Ferment temps - facts vs. myths please..

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Subscribed! :ban:

and for what it's worth - the dark area I use to stash my fermenting projects sits at 62 to 64 degrees year round. Temps inside the beer are usually 64-67 whenever I have checked them. Just my .02 ... although our Vanilla Porter has won a few......
 
remilard said:
I love this guy. He starts out saying Jamil says to ferment your beers at room temp, now he is saying that Jamil says don't make a starter and don't oxygenate your beer unless you know a dentist.

Great stuff.
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I'm beginning to think you were right earlier, pure-genius-trollage. I'm calling it the "jewel amongst the pebbles" technique.
 
Jamil also says to aerate your sugar decoction BEFORE you honey sparge. Also, he says to bottle in Dixie cups and dry hop with fertilizer...at least I think. [HBT is in desperate need for a sarcasm font]
-Jefe-
 
The gospel of Jamil 1.046

And Jamil rose up and spoke unto the assembled masses, “Oxiginate not your tasty wort brothers, for it will bring forth the serpent of infection, there will be no rejoicing and your beer will be cast to the dark drain of the Sink”…


Zymurgists 1.014

.. and Jamil cast aside the naysayer and proclaimed “Thou must cast no less then 200 billion cells of yeast, no more for those that do not head my warnings will have their Wort smite down with esters and banana flavors caused by the heat of damnation. Use not new yeast, reuse your yeast and bask in its third generational glory, for the yeast merchants seek only to line their pockets with gold. ”


Jamil 1.067

.. and Jamil cried “Heed not the words of the Homebrewtalk, for they are false prophets and seek to lead you astray with brewing lore passed down for thousands of years and pray only to the damned gods of experience and knowledge, pray they be cast aside”.


Lol.

I dig Jamil and his shows, he has loads of experience, but I disagree with as much of what he says then I agree with. Some of his methods just simply do not fit my brewing style or equipment. Some of his ideas have improved my brewing. Oh yeah that is something else Jamil says throughout his shows, to brew with your methods and equipment.

I most certainly do not take what he says as gospel.

What the OP refuses to understand is that unless you are brewing the exact same recipes on the same equipment using the same methods, things will be different from one brewer to the next. There may be a 5 degree difference between ambient and the wort, there may not be depending on the cooling methods (if any) used. Environmental conditions, brands and freshness of yeast and grains, water, etc can all reek havoc on a brew.
He is just digging for someone to pat him on the head and tell him he is right and everything will be ok.

This thread in general has been a great read.
 
Whiskey said:
The gospel of Jamil 1.046

And Jamil rose up and spoke unto the assembled masses, “Oxiginate not your tasty wort brothers, for it will bring forth the serpent of infection, there will be no rejoicing and your beer will be cast to the dark drain of the Sink”…


Zymurgists 1.014

.. and Jamil cast aside the naysayer and proclaimed “Thou must cast no less then 200 billion cells of yeast, no more for those that do not head my warnings will have their Wort smite down with esters and banana flavors caused by the heat of damnation. Use not new yeast, reuse your yeast and bask in its third generational glory, for the yeast merchants seek only to line their pockets with gold. ”


Jamil 1.067

.. and Jamil cried “Heed not the words of the Homebrewtalk, for they are false prophets and seek to lead you astray with brewing lore passed down for thousands of years and pray only to the damned gods of experience and knowledge, pray they be cast aside”.
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Absolutely freakin' classic!!!!!:rockin:
 
Lucky for us, The Council of Ninkasi deemed The Gospel of Cookie Monster unfit and left it on the cutting room floor. Turns out, it was just an extremely inaccurate and poor translation of the Gospel of Jamil.
 
PHBalanced said:
Subscribed! :ban:

and for what it's worth - the dark area I use to stash my fermenting projects sits at 62 to 64 degrees year round. Temps inside the beer are usually 64-67 whenever I have checked them. Just my .02 ... although our Vanilla Porter has won a few......
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Thanks for being the 3rd person to contribute to temps.

Seems the 3ish degree mark to be holding true.

I'm going to Home Depot now to look for the oxygen.

I also need to find gelatin finings. I wonder if there's a place I can get that instead of a brew store..
 
TheCookieMonster said:
If you want a safe, quality, fast acting liquid yeast with no starter needed, you need TWO packs of fresh WyYeast for 5 gallons. The benefit is not having to add a 1/2 gallon of starter to your ferment. There's big benefits to using 2 packs of WyYeast as compared to any other way of using yeast and it's something that maybe people should explore their next batch.

