Ferment temps - facts vs. myths please..

[PHBalanced]

Thanks for being the 3rd person to contribute to temps.

You're most welcome - but to contradict your other point I oxygenate the hell out of my wort using my IC and making a nice bubble bath for my yeasties..... Just to add to the conversation.

 

[jkarp]

My prediction for his next thread: "Blow off tubes - Fact vs. Myth" in which he'll explain that because he didn't need one on his first batch, he will never need one. Then continue to argue the point even after many people have posted pictures of their blow offs.

Speaking of blowoff tubes - I racked 4 gal of American Wheat into my 4.7 gal fermenter Sunday, knowing it was gonna blow. Came home last night to 4 cats absolutely captivated with the fermenter blowing massive bubbles in Starsan.

 

[BrookdaleBrew]

Speaking of blowoff tubes - I racked 4 gal of American Wheat into my 4.7 gal fermenter Sunday, knowing it was gonna blow. Came home last night to 4 cats absolutely captivated with the fermenter blowing massive bubbles in Starsan.

My cat loves watching my airlock bubble as well. She also really seems to like the smell of fermenting beer.

 

[TheCookieMonster]

I wouldn't have told him where to get Gelatin, for the same reason I won't tell him where to get cheap Oxygen, Co2, and other gasses in Toronto.

Thanks for the help.

 

[TheCookieMonster]

The grocery store. Use the unflavored, 1 envelope per batch...

THANKS! I will be running out right now to get some.

Oxygen and Gelatin is one my shoppin list today.

 

[ChshreCat]

THANKS! I will be running out right now to get some.

Oxygen and Gelatin is one my shoppin list today.

Keep an open mind and we'll make a brewer outta you yet!

 

[Netflyer]

Whiskey - classic post!

Cookie monster, the problem with knowing all of this stuff is you actually have to brew, and brew a lot. Knowing and actualizing are two very different things. That said, don't throw your batches away when the fermentations get out of your control, don't throw the batches away when you don't hit your strike or steep temperatures, don't throw the batches away when you get a bee or other various bugs landing in your boil, and don't throw the batches away when you think you have an infection because you are sure you didn't clean something properly... oh and don't use the wrong cleaner, it may screw up the flavor of your winning brew.

One more thing about Wyeast. They clearly recommend the proper amount of yeast for your batches depending upon the starting gravity of the batch. They don't recommend 2 packs of activator unless you are over 1.060 ... Activator costs over 5 bucks typically and there are not too many people who would rather spend 10 bucks than make a starter. You mentioned or at least intimated the possibility of ruining your batch by 'throwing in 1/2 gallon of starter'. Dude, you make a 2L starter, the yeast eat the DME and multiply. You let the starter settle, decant the 1/2 gallon of liquid and use the newly made multiplied yeast for your batch. You don't increase the volume of your batch but by the 1/2" of yeast on the bottom of your flask and you definitly have more than 2 activator packs. Many of us harvest yeast and make slats, we can grow up the slat with a starter in a few days and we are off to the races.

Also, yeast need O2 in their cell division stages. You can definitely over oxygenate but most of us follow directions and use an airstone and oxygenate for 1 minute. My fermentations are vigorous and w/in 3 hours of when I pitch my starter. Start at a low temperature and if the recipe calls for a very low diacetyl you may need to raise the temperature in the last 3rd of fermentation to make sure fermentation completes (Jamil recommended this for his light stout recipe because 1084 might need some help to complete and he says the temp should be raised from 68 to 70 in the last 3rd of fermentation) Again, it is case by case, yeast by yeast and wort by wort monster dude... There is no absolute here. Sure we could say, ferment this wort at this temp with this yeast but until you actually have a beer to talk about it is silly to even get specific. That said you have enough general knowledge to be dangerous as you are proving. Go brew and learn, see if you even like brewing... it may frustrate the heck out of you.

 

[Netflyer]

here comes more BS about how Knox won't work......

