first lager

[Aschecte]

Ok here's my situation I have a bunch of ales under my belt but this is my first lager. I have just brewed the wort and I'm currently cooling it to 70deg f. Question is this when I pitch do I leave it at room temp until activity or just pitch at room temp and then directly into the fridge? 1st time newb question but I really don't want to mess this up. Thanks.

 

[businesstime]

Most recommend chilling, then pitching. There are pros/cons either way. Pitching now ensures no wild yeast/bacteria get started while it's chilling; however, pitching now then reducing temperature can make some of that yeast floc out prematurely.

 

[Aschecte]

Most recommend chilling, then pitching. There are pros/cons either way. Pitching now ensures no wild yeast/bacteria get started while it's chilling; however, pitching now then reducing temperature can make some of that yeast floc out prematurely.

excellent thanks for the info I'll prob do a hybrid like pitch at 60 or so THANKS again !!!

 

[Bierliebhaber]

Hold up! You want your wort at ferment temp, as well as your yeast. Pitching is even more important with lagers. Do you have a starter--a big one? If you have followed proper sanitation practices, your wort should be fine until it reaches your target temp.

 

[sonex]

Hold up! You want your wort at ferment temp, as well as your yeast. Pitching is even more important with lagers. Do you have a starter--a big one? If you have followed proper sanitation practices, your wort should be fine until it reaches your target temp.

+1 you always want to chill to or a couple degrees below fermentation temp before pitching yeast. you will also need twice the yeast count for a lager vs a ale.

 

[Aschecte]

well i am so damn confused lol !!!! I tend to agree with you guys on HBT. I happened to also e-mail the tech dept at white labs... here's what they said which happens to also be on their vial ( I should learn to read ) they said warm vial for 3-6 hours while holding between 70-75deg wort temp then pitch maintain this temp till visible signs of fermentation then gradually reduce temp to 50-55deg F. That being said I cooled my wort too 55deg then pitched wlp840. Hope I didn't mess this up to bad as my fridge is having a hell of a time keeping up with this heat it's almost 100degrees out and in the future I'm going to go buy a chest freezer for lagering. Thanks for the advice.

 

[jigidyjim]

+1 you always want to chill to or a couple degrees below fermentation temp before pitching yeast. you will also need twice the yeast count for a lager vs a ale.

People do it both ways. My understanding is that if you pitch at ferm temp you have much less chance of diacetyl. If you pitch at ambient then cool down your yeast will get a kickstart, which helps if you are under pitching.

At least, that's what I've gathered from reading various posts about this.

 

[jonmohno]

Im just going to hydrate s-23 dry yeast at 70ish then pitch around 55 then ferement around 55 in a tub with ice bottles in the basement with temps of 66.This is my first lager also so,it will be interesting.This yeast is good for 60-8 deg. also.So cheers.

 

[repomanz]

welcome to lager brewing. I typically pitch immediately when i'm down to 65 to 70 degrees and then bring down the temp to 50 for primary fermentation.

Do not forget to do a diacetyl rest on your lager. You'll need to do this rest before fermentation ends (typically at the end)

 

[jonmohno]

So 55 for 3 weeks, then 67 for one week.Then bottle? I was reading not to go below 45 on s-33 yeast.Even though most lager at 35-40 for another month?
Would it be the same to bottle conditon room temp for 3 weeks then lager them in the fridge for a month?

 

[Aschecte]

welcome to lager brewing. I typically pitch immediately when i'm down to 65 to 70 degrees and then bring down the temp to 50 for primary fermentation.

Do not forget to do a diacetyl rest on your lager. You'll need to do this rest before fermentation ends (typically at the end)

my OG was 1.050 and I'm hoping to finish about 1.006-008 now that being said I have been told lagers take longer. I have no idea how much longer is there an average I know nothings exact but is like 2-3 weeks a safe bet than do my rest for I think it's like 3 days

 

[Aschecte]

So 55 for 3 weeks, then 67 for one week.Then bottle? I was reading not to go below 45 on this yeast.Even though most lager at 35-40 for another month?
Would it be the same to bottle conditon room temp for 3 weeks then lager them in the fridge for a month?

what about secondary I keep hearing about this with lagers? and after the rest and maybe secondary do I then go down to like 42-45 to lager for like another month? then bottle or skip the secondary and after the first month after the diacetyl rest go straight to bottle then drop to like 45 for a month/

 

[Bierliebhaber]

Here's the deal, I believe Whitelabs provides general info on pitching one vial without a starter. In that case, you would need the higher temp to help in yeast production and still be underpitching. Pitching a large starter allows you to pitch at lower temps, allowing for cleaner flavor. Also, pitching at ferment temp makes it less likely that the yeast will poop out on you from the temp drop.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

You lager in the secondary after d-rest. Some go with 1 day/OG point, so for you that would be 50 days. The lagering process can be sped up or slowed down. Lagering at the higher end can reduce the time, but lagering colder takes longer but is thougt to have a better end result.