I use starters and never pitch the whole thing, Cool and decant and pitch the slurry . You can use two packets but with a starter I get the same if not more viable yeast and I use wort from prior brew sessions that is stored in sanitized quart mason jars in the fridge no DME
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TheCookieMonster said:
The oxygen needs to be fed through a tank via medical equipment. It's hard to get. Jamil uses this because heh said he has friends that are dentists. It's also possible ot over oxygenate using this method.

wait what ? Any one can purchase oxygen and the required equipment . I use O2 from a welding tank.

If you feed in air to your wort, then that's fine, but it has to pass through a hepa filter or your just putting bugs into your wort. Dont oxygenation too much or it can lend to staling of the final product (according to Palmer).

No it does no need to pass through a filter its nice to use one on the off chance some rust or scale comes from the tank

Many people infect their vunerable wort by trying to oxygenate.
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Never heard of anyone getting an infection from oxygenation.
 
TheCookieMonster said:
I also need to find gelatin finings. I wonder if there's a place I can get that instead of a brew store..
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The grocery store. Use the unflavored, 1 envelope per batch...

51t84QplroL._SS500_.jpg
 
TheCookieMonster said:
Thanks for being the 3rd person to contribute to temps.

Seems the 3ish degree mark to be holding true.
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I hate to keep talking here, but....

how do you figure the "3 degree" thing holds true and that 3 people contributed to this info? Someone showed a temp difference of 10*, I (earlier in this thread) stated my temp differences are closer to 6*.
 
I can't say anything about ambient temp vs wort temp I use swamp coolers and found less than 1° shift in wort temp vs the water in the cooler because the water is more efficient at removing heat than air. I use a k probe digital thermo for both readings
 
Walker said:
I hate to keep talking here, but....

how do you figure the "3 degree" thing holds true and that 3 people contributed to this info? Someone showed a temp difference of 10*, I (earlier in this thread) stated my temp differences are closer to 6*.
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there are way too many variables to set a specific degree of difference. Factors such as the actual ambient temp, yeast used, fermentation, how much yeast is used are some factors.

I current have one going where the ambient is 59 and the wort/beer temp is 66 with a 1.070 beer and US-05.
 
I wouldn't have told him where to get Gelatin, for the same reason I won't tell him where to get cheap Oxygen, Co2, and other gasses in Toronto.
 
That's this guy's problem, he wants definitive answers to questions that don't have them. Every situation is different because there are a million different variables.

My prediction for his next thread: "Blow off tubes - Fact vs. Myth" in which he'll explain that because he didn't need one on his first batch, he will never need one. Then continue to argue the point even after many people have posted pictures of their blow offs.
 
I hear, ya....

I'm pointing out that Cookie is cherry picking data to support his position.

I think you can easily see a wide range of temp differences depending on a lot of things.
 
And Yooper explained the 'snowball effect' of ferment temps pretty well earlier itt. Let it warm up a bit, it ferments more vigorously creating even more heat, etc.
 
BrookdaleBrew said:
My prediction for his next thread: "Blow off tubes - Fact vs. Myth" in which he'll explain that because he didn't need one on his first batch, he will never need one. Then continue to argue the point even after many people have posted pictures of their blow offs.
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Speaking of blowoff tubes - I racked 4 gal of American Wheat into my 4.7 gal fermenter Sunday, knowing it was gonna blow. Came home last night to 4 cats absolutely captivated with the fermenter blowing massive bubbles in Starsan.
 
jkarp said:
Speaking of blowoff tubes - I racked 4 gal of American Wheat into my 4.7 gal fermenter Sunday, knowing it was gonna blow. Came home last night to 4 cats absolutely captivated with the fermenter blowing massive bubbles in Starsan.
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My cat loves watching my airlock bubble as well. She also really seems to like the smell of fermenting beer.
 
Whiskey - classic post!

Cookie monster, the problem with knowing all of this stuff is you actually have to brew, and brew a lot. Knowing and actualizing are two very different things. That said, don't throw your batches away when the fermentations get out of your control, don't throw the batches away when you don't hit your strike or steep temperatures, don't throw the batches away when you get a bee or other various bugs landing in your boil, and don't throw the batches away when you think you have an infection because you are sure you didn't clean something properly... oh and don't use the wrong cleaner, it may screw up the flavor of your winning brew.