I just used it on my aberdeen session haus ale and it worked perfecto, looks like a clear, golden lager in the glass. Hey, I have heard though that gelatin is not for all types of beer... not sure why but I'm sure someone will tell me :cross:

 

[ChshreCat]

I just used it on my aberdeen session haus ale and it worked perfecto, looks like a clear, golden lager in the glass. Hey, I have heard though that gelatin is not for all types of beer... not sure why but I'm sure someone will tell me :cross:

Jamil will

 

[Weezknight]

After this thread, I'm starting to wonder if the "J" in WWJD means something other than what I thought it did.

I will say, though, that I do enjoy all of the stuff that Jamil puts out there, it's certainly helped me a lot, too. But for every 1 thing he is able to put out there, as one person, I find 50 more good things here from 50 more people!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Since I've yet to be a supposedly worthy contributor, here are my observations regarding fermentation temperature. I see fermentation temperatures roughly 5 degrees warmer than ambient when pitching ales. I try to pitch most ale yeast between 60 and 65 degrees F. For several years, I kept my fermenter in a chamber that was 60 degrees F +/- 1 degree. The wort/beer temperature usually rose to 65 +/- 1 degree for the first 1-3 days of fermentation. I always make a starter when using liquid yeast, but I most frequently use rehydrated US-05, S-04, or Nottingham. If I choose to ferment outside the controlled environment, it's usually a small batch that winds up inside the house. In that case, my fermentation is in the mid 70's. I definitely notice a stronger (sometimes too strong) ester profile in those batches.

 

[smizak]

Oh right, thanks Yuri for getting me on point too. I've seen almost 10 degree differences in ambient vs. beer temp. I definitely noticed that fast working, aggressive strains like Belgians and S-04 produce more heat than say US-05.



Hey Yuri, what's in your avatar? It almost looks like an Atmel ATMEGA8 on that board. I use a lot of those at work, one actually handles my fermentation temperature control.

 

[bob1852]

Hey Yuri, what's in your avatar? It almost looks like an Atmel ATMEGA8 on that board. I use a lot of those at work, one actually handles my fermentation temperature control.

I thought it was the WOPR from WarGames

 

[smizak]

i thought it was the wopr from wargames :d

do. You. Want. To. Play. A. Game. Of. Chess?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

It's an Arduino microcontroller prototyping board. They've gotten very popular with the amateur electronics crowd due to the simple USB interface and C++ based IDE. The processor is usually an ATmega 168 or 328. I have several and have used them in various projects. Presently, there's one in my brewery that monitors and/or controls all sorts of parameters.

 

[Gilbey]

Can you tell me what kind of thermometers those are? Are they submersible?

Thank you!

Alan

 

[bctdi]

If anything this thread shows the wide range of different temps that can be generated by the yeast during fermentation....seems anywhere from 3 to 10 degrees depending on the gravity / yeast strain / pitching rate. This basically drives home the point that the easiest thing to do is control the temp of fermentation based on actual wort temp and not ambient temp...if the temp probe is taped to the carboy or in the wort itself and and attached to a temp controller who cares what the differential is between wort temp and ambient?The controller will maintain whatever temp it is set at based on the temp of the wort itself no matter how much heat the yeast generate which is pretty much what most of the original replies to the OP were saying. Of course not everyone has a temp controller so they will need to make an estimate based on all the variables involved as to what ambient temp to put the fermentor in which allows for fermentation heat generation but still keeps the temp within the proper range for that particular yeast strain.Most of the original replies to the OP also drove this point home by recommending a temp at the lower range for a particular yeast strain thereby keeping within the proper temp range even during the heat generation of fermentation.So contrary to what the cookiemonster says about folks not giving him an answer....I don`t see how the replies could have been more forthcoming...if things were still fuzzy to the OP I would suggest reading "how to brew" by John Palmer....sometimes it helps to have a basic understanding of the brewing / fermenting process.

 

[AnOldUR]

Can you tell me what kind of thermometers those are? Are they submersible?

I got them as a close-out on line (Jasco Products Company), but they're no longer listed on the site. They'er not submersible, but I picked up

these on ebay and they are. Haven't tried one in the fermenter yet.

 

[TheCookieMonster]

If anything this thread shows the wide range of different temps that can be generated by the yeast during fermentation....seems anywhere from 3 to 10 degrees depending on the gravity / yeast strain / pitching rate.

I'd like to disagree with that.

