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Fermenting in a corny keg?

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The worst example of floating bits after months on tap was in a lager that I had fermented and served from the same keg, no transfer, using W 34/70 yeast. I had done that before with success, but with ale yeast, US-05 probably. So I do think it's yeast-dependent.

Transferring is clearly a safeguard against that. But to me, the most annoying thing about fermenting in kegs - which is otherwise great - is transferring. You don't have the benefit of gravity, so you need pressure to push it out. I hate to use bottled CO2 because it's not easy for me to get it locally. If that's not a factor for you, then that problem evaporates.

Fermenting with a spunding valve can work, though; even building up just a few psi would facilitate beer flow up and out of the liquid port, and down tubing into a serving keg. Then just open up the PRV's on both kegs to keep things going.

Also I'm on the fence with floating dip tubes. As I mentioned above, it might be preferable to blow out sediment from the bottom at the beginning "once and for all" vs. to risk having it become suspended later. Depends how patient one is about clearing at the beginning.
I wonder how some of the Kveik strains would be for keg-fermenting. I've brewed two beers with Kveik (Voss and Lutra), but fermented in my Speidel fermenter. In both cases they dropped fast, hard, and tight.
 
I agree that some yeast present no problem at all with the ferment-and-serve method.

To me, a keg with a bottom-mounted ball valve and spigot would be the perfect fermenter! Stainless, pressure, gravity transfers, and easy sampling all in one. I would happily sacrifice one of my older kegs to try it. Maybe that's a good project.
 
Transferring is clearly a safeguard against that. But to me, the most annoying thing about fermenting in kegs - which is otherwise great - is transferring. You don't have the benefit of gravity, so you need pressure to push it out. I hate to use bottled CO2 because it's not easy for me to get it locally. If that's not a factor for you, then that problem evaporates.

Not sure if you're already aware of this or have tried it before, but you can certainly use gravity to do a closed transfer to siphon the beer from fermenting keg to serving keg. You just need to position the fermenter above the serving keg and create a pressure differential (~5psi should be enough) to start a siphon. This could be achieved by spunding, sealing the fermenter at the very end of fermentation, or with a quick blast of CO2. Once the siphon gets started, you connect the gas in posts from both kegs together to equalize the pressure and let gravity do its thing. This process has worked every time for me, except for heavily dry hopped beers which sometimes need a little extra "push".
 
Full disclosure: I just setup a BRUTUS type single tier HERMS setup using keggles. I havent ever done a AG brew (I've done many of the single pot and extract brews but decided to get more invested). I have a homemade 2 corny keg kegerator. Wanted to provide a tiny bit of context for my question:

My question is about how much volume (for fermentation) do you put in a 5 gal corny keg? My target is to have 11 gallons at the end of a brew (knowing there will be additional volume losses after fermentation). I cant recall what the risk is to having additional head space in a fermentor (hope I am using the correct terms here). When i've done extract brewing (5 gal batch) I've filled my 6 gallon brew bucket and then transferred it, for secondary fermention, to a 6 gallon glass carboy several days later. Anyways from reading this thread (thanks for all the approaches shared) it seems like some of you (@McKnuckle) transfer directly to your modified fermenting corny keg and then transfer from there to the serving keg (and thus not doing the extra settling step I'm used to with my limited extract brewing experience), is this correct?

Thanks for any info you can share, hope I didnt derail too far from the OP's question.
 
Regarding the question you tagged me about... That's correct; I do any settling in the serving keg itself.

My best method, not always followed to a tee, is:
  1. Chill wort most of the way down in the kettle
  2. Rack all wort including trub to a clear carboy, plug with a stopper, refrigerate
  3. After trub settles (1-2 hrs), siphon clear wort above the trub into fermenter
  4. Ferment either to FG or, if spunding, within a few gravity points
  5. Closed transfer into serving keg equipped w/floating dip tube, and optionally spund
  6. Refrigerate serving keg, place on gas at serving pressure, and condition 2-3 weeks
 
As long as you are venting the keg to release fermentation CO2, the headspace will be easily and quickly purged. You could ferment 1 gallon in there.
 