 

[Yooper]

Here's the deal, I believe Whitelabs provides general info on pitching one vial without a starter. In that case, you would need the higher temp to help in yeast production and still be underpitching. Pitching a large starter allows you to pitch at lower temps, allowing for cleaner flavor. Also, pitching at ferment temp makes it less likely that the yeast will poop out on you from the temp drop.

I agree. White Labs makes a great product, but they sort of lie when they tell you how to pitch a lager. They tell you to pitch warm to compensate for underpitching so hugely, but if you read their website, they recommend against it!

The best "cleanest" lager will come from a HUGE starter at just under fermentation temperature. That means 4-5 packages of yeast, or a 2 gallon starter, and pitched at 45 degrees or so.

When you make an ale, do you add the yeast at 90 degrees, and then lower the beer to 65? No? Then why would you pitch 20-35 degrees too warm with a lager, which should be cleaner and crisper? (By the way, I know some people DO pitch their ales too warm, too, but it's not a good way to treat your yeast).

Pitching at 70 degrees to compensate for gross underpitching usually has some issues with it- first, if you wait until the signs of fermentation begin, and then lower the temperature, the vast majority of primary fermentation will be over before you ever get to 50 degrees. It takes a long time for 5 gallons of fermenting wort to cool! Secondly, it's hard to "catch" the yeast between reproductive and anaerobic fermentation stages, as it doesn't begin/end but sort of flows into the next stage. Third, flavors are created during this time and sometimes the sulfury notes, esters, and diacetyl created by the lager yeast at a too-warm temperature don't fade. And lastly, stressed yeast itself produces off-flavors. One package of White Labs in a 5 gallon batch of a lager is underpitching, which stresses the yeast, plus the temperature changes will also stress the yeast.

If you've already made the lager, it's best to just carry on and give it plenty of time to clean up the off-flavors created. But if you haven't made it yet, make a starter right away so at least you can have some yeast reproduction before pitching the yeast.

 

[Aschecte]

last question I promise at least for tonight... when after the next 64-74 days when everything is said and done will there still be enough yeast viable to carbonate the beer or do I need to add another vial or some champne yeast or something?

 

[Yooper]

last question I promise at least for tonight... when after the next 64-74 days when everything is said and done will there still be enough yeast viable to carbonate the beer or do I need to add another vial or some champne yeast or something?

It should be ok, but to ensure carbonation I would suggest adding 1/3 of a package of dry ale yeast. Nottingham will work well. I'd boil up the priming solution, cool it and add the 1/3 package of yeast and stir it well. Put that into your bottling bucket and then rack the beer into it. I've done that a few times, and it worked great! The beer carbed up well, but there was very little fermentation at the ale temperature for carbonation, so the flavor remained clean and crisp.

 

[Aschecte]

It should be ok, but to ensure carbonation I would suggest adding 1/3 of a package of dry ale yeast. Nottingham will work well. I'd boil up the priming solution, cool it and add the 1/3 package of yeast and stir it well. Put that into your bottling bucket and then rack the beer into it. I've done that a few times, and it worked great! The beer carbed up well, but there was very little fermentation at the ale temperature for carbonation, so the flavor remained clean and crisp.

do you carb at ale temp (70 deg ) or pitch ale yeast and back in at 35-40?

 

[Aschecte]

damnit I lied I asked another question sorry : ( : )

 

[Yooper]

do you carb at ale temp (70 deg ) or pitch ale yeast and back in at 35-40?

Room temperature. The lager period is over, and so I carb up the lager at room temperature. Ale yeast won't work at under about 57 degrees, and so it'd be pointless to pitch ale yeast and then keep the beer at lagering temperatures. Even lager yeast doesn't ferment below about 43-45 degrees.

 

[billf2112]

I was inspired by this post, so I went to grab a lager from the fridge...ughh no lager in there (must have drank more than I thought), so I am drinking a Red Ale instead.

I made the same mistake with my lager. Pitched at 68*, ended up with some esters but still a good brew. I did go 8 weeks at 40* in a swamp cooler, turned into a chore changing out the bottles, but it is worth it. Looking for a cheap fridge for the next lager.