same time is also considered "aging" or "conditioning" as a brewery may do in a tank under cold and pressure to get a carbonated beer with proper aging to have the mouthfeel and tight carbonation feel. We always hear that fine bottle aged beer with natural carbonation have better characteristics than force carbonated product... well the magic is usually time, not the natural carbonation method itself. (lots of good arguments on that, feel free to search ) Levels of carbonation have a huge affect on the taste and feel of the finished product, but many times homebrewers fail to let the product actually finish. Time also allows, to some level, a chemical changes in the beer that also affect the taste, texture, and head retention. There is no simple answer other than you can't go around the physics, and you can't rush the finish. If there is a consistent problem with all finished beers and all the controls and aging are spot-on I'd suggest evaluating the entire process from the start that can rob the vitals from the finished beer.

 

[Miraculix]

This always seems to be an endless debate especially when we start mixing in natural vs forced carb and other variables. What is probably happening is that the bottles opened earlier are carbonated, but not "fully" carbonated. If you could measure it with a "Zahm" or similar device to gauge total carb pressure, you'd find the carbonation is not yet done, hence the large bubbles and low head and mouthfeel. Co2 in solution, to the contrary of other statements, is just Co2 in solution. That part is a law of physics that depends on other factors that can make the difference in carbonated beer.... Time. That same time is also considered "aging" or "conditioning" as a brewery may do in a tank under cold and pressure to get a carbonated beer with proper aging to have the mouthfeel and tight carbonation feel. We always hear that fine bottle aged beer with natural carbonation have better characteristics than force carbonated product... well the magic is usually time, not the natural carbonation method itself. (lots of good arguments on that, feel free to search ) Levels of carbonation have a huge affect on the taste and feel of the finished product, but many times homebrewers fail to let the product actually finish. Time also allows, to some level, a chemical changes in the beer that also affect the taste, texture, and head retention. There is no simple answer other than you can't go around the physics, and you can't rush the finish. If there is a consistent problem with all finished beers and all the controls and aging are spot-on I'd suggest evaluating the entire process from the start that can rob the vitals from the finished beer.

It is definitely not unfinished carbonation or low leves of co2 because of sugars not being converted to alcohol and co2 at the moment of trying the beer. I had the same effect with lowest carbonation mild type of beers and almost overcarbed pale lagers. Same storry, different carbonation levels.

Time certainly plays the major role and this is basically the reason for this thread. What is happening during that time that makes the difference?

 

[bracconiere]

What is happening tduring that time that makes the difference?

i just thought of coining the term, 'bottle break' lol...

 

[bracconiere]

for some reason by chance i was watching an episode of good eats, where alton was making merangue...and he recmomended adding a bit of cream of tarter to the whites, helps denature the protien to make them easier to whip?

maybe something there?

 

[beerjournl]

Rather than retype from many available sources, I'd suggest doing some reading on the "chemistry of beer aging" for the big answers and lost of $5 words. Here is a brief read...
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/wyphNb2YK8/

 

[Miraculix]

Rather than retype from many available sources, I'd suggest doing some reading on the "chemistry of beer aging" for the big answers and lost of $5 words. Here is a brief read...
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/wyphNb2YK8/

This one actually says that time is bad for foam. Might be true on the loooooong run, but not what I have ever witnessed with my beers.

 

[Spivey24]

I wonder if it’s the same process that happens with my kegs. I burst carbonate, then the first few days the beer pours like a cider and I am working to get any head. After that it is great for a week. Then beyond that I am fighting the foam. I always assumed it was just getting more carbonated sitting on the co2 even though I keep it at 8 psi, or that my lines were set up wrong. But maybe it’s just natural maturation of the beer. Still would like to figure something out for the fighting the foam issue, but I guess that is for another post.

 

[MaxStout]

Recent experience, don't know if it dovetails into what @Miraculix is talking about.

Brewed @Yooper's oatmeal stout, with the addition of some lactose in the boil. Pitched S-04, and fermented fully in just under 2 weeks (it had been at terminal gravity a few days). I usually let beers like this spend at least 3 weeks in the fermenter, but being done, thought I'd go ahead and bottle.

Bottled, carbed to 2.6 vols with corn sugar, and conditioned at 70-72F in a warm room. Tried one at 2 weeks--very little carbonation. Waited another week, tried another. Plenty of carbonation, but the head is 1/2", fizzy, soda pop-like, which collapses in minutes. Not creamy, no lacing on the glass. Beer tastes fine, just lacks that rich, creamy foam that should be seen in a beer with 8% oats and 4% flaked barley in the grist.

I'm wondering if leaving it in the fermenter longer might have improved the head. I'm ruling out the bottles and glassware--I never use any kind of detergents on either.

 

[McMullan]

A lack of 'cling' is the brewing term.

 

[Miraculix]

Recent experience, don't know if it dovetails into what @Miraculix is talking about.

Brewed @Yooper's oatmeal stout, with the addition of some lactose in the boil. Pitched S-04, and fermented fully in just under 2 weeks (it had been at terminal gravity a few days). I usually let beers like this spend at least 3 weeks in the fermenter, but being done, thought I'd go ahead and bottle.

Bottled, carbed to 2.6 vols with corn sugar, and conditioned at 70-72F in a warm room. Tried one at 2 weeks--very little carbonation. Waited another week, tried another. Plenty of carbonation, but the head is 1/2", fizzy, soda pop-like, which collapses in minutes. Not creamy, no lacing on the glass. Beer tastes fine, just lacks that rich, creamy foam that should be seen in a beer with 8% oats and 4% flaked barley in the grist.

I'm wondering if leaving it in the fermenter longer might have improved the head. I'm ruling out the bottles and glassware--I never use any kind of detergents on either.

I bet that this is exactly what I am talking about. Wait two to three more weeks and expect a huge difference. Btw, one common misconception, oats do not enhance foam, they actually destroy it once a certain threshhold has been reached (about 30% of the grist, no problem for you). But oats are great for yeast health, I made experiments which really showed that the yeast was happier in the beer with 10% oats in it.

I wonder if it’s the same process that happens with my kegs. I burst carbonate, then the first few days the beer pours like a cider and I am working to get any head. After that it is great for a week. Then beyond that I am fighting the foam. I always assumed it was just getting more carbonated sitting on the co2 even though I keep it at 8 psi, or that my lines were set up wrong. But maybe it’s just natural maturation of the beer. Still would like to figure something out for the fighting the foam issue, but I guess that is for another post.

Sounds pretty much like what I am experiencing when bottling!

 

[MaxStout]

FWIW, here's a pic of the oatmeal stout pour I'm enjoying now. A few minutes after I took this pic, the head dissipated to almost nothing. But the stout tastes great, with good aroma and mouthfeel, so I'm not terribly disappointed. Besides, I brewed this for my wife's birthday (one of the few beer styles she really enjoys), and she couldn't give two shiats about the head retention. Still...it kind of bugs me.

 

[MicroMickey]

A few minutes after I took this pic, the head dissipated to almost nothing.

By the image you posted, it looks like the glass isn't "beer clean". The bubbles seem to be sticking to the side of the glass which is a tell-tale sign that there is some film on the interior surfaces.

This is an old but very good article which illustrates what I'm saying.
https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/beer-foam/