Let's be honest, those experienced brewers who pay attention to their temps would be able to tell you right off the bat how much their wort temp increases in general. If you are making a 5% session, then you should know how likely it is that the wort will be increasing.

Instead, people were grasping at the 'exceptions' and saying it could be anything in some 'wide range'. And the temps were 'up in the air'. Like a lottery or shaking an 8-ball.

That is simply misleading and not good info that anyone can benefit from.

If you have brewed 250 batches, then you should know the answer easily to this question if you pay attention to your temps. If you don't know the answer to this than I don't know what to say.

From what I've gathered, my 5% session beer will be 3-5 degrees above ambient. I'm going to factor for 4 degrees to keep it in the middle. When the temp drops, I'll start to raise the temp day by day by 1 degree. Keep the temps stable (according to Jamil).

This basically drives home the point that the easiest thing to do is control the temp of fermentation based on actual wort temp and not ambient temp...

The problem with this, is that there is a 12 hour lag (i think Palmer said this) or so from the air change to the wort change. You actually want to stay 1 step ahead of where you know the temp will go next. So if your wort goes to 66, your temp gauge will get flagged to cool down by 1 degree. By this time it's too late because the temp has increased.

I thought people would be in touch with their ferment temps through out the ferment cycle. I guess not that many pay attention to it. Jamil promotes a stable temp throughout the whole process. The later in the ferment, the more the temp can increase he says without any ill effects. I think he said it's the beginning few days that determine what will happen later on.

if things were still fuzzy to the OP I would suggest reading "how to brew" by John Palmer....sometimes it helps to have a basic understanding of the brewing / fermenting process.

That's all I've been listening to all day.

Last night I heard Palmer say to stop sparging. He said that the lower efficiency, the better the wort and better the beer. He said to ADD hot water to the boil kettle to bring it to pre-boil volume and not to sparge.

I'm now fascinated with this no sparge method if it will produce this great wort that he mentions.

If you don't believe me, goto http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/553
141 min and here him talk about 'stop sparging'. He's saying to get 14lbs of malt. Wow! You should listen the man himself talk about this!

 

[Gilbey]

I got them as a close-out on line (Jasco Products Company), but they're no longer listed on the site. They'er not submersible, but I picked up

these on ebay and they are. Haven't tried one in the fermenter yet.

Thank you. I just order 6 to try them out. Hopefully they are relatively accurate. Even if they only last a few batches at $.99 each its not a big deal.

Oh, and as a RANK AMATURE brewer this thread has shed a lot of light on fermentation temps. I always made an effort to keep my ambient temps within the range of the yeast recommendations, but other than that I didn't really think about it. Now I AM thinking about it, and I hope it helps me make better beer. Thank you for helping me learn.

I live in NJ and we have a pretty wide temperature range through the seasons. In the summer it can be up to 100F (extreme) and in the winter it can get down to 0F (extreme). Like another memeber said I have several locations in my house (garage, laundry, pantry, basement, etc)where I know the ambient temps through the seasons, so I adjust my fermenter locations accordingly as best I can. I have an extra fridge that I can use for a lager now and again, but it also has to store the extra food my family uses (like milk), so I can't go raising it up to 60F . I guess I need some more equipment .

Alan

 

[jmo88]

Cookie, some of what you just said in your last post I agree with. Although, yeast strain makes a difference for me, in terms of temp difference, with the same grain bills. I brew an ESB with the same grain bill many times and have used different yeasts at the same ambient temp. I've noticed a 8 degree temp difference in Notty while a 4 degree temp difference in WLP037. So even if I did do 250 batches of this exact same grain bill, same ambient temp, and same pitch rate, then and only then could I reasonably predict this increase in fermentation temp based on yeast strain. There are just too many variables. If you are only seeing 4 degree shifts, you haven't altered these variables enough.

Also regarding no sparge, here is a good thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/i-love-no-sparge-brewing-140972/

 

[Walker]

I'd like to disagree with that.

Let's be honest, those experienced brewers who pay attention to their temps would be able to tell you right off the bat how much their wort temp increases in general. If you are making a 5% session, then you should know how likely it is that the wort will be increasing.