@McKnuckle @moreb33rplz
Follow up question: I have finally setup the corny kegs as primary fermentors and am using a spunding valve. I brewed a pale ale on 4/10/2021 and have active fermentation going on (the pressure is higher than when started). The question is, the spunding valve is releasing the gasses as it exceeds the set pressure (which is around 12psi), do I need to be pushing that CO2 into a starsan solution blowoff setup? I think the spunding valve protects me from sucking air back into the keg (plus it should always have a positive pressure on the inside of the keg, so no back suction). When I open my converted fridge to fermentation chamber door I can get a pleasent smell of the off gassing. Does this seem like an acceptable way forward (to let it vent to the interior of the chamber)? I know I could try to capture the CO2, but my space is really limited to put in another vessel. See pictures.

Bit more information:
Hi All, So I appreciate the guidance you all provided for my questions back in Nov of 2020. I brewed my first 10 gal batch in January and decided to stick to the fermenting buckets for that batch (minimize the amount of new things, brewing AG fr the first time was enough newness). Fast forward to April 10 2021 and my friend and I just brewed a pale ale, and I am attempting the corny keg fermentation.

I am using three kegs for the batch size was 13 gallons, so roughly have the following volumes for 3 kegs: 4.5, 4.5, and 3 gallons.

I used my CFC to get the temp down to 70F in each vessel and then pitched my yeast, and closed the kegs up, hit it with CO2 and bled the air out through the Pressure relief valve. I put 12 psi of CO2 in each keg, attached a blowtie spunding valve, and have the kegs stored in a fridge converted to fermentation chamber with temp set to 70F.

After 24 hours it is apparent that the yeast is doing its thing, the pressure climbed in each vessel (I have had to manually adjusted the spunding valves to try and keep the pressure close to 12 psi, for the pressure had risen to 18psi in two of the kegs, the third I suspect had a slow leak so I took care of that and it rose to 15 psi).

So here are pictures, I didnt take any pictures of the corny kegs interior (with the fine mesh Hop cylinder as a filter around the pick up tubes, but it looks the same as McKnuckle showed in his pics (for I copied based on his pics).
 

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Follow up question: I have finally setup the corny kegs as primary fermentors and am using a spunding valve. I brewed a pale ale on 4/10/2021 and have active fermentation going on (the pressure is higher than when started). The question is, the spunding valve is releasing the gasses as it exceeds the set pressure (which is around 12psi), do I need to be pushing that CO2 into a starsan solution blowoff setup? I think the spunding valve protects me from sucking air back into the keg (plus it should always have a positive pressure on the inside of the keg, so no back suction). When I open my converted fridge to fermentation chamber door I can get a pleasent smell of the off gassing. Does this seem like an acceptable way forward (to let it vent to the interior of the chamber)? I know I could try to capture the CO2, but my space is really limited to put in another vessel. See pictures.
Spunding valves are sealed and can only release pressure. No air entering backwards. I generally let my keg fermentations go for a couple days in the blow off jar then put the spunding valve on inside my fermentation fridge
 
Spunding valves are sealed and can only release pressure. No air entering backwards. I generally let my keg fermentations go for a couple days in the blow off jar then put the spunding valve on inside my fermentation fridge
Thanks, I've done a bit of reading of doing primary fermentation under pressure (like 12psi), I decided to take that route, I know for some styles it is not advised but my understanding is for hoppy beers it helps with minimizing esters. Is there a reason you do not ferment underpressure to start? Just curious for this is all very new...
 
Thanks, I've done a bit of reading of doing primary fermentation under pressure (like 12psi), I decided to take that route, I know for some styles it is not advised but my understanding is for hoppy beers it helps with minimizing esters. Is there a reason you do not ferment underpressure to start? Just curious for this is all very new...
I do primarily all hoppy beers and select my yeast based on the characteristics I want in that beer and ferment them within their optimum temp ranges. So I don't really feel the need to suppress anything. I guess if you're fermenting warmer than usual and you may get undesirable esters or something I could see it. I've heard of people fermenting lagers under pressure so they could go warmer without off-flavors. If it works for you though have at it
 
Has anyone fermented in a keg and just left the standard dip tube in without cutting/bending/replacing with a floating dip tube?

Would the trub cause the flow to not start, or would it just blast the trub out, then to the clean beer?
 
Has anyone fermented in a keg and just left the standard dip tube in without cutting/bending/replacing with a floating dip tube?