One more thing about Wyeast. They clearly recommend the proper amount of yeast for your batches depending upon the starting gravity of the batch. They don't recommend 2 packs of activator unless you are over 1.060 ... Activator costs over 5 bucks typically and there are not too many people who would rather spend 10 bucks than make a starter. You mentioned or at least intimated the possibility of ruining your batch by 'throwing in 1/2 gallon of starter'. Dude, you make a 2L starter, the yeast eat the DME and multiply. You let the starter settle, decant the 1/2 gallon of liquid and use the newly made multiplied yeast for your batch. You don't increase the volume of your batch but by the 1/2" of yeast on the bottom of your flask and you definitly have more than 2 activator packs. Many of us harvest yeast and make slats, we can grow up the slat with a starter in a few days and we are off to the races.

Also, yeast need O2 in their cell division stages. You can definitely over oxygenate but most of us follow directions and use an airstone and oxygenate for 1 minute. My fermentations are vigorous and w/in 3 hours of when I pitch my starter. Start at a low temperature and if the recipe calls for a very low diacetyl you may need to raise the temperature in the last 3rd of fermentation to make sure fermentation completes (Jamil recommended this for his light stout recipe because 1084 might need some help to complete and he says the temp should be raised from 68 to 70 in the last 3rd of fermentation) Again, it is case by case, yeast by yeast and wort by wort monster dude... There is no absolute here. Sure we could say, ferment this wort at this temp with this yeast but until you actually have a beer to talk about it is silly to even get specific. That said you have enough general knowledge to be dangerous as you are proving. Go brew and learn, see if you even like brewing... it may frustrate the heck out of you.
 
Netflyer said:
I just used it on my aberdeen session haus ale and it worked perfecto, looks like a clear, golden lager in the glass. Hey, I have heard though that gelatin is not for all types of beer... not sure why but I'm sure someone will tell me :cross:
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Jamil will
 
After this thread, I'm starting to wonder if the "J" in WWJD means something other than what I thought it did.

I will say, though, that I do enjoy all of the stuff that Jamil puts out there, it's certainly helped me a lot, too. But for every 1 thing he is able to put out there, as one person, I find 50 more good things here from 50 more people!
 
Since I've yet to be a supposedly worthy contributor, here are my observations regarding fermentation temperature. I see fermentation temperatures roughly 5 degrees warmer than ambient when pitching ales. I try to pitch most ale yeast between 60 and 65 degrees F. For several years, I kept my fermenter in a chamber that was 60 degrees F +/- 1 degree. The wort/beer temperature usually rose to 65 +/- 1 degree for the first 1-3 days of fermentation. I always make a starter when using liquid yeast, but I most frequently use rehydrated US-05, S-04, or Nottingham. If I choose to ferment outside the controlled environment, it's usually a small batch that winds up inside the house. In that case, my fermentation is in the mid 70's. I definitely notice a stronger (sometimes too strong) ester profile in those batches.
 
Oh right, thanks Yuri for getting me on point too. I've seen almost 10 degree differences in ambient vs. beer temp. I definitely noticed that fast working, aggressive strains like Belgians and S-04 produce more heat than say US-05.

:off:

Hey Yuri, what's in your avatar? It almost looks like an Atmel ATMEGA8 on that board. I use a lot of those at work, one actually handles my fermentation temperature control.
 
It's an Arduino microcontroller prototyping board. They've gotten very popular with the amateur electronics crowd due to the simple USB interface and C++ based IDE. The processor is usually an ATmega 168 or 328. I have several and have used them in various projects. Presently, there's one in my brewery that monitors and/or controls all sorts of parameters.
 