And any experienced brewer will tell that no rule is ever "always right". I don't have some multi-billion dollar brewery with the precision control that someone like Miller Brewing Co has. I can't count yeast cells, I can't tell you how much fermentable vs non fermentable sugar is in my wort, I can't control temps or water chemistry with hardcore accuracy, and I can't tell mother nature what she should do no matter how much math I throw at her.

I can brew the same recipe on the same equipment using ingredients from the same bulk supply and the same water, etc, etc, on 10 consecutive days and have the mash, fermentation, and finished product be different on every single batch.

So, no matter how much experience the average experienced homebrewer has, he cannot say with 100% certainty that his beer will absolutely warm up "X" degrees during high krausen. If he tells you something like, he is full of BS or has a very sophisticated brewery and laboratory.

 

[carnevoodoo]

I'd like to disagree with that.

Let's be honest, those experienced brewers who pay attention to their temps would be able to tell you right off the bat how much their wort temp increases in general. If you are making a 5% session, then you should know how likely it is that the wort will be increasing.

Instead, people were grasping at the 'exceptions' and saying it could be anything in some 'wide range'. And the temps were 'up in the air'. Like a lottery or shaking an 8-ball.

Two things. One, even the same yeast on the exact same wort will not act the same way twice. I've split a 10 gallon batch and used S-05 in two separate carboys, and one took off 6 hours sooner. It was a more aggressive fermentation, and it made little sense, unless you accept the fact that yeast are living organisms and do not act exactly the same every single time.

And two, I never want to see what kind of temperature swings most of my batches are capable of. I have temperature controls for a reason. My controller is set for a 1 degree differential, and I see MAYBE 2 degree shifts at the most, so this is really not an issue that ever worries me. THIS experienced brewer makes sure he doesn't get temperature swings. That's kind of the point of the experience I have. When I'd let it get warm, the beer would suffer.

That said, when I DO want higher temps (Belgian beer and all), I will let the yeast take over, and I'm used to seeing 5 degree differentials on normal beers. Bigger beers can go totally nuts. I also intentionally move the carboy to warmer places to get more attenuation, so there's no hard and fast rule to this either.

 

[jmo88]

And any experienced brewer will tell that no rule is ever "always right". I don't have some multi-billion dollar brewery with the precision control that someone like Miller Brewing Co has. I can't count yeast cells. I can't control anything with hardcore accuracy, and I can't tell mother nature what she should do no matter how much math I throw at her.

I can brew the same recipe on the same equipment using ingredients from the same bulk supply and the same water, etc, etc, on 10 consecutive days and have the mash, fermentation, and finished product be different on every single batch.

So, no matter how much experience the average experienced homebrewer has, he cannot say with 100% certainty that his beer will absolutely warm up "X" degrees during high krausen. If he tells you something like, he is full of BS or has a very sophisticated brewery and laboratory.

Exactly. Cookie, If you are listening to those podcasts, listen to Can You Brew It. WHen the brewers are interviewed, they always say things like "We shoot for this OG" "We hope to finish it out at ...." etc.

 

[Walker]

I'm done here. Blocking now.

There are enough *********s in the world... I don't need to see one on a forum where I come to exchange information and chat with otherwise friendly people.

 

[bob1852]

And any experienced brewer will tell that no rule is ever "always right". I don't have some multi-billion dollar brewery with the precision control that someone like Miller Brewing Co has. I can't count yeast cells, I can't tell you how much fermentable vs non fermentable sugar is in my wort, I can't control temps or water chemistry with hardcore accuracy, and I can't tell mother nature what she should do no matter how much math I throw at her.

I can brew the same recipe on the same equipment using ingredients from the same bulk supply and the same water, etc, etc, on 10 consecutive days and have the mash, fermentation, and finished product be different on every single batch.

So, no matter how much experience the average experienced homebrewer has, he cannot say with 100% certainty that his beer will absolutely warm up "X" degrees during high krausen. If he tells you something like, he is full of BS or has a very sophisticated brewery and laboratory.

Two things. One, even the same yeast on the exact same wort will not act the same way twice. I've split a 10 gallon batch and used S-05 in two separate carboys, and one took off 6 hours sooner. It was a more aggressive fermentation, and it made little sense, unless you accept the fact that yeast are living organisms and do not act exactly the same every single time.