Would the trub cause the flow to not start, or would it just blast the trub out, then to the clean beer?
I think there's a very good chance you'll get a clog. Nothing worse than having a clog and having to open up the fermenter totally negating the whole point of fermenting in the keg to limit O2. I would either use the floating dip tube or cut the reg dip tube slightly and put a filter around it. I use one of those hop canisters.
 
Has anyone fermented in a keg and just left the standard dip tube in without cutting/bending/replacing with a floating dip tube?

Would the trub cause the flow to not start, or would it just blast the trub out, then to the clean beer?
there is a long thread have you tried fermenting and serving from the same keg without transferring? about fermenting and serving in the same keg. I haven't yet tried it, but it seems to work both ways according to folks on the other thread. :mug:
 
Has anyone fermented in a keg and just left the standard dip tube in without cutting/bending/replacing with a floating dip tube?

Would the trub cause the flow to not start, or would it just blast the trub out, then to the clean beer?
Nope...You just get a yeast harvest in your first pint. But it's best to filter/screen your wort from kettle to keg so you get max yeast cake and minimal trub.
 
Thanks, I've done a bit of reading of doing primary fermentation under pressure (like 12psi), I decided to take that route, I know for some styles it is not advised but my understanding is for hoppy beers it helps with minimizing esters. Is there a reason you do not ferment underpressure to start? Just curious for this is all very new...
I've found that lagers are fine under pressure from the start...not huge pressure but just a few PSI...5/10/15 something like that is probably fine.

I've found that ales do not produce the desired "yeast expressions" (especially hefe) under pressure...so use a blow off tube first. When it slows and is winding down, remove blow off tube and seal/spund for the finish.
 
Nope...You just get a yeast harvest in your first pint. But it's best to filter/screen your wort from kettle to keg so you get max yeast cake and minimal trub.

Very interesting..I may try this next time. I usually filter from my kettle to the keg already.

The only other concern I would have is that it might gunk up the dip tube/beer line causing several pours to be yeasty. Maybe pour the first pint or two from a picnic tap?
 
Question - is it generally bad practice to use an iSpindel when pressure fermenting in a corny keg? I'm thinking for two reasons (one catastrophic).
1. The iSPindel can't take the pressure and will fill up with beer and contaminate the beer.
2. The WiFi signal can't penetrate the Stainless Steel keg to talk to my Fermentrack controller.
 
Question - is it generally bad practice to use an iSpindel when pressure fermenting in a corny keg? I'm thinking for two reasons (one catastrophic).
1. The iSPindel can't take the pressure and will fill up with beer and contaminate the beer.
2. The WiFi signal can't penetrate the Stainless Steel keg to talk to my Fermentrack controller.
I ferment in cornies within iSpindel. It works just fine, except I needed to add a a repeater to get the signal back to the router.
I pressure ferment too. I had one seep a little bit, the other was just fine. I only let it get to 10-15 PSI. Haven't tried higher yet. It might depend on the pelting being used. Some also try to add an o-oring to help seal it.
 
Or, you can capture fermentation CO2 in a second keg, either with spunding to retain pressure or with the blow-off on the second keg. Either way, it will purge that keg easily. Then you can transfer from the ferment keg into the serving keg with no oxygen exposure
Ah - ingenious ... if intending to transfer, let the fermenting keg vent through the serving keg to mostly purge air with C02 without running down a tank - nice
 
Wow!! Nearly three years since I started this topic and I still haven't fermented in a keg. :)
But...I think I'm going to give it a go with my next brew. Does anyone reading this know if 4.5 gallons of fermenting beer in a keg will CO2-purge two other 5 gallon corny kegs set up in a chain? I have an experiment I want to try using three kegs.
 
Wow!! Nearly three years since I started this topic and I still haven't fermented in a keg. :)
But...I think I'm going to give it a go with my next brew. Does anyone reading this know if 4.5 gallons of fermenting beer in a keg will CO2-purge two other 5 gallon corny kegs set up in a chain? I have an experiment I want to try using three kegs.
It's the only way I brew anymore, you have to try it.
 