If anything this thread shows the wide range of different temps that can be generated by the yeast during fermentation....seems anywhere from 3 to 10 degrees depending on the gravity / yeast strain / pitching rate. This basically drives home the point that the easiest thing to do is control the temp of fermentation based on actual wort temp and not ambient temp...if the temp probe is taped to the carboy or in the wort itself and and attached to a temp controller who cares what the differential is between wort temp and ambient?The controller will maintain whatever temp it is set at based on the temp of the wort itself no matter how much heat the yeast generate which is pretty much what most of the original replies to the OP were saying. Of course not everyone has a temp controller so they will need to make an estimate based on all the variables involved as to what ambient temp to put the fermentor in which allows for fermentation heat generation but still keeps the temp within the proper range for that particular yeast strain.Most of the original replies to the OP also drove this point home by recommending a temp at the lower range for a particular yeast strain thereby keeping within the proper temp range even during the heat generation of fermentation.So contrary to what the cookiemonster says about folks not giving him an answer....I don`t see how the replies could have been more forthcoming...if things were still fuzzy to the OP I would suggest reading "how to brew" by John Palmer....sometimes it helps to have a basic understanding of the brewing / fermenting process.:mug:
 
Gilbey said:
Can you tell me what kind of thermometers those are? Are they submersible?
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I got them as a close-out on line (Jasco Products Company), but they're no longer listed on the site. They'er not submersible, but I picked up
1
these on ebay and they are. Haven't tried one in the fermenter yet.
 
bctdi said:
If anything this thread shows the wide range of different temps that can be generated by the yeast during fermentation....seems anywhere from 3 to 10 degrees depending on the gravity / yeast strain / pitching rate.
Click to expand...

I'd like to disagree with that.

Let's be honest, those experienced brewers who pay attention to their temps would be able to tell you right off the bat how much their wort temp increases in general. If you are making a 5% session, then you should know how likely it is that the wort will be increasing.

Instead, people were grasping at the 'exceptions' and saying it could be anything in some 'wide range'. And the temps were 'up in the air'. Like a lottery or shaking an 8-ball.

That is simply misleading and not good info that anyone can benefit from.

If you have brewed 250 batches, then you should know the answer easily to this question if you pay attention to your temps. If you don't know the answer to this than I don't know what to say.

From what I've gathered, my 5% session beer will be 3-5 degrees above ambient. I'm going to factor for 4 degrees to keep it in the middle. When the temp drops, I'll start to raise the temp day by day by 1 degree. Keep the temps stable (according to Jamil).

This basically drives home the point that the easiest thing to do is control the temp of fermentation based on actual wort temp and not ambient temp...
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The problem with this, is that there is a 12 hour lag (i think Palmer said this) or so from the air change to the wort change. You actually want to stay 1 step ahead of where you know the temp will go next. So if your wort goes to 66, your temp gauge will get flagged to cool down by 1 degree. By this time it's too late because the temp has increased.

I thought people would be in touch with their ferment temps through out the ferment cycle. I guess not that many pay attention to it. Jamil promotes a stable temp throughout the whole process. The later in the ferment, the more the temp can increase he says without any ill effects. I think he said it's the beginning few days that determine what will happen later on.

if things were still fuzzy to the OP I would suggest reading "how to brew" by John Palmer....sometimes it helps to have a basic understanding of the brewing / fermenting process.:mug:
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That's all I've been listening to all day.

Last night I heard Palmer say to stop sparging. He said that the lower efficiency, the better the wort and better the beer. He said to ADD hot water to the boil kettle to bring it to pre-boil volume and not to sparge.

I'm now fascinated with this no sparge method if it will produce this great wort that he mentions.

If you don't believe me, goto http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/553
141 min and here him talk about 'stop sparging'. He's saying to get 14lbs of malt. Wow! You should listen the man himself talk about this!
 
AnOldUR said:
I got them as a close-out on line (Jasco Products Company), but they're no longer listed on the site. They'er not submersible, but I picked up
1
these on ebay and they are. Haven't tried one in the fermenter yet.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I just order 6 to try them out. Hopefully they are relatively accurate. Even if they only last a few batches at $.99 each its not a big deal.

Oh, and as a RANK AMATURE brewer this thread has shed a lot of light on fermentation temps. I always made an effort to keep my ambient temps within the range of the yeast recommendations, but other than that I didn't really think about it. Now I AM thinking about it, and I hope it helps me make better beer. Thank you for helping me learn.

I live in NJ and we have a pretty wide temperature range through the seasons. In the summer it can be up to 100F (extreme) and in the winter it can get down to 0F (extreme). Like another memeber said I have several locations in my house (garage, laundry, pantry, basement, etc)where I know the ambient temps through the seasons, so I adjust my fermenter locations accordingly as best I can. I have an extra fridge that I can use for a lager now and again, but it also has to store the extra food my family uses (like milk), so I can't go raising it up to 60F :eek: . I guess I need some more equipment ;) .

Alan
 

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