And two, I never want to see what kind of temperature swings most of my batches are capable of. I have temperature controls for a reason. My controller is set for a 1 degree differential, and I see MAYBE 2 degree shifts at the most, so this is really not an issue that ever worries me. THIS experienced brewer makes sure he doesn't get temperature swings. That's kind of the point of the experience I have. When I'd let it get warm, the beer would suffer.

That said, when I DO want higher temps (Belgian beer and all), I will let the yeast take over, and I'm used to seeing 5 degree differentials on normal beers. Bigger beers can go totally nuts. I also intentionally move the carboy to warmer places to get more attenuation, so there's no hard and fast rule to this either.

Exactly. Cookie, If you are listening to those podcasts, listen to Can You Brew It. WHen the brewers are interviewed, they always say things like "We shoot for this OG" "We hope to finish it out at ...." etc.

this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

in homebrewing conditions, every fermentation is different, even in temp controlled environments. (I'm sure Jamil agrees )

 

[Walker]

Ahhhhhh..... this place is much more pleasant now...

 

[Yooper]

I'm done here. Blocking now.

There are enough *********s in the world... I don't need to see one on a forum where I come to exchange information and chat with otherwise friendly people.

Wow- it took you longer than I thought it would. I think I like the "kindler, gentler" Walker!

This guy has continually tried to bait me and insult me, saying since I've brewed "over 250 batches" that I should be able to tell him how much HIS batches will vary in temperature. A general "3-10 degrees, depending on the intensity of the fermentation" and a specific "my room is at 57 and the beer is at 63" isn't good enough for this expert.

I've said that I have a huge house, with a choice of many ambient temps, as well as 4 fridges, so I don't have to stress about it. As another poster said, I hope to hell I never find out how much my temps CAN vary, because the goal is for them to be stable.

I allowed the troll to drag me into this, and that's my own fault. Anybody with any sense shouldn't rise to the bait.

The good news is that there is a TON of great info in this thread, and it can open many people's eyes to temperature control and how to achieve it, from fancy to ghetto set ups.

 

[jmo88]

I've had my other signature for a year and a half. Time for a change...

 

[bctdi]

I'd like to disagree with that.

Let's be honest, those experienced brewers who pay attention to their temps would be able to tell you right off the bat how much their wort temp increases in general. If you are making a 5% session, then you should know how likely it is that the wort will be increasing.

Instead, people were grasping at the 'exceptions' and saying it could be anything in some 'wide range'. And the temps were 'up in the air'. Like a lottery or shaking an 8-ball.

That is simply misleading and not good info that anyone can benefit from.

If you have brewed 250 batches, then you should know the answer easily to this question if you pay attention to your temps. If you don't know the answer to this than I don't know what to say.

From what I've gathered, my 5% session beer will be 3-5 degrees above ambient. I'm going to factor for 4 degrees to keep it in the middle. When the temp drops, I'll start to raise the temp day by day by 1 degree. Keep the temps stable (according to Jamil).



The problem with this, is that there is a 12 hour lag (i think Palmer said this) or so from the air change to the wort change. You actually want to stay 1 step ahead of where you know the temp will go next. So if your wort goes to 66, your temp gauge will get flagged to cool down by 1 degree. By this time it's too late because the temp has increased.

I thought people would be in touch with their ferment temps through out the ferment cycle. I guess not that many pay attention to it. Jamil promotes a stable temp throughout the whole process. The later in the ferment, the more the temp can increase he says without any ill effects. I think he said it's the beginning few days that determine what will happen later on.


That's all I've been listening to all day.

Last night I heard Palmer say to stop sparging. He said that the lower efficiency, the better the wort and better the beer. He said to ADD hot water to the boil kettle to bring it to pre-boil volume and not to sparge.

I'm now fascinated with this no sparge method if it will produce this great wort that he mentions.

If you don't believe me, goto http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/553
141 min and here him talk about 'stop sparging'. He's saying to get 14lbs of malt. Wow! You should listen the man himself talk about this!

you know there are just some folks out there who will just never get it....happy brewing