Wow!! Nearly three years since I started this topic and I still haven't fermented in a keg. :)
But...I think I'm going to give it a go with my next brew. Does anyone reading this know if 4.5 gallons of fermenting beer in a keg will CO2-purge two other 5 gallon corny kegs set up in a chain? I have an experiment I want to try using three kegs.
People here have posted the math related to the amount of CO2 created in a fermentation and it seems plenty sufficient to purge 2 kegs. I often have 2 kegs(dry hop keg, serving keg) daisy chained to my ferm keg to be purged and it seems to work fine
 
Watch this space. Imma write a epic response that will leave you amazed and enthused :ban: (or dazed and confused :confused:, or just whatever ... :rolleyes: :goat:)

Stay tuned

Brew on :mug:

============================================================================

Ok, you've waited long enough, here is my analysis of the OP's questions. You be the judge, is it epic or not? Worth the wait, or a big let down?

Pull up your waders, it's gonna get deep here. You might want to take this on while drinking coffee rather than beer. :D

============================================================================

Let's break this down into manageable pieces, and then look at them one at a time.

First question: Does the continuous flow of CO2 from the fermenter create any different dilution kinetics than the typical multiple cycles of pressurize then vent?

When we pressurize the headspace of a keg we produce a burst of CO2 gas originating at the gas in tube. This burst creates turbulence in the headspace which very effectively mixes the starting headspace gas and the added CO2. We can safely assume that the gases are well mixed prior to the vent cycle. This means we can use static, or equilibrium, math to determine the amount of dilution. We want to know solute concentration in a solution when additional diluent is added to a solution. In our case the solution is a gas solution, the solute is oxygen (O2), and the diluent is CO2. For one dilution (purge) cycle, the change in solute concentration is:
New_Conc = Prev_Conc * Starting_Amount / (Starting_Amount + Diluent_Amount)​
When working with gases in fixed volume vessels, the "amount" of gas is proportional to the absolute pressure (psia), and absolute pressure equals gauge pressure (psig) plus atmospheric pressure (14.695 psia at sea level.) This follows from the universal gas law: PV = nRT. Thus the original "amount" of gas is 14.7 psia, and the diluent amount of gas is the pressure that we add to the keg, so the dilution per cycle becomes:
New_O2_Conc = Prev_O2_Conc * 14.7 psia / (14.7 psia + Purge_Pressure)​
After we pressurize for the purge, we still have the same amount of O2 in the headspace that we started with, but the concentration is lower. Once we vent the headspace, the pressure drops back to 14.7 psia, and we have less total gas than we had before. Venting doesn't change the O2 concentration in the headspace, but since it does reduce the total amount of gas in the headspace, the amount of O2 goes down as well. The pressurize part of the purge cycle reduces the O2 concentration in the gas mix, and the venting then reduces the O2 amount. The effect of additional purge cycles is multiplicative, so the formula for multiple purge cycles is:
Final_O2_Conc = Orig_O2_Conc * (14.7 / (14.7 + Purge_Pressure)) ^ N​
Where N = number of purge cycles​
The O2 concentration in air is 21% or 210,000 ppm. If we assume that the keg headspace starts out as air, then we can calculate and plot the resultant headspace O2 concentration for various numbers of purge cycles at different pressures.

View attachment 402029

View attachment 402030

So, what happens if instead of doing pressurize/vent cycles, we flow CO2 into a vessel that originally contains air? Does the flow improve the dilution and removal efficiency of O2 compared to the cyclic process? We can argue that if the CO2 inflow is fast enough that CO2 comes in faster than it can mix with the air, then it could form a sort of gas piston that would push air ahead of it towards the vent, and that this would push out more O2 per volume of CO2 than if complete mixing of incoming CO2 and existing gas occurred (as it does in the pressurize/vent case.)

The best case for non-mixing of CO2 and headspace would be if there were absolutely no internal "air" currents, such that the only mixing of CO2 with headspace gas would be via diffusion. So the question comes down to: Is the linear CO2 flow rate faster than the diffusion velocity of CO2 in air? If the CO2 flow rate were much faster than diffusion, then mixing would be limited, and continuous flow would be more efficient than purge/vent. If CO2 flow rate were much slower than diffusion, then gases would be mostly mixed, and continuous flow would not be any more efficient than pressurize/vent. If the flow rate and diffusion rates were of the same order of magnitude, then there would be significant, but not complete, mixing, making this the most complex scenario to analyze.

To start we need to get an estimate of the diffusion velocity of CO2 in air. If we limit our analysis to one dimensional flow (say from bottom to top of a keg, uniform velocity across the width), things will be much simpler, but still valid. Fick's first law of diffusion is (ref: Diffusion - Wikipedia):
Flux = -D * (𝚫Conc / 𝚫Dist)​
Where Flux is in mass/area-time,​
D is the diffusion coefficient, and​
𝚫Conc / 𝚫Dist is the concentration gradient​
If we divide Flux [mass/area-time] by density [mass/volume] we get linear velocity [dist/time] which is what we are looking for.

The diffusion coefficient for CO2 in air is about 0.15 cm^2/sec (ref: Oxygen Diffusion/Air - Cornell Composting) Now if we make some assumptions about gradients we might encounter, we can estimate a linear CO2 flow rate due to diffusion. We will use approximate numbers for simplicity, since we are only looking for order of magnitude estimates of velocity.

A corny keg has a volume of about 20 L or 20,000 cm^3, and a height of about 55 cm, leaving a cross sectional area of about 20,000 cm^3 / 55 cm = 364 cm^2. The density of CO2 at STP is about 2 g/L or 0.002 g/cm^3 (ref: Gases - Densities.) If we assume 2.5 cm of pure CO2 at the bottom of the keg, and 2.5 cm of air at the top of the keg, and a uniform concentration gradient from the bottom to the top, the CO2 gradient becomes:
𝚫Conc / 𝚫Dist = (0 - 0.002 g/cm^3) / 50 cm = -4.0e-5 g/cm^4​
The CO2 flux becomes:
Flux = -D * (𝚫Conc / 𝚫Dist) = -0.15 cm^2/sec * (-4.0e-5 g/cm^4) = 6.0e-6 g/cm^2-sec​
And finally the linear velocity of CO2 due to diffusion is:
CO2_Diffusion_Velosity = CO2_Flux / CO2_Density = 6.0e-6 g/cm^2-sec / 0.002 g/cm^3 = 0.003 cm/sec​
Next we need to determine the linear flow velocity of CO2 being fed through a keg from an active fermentation.

The reaction for fermentation of maltose is:
Maltose + H2O --> 2 Dextrose --> 4 Ethanol + 4 CO2​
Maltose has a molecular weight of 342.30 g/mol and CO2 has a molecular weight of 44.01 g/mol, so each gram of maltose fermented generates 4 * 44.01 / 342.3 = 0.5143 gram of CO2. So, if we determine how much sugar we ferment over what period of time, we can calculate how much CO2 we created and calculate an average flow rate over the cross section of a keg.

Let's work an example assuming 20 L of wort with an OG of 1.050 that achieves 80% apparent attenuation over a four day fermentation. First we have to determine how much sugar we started with. An SG of 1.050 is equivalent to 12.39°Plato, or 12.39% sugar by weight. To convert SG to plato use the following formula (ref: Brix - Wikipedia):
°Plato = -616.868 + 1111.14 * SG - 630.272 * SG^2 + 135.9975 * SG^3 @ 20°C​
Water at 20°C has a density of 0.9982 kg/L, so the weight of 20 L of wort @ 1.050 is:
20 L * 1.050 * 0.9982 kg/L = 20.96 kg​
This wort is 12.39% sugar by weight, so the weight of sugar is 2.597 kg. At 80% apparent attenuation, this beer would have an FG of 1.010, or 2.561°Plato. Since the presence of alcohol affects the SG the actual attenuation of the beer is lower (the final °Plato is higher), we must correct the final °Plato using the Balling approximation (ref: https://byo.com/hops/item/408-calcu...ion-extract-and-calories-advanced-homebrewing):
Real_Final_°P = Apparent_Final_°P * 0.8114 + Original_°P * 0.1886​
And, plugging in the numbers for our example:
Real_Final_°P = 2.561 * 0.8114 + 12.39 * 0.1886 = 4.415°P​
Thus the finished beer contains 4.415% by weight of sugar, which works out to:
Final_Sugar_Weight = 20 L * 1.010 * 0.9982 kg/L * 0.04415 = 0.890 kg​
The total sugar fermented works out to:
Fermented_Sugar_Weight = 2.597 kg - 0.890 kg = 1.707 kg​
And the total weight of CO2 created works out to:
CO2_Weight_Created = 1.707 kg_Maltose * 0.5143 kg_CO2/kg_Maltose = 0.878 kg or 878 g of CO2​
Since CO2 has a density of about 2 g/L, we created about 439 L or 439,000 cm^3 of CO2.

If we push our CO2 through the keg at a constant rate over a four day fermentation, the flow rate of the CO2 over the 364 cm^2 cross section of the keg works out to:
CO2_Velocity = 439000 cm^3 / (4 days * 24 hr/day * 3600 sec/hr * 364 cm^2) = 0.0035 cm/sec​
Damn, that works out almost the same as our diffusion velocity of 0.003 cm/sec. So, we are in the complex, hard (i.e. infeasible) to analyze regime of relative flow rates. So, what do we do now? Well, we punt, and do the worst case analysis which would assume that we get no O2 removal assist from the sweeping action of the bulk CO2 flow. As a result of doing this our residual O2 levels will be less than we calculate, so we will have a built in safety factor.

So, the answer to our first question is: Yes, the bulk CO2 flow probably helps sweep out more O2 than do simple pressurize/vent cycles, but the analysis is too difficult, so we'll just ignore the flow sweep effect, and end up with a pessimistic estimate of our final purged keg O2 levels (i.e. things will actually be better than the calculations show.)

Second question: What's the worst case O2 levels left in a keg purged with the output of an active fermentation?

So, just how do we attack a continuous slow purge flow analytically? Assume a tube runs from the fermenter to the keg liquid post, and an airlock is fitted to the keg gas post. Then every time the airlock bubbles you lose a small volume of the current gas mix (which we are assuming is homogeneous) from the keg and fermenter headspace. Let's call this volume "𝚫V", and the total volume of the fermenter headspace, keg, tube, etc. "V". Furthermore, let's call the current concentration of O2 in V "C". We then have the following:
Total O2 in V before bubble = C * V​
O2 lost to bubble = C * 𝚫V​
Total O2 in V after bubble = C (V - 𝚫V)​
Concentration of O2 in V after bubble = C * (V - 𝚫V) / V​
If C[0] is the concentration of O2 initially, then after "N" bubbles, the current concentration of O2 is:
C = C[0] * ((V - 𝚫V) / V)^N​
For V = 25 L and 𝚫V = 0.0001 L (0.1 mL), (V - 𝚫V) / V = 0.9999960. We're not getting much purging action per bubble; this doesn't look very promising yet.

So, where will we end up at the end of the example fermentation above? Well, we generate 439 L of CO2 from fermentation, and if we divide that into 0.0001 L bubbles, we produce a total of 4,390,000 bubbles. If we plug that into our formula above, and start with 210,000 ppm of O2 in V, then we have:
Final O2 Conc = 210000 ppm * ((25 L - 0.0001 L) / 25 L)^4390000 = 0.005 ppm​
Believe it or not, we reduce the O2 concentration from 21% by volume to 5 parts per billion by volume! :smack: :ban: :ban: :ban: Talk about the power of compounding!

We can only conclude that using the output of a reasonable size fermentation can very effectively purge a keg of O2.

Coming next, the spreadsheet to allow you to do your own calculations.

Brew on :mug:
The definitive answer.
 
People here have posted the math related to the amount of CO2 created in a fermentation and it seems plenty sufficient to purge 2 kegs. I often have 2 kegs(dry hop keg, serving keg) daisy chained to my ferm keg to be purged and it seems to work fine
How do you dry hop in this case? Isn't the intent to have an O2 free sanitized keg? How do you get the hops in?
 
Lots of good reading on this thread and perfect timing as I have been thinking of doing this and ditching my buckets and all the other crud I bought with my starter kit (my brother is getting into it so I might just give it to him with a small delivery fee, LOL). My question is, I have a 5 gallon Torpedo keg and I do 5 gallon batches. Usually what ends up in the fermenter is about 5 gallons, so what, if any, cautions do I have to have when fermenting? I have read some have had some blow off issues, but the kegs will be in a closet that is easily cleaned. If I am going to run a Spunding valve and try to catch the CO2 from the fermentation how would I get the Ferm CO2 from the fermenting keg to the serving keg? This is all very new to me, but seems to be a nice way to ditch a lot of extra equipment and make better beers.
 

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