Ferment temps - facts vs. myths please..

[jmo88]

Cookie, some of what you just said in your last post I agree with. Although, yeast strain makes a difference for me, in terms of temp difference, with the same grain bills. I brew an ESB with the same grain bill many times and have used different yeasts at the same ambient temp. I've noticed a 8 degree temp difference in Notty while a 4 degree temp difference in WLP037. So even if I did do 250 batches of this exact same grain bill, same ambient temp, and same pitch rate, then and only then could I reasonably predict this increase in fermentation temp based on yeast strain. There are just too many variables. If you are only seeing 4 degree shifts, you haven't altered these variables enough.

Also regarding no sparge, here is a good thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/i-love-no-sparge-brewing-140972/

 

[Walker]

I'd like to disagree with that.

Let's be honest, those experienced brewers who pay attention to their temps would be able to tell you right off the bat how much their wort temp increases in general. If you are making a 5% session, then you should know how likely it is that the wort will be increasing.

And any experienced brewer will tell that no rule is ever "always right". I don't have some multi-billion dollar brewery with the precision control that someone like Miller Brewing Co has. I can't count yeast cells, I can't tell you how much fermentable vs non fermentable sugar is in my wort, I can't control temps or water chemistry with hardcore accuracy, and I can't tell mother nature what she should do no matter how much math I throw at her.

I can brew the same recipe on the same equipment using ingredients from the same bulk supply and the same water, etc, etc, on 10 consecutive days and have the mash, fermentation, and finished product be different on every single batch.

So, no matter how much experience the average experienced homebrewer has, he cannot say with 100% certainty that his beer will absolutely warm up "X" degrees during high krausen. If he tells you something like, he is full of BS or has a very sophisticated brewery and laboratory.

 

[carnevoodoo]

I'd like to disagree with that.

Let's be honest, those experienced brewers who pay attention to their temps would be able to tell you right off the bat how much their wort temp increases in general. If you are making a 5% session, then you should know how likely it is that the wort will be increasing.

Instead, people were grasping at the 'exceptions' and saying it could be anything in some 'wide range'. And the temps were 'up in the air'. Like a lottery or shaking an 8-ball.

Two things. One, even the same yeast on the exact same wort will not act the same way twice. I've split a 10 gallon batch and used S-05 in two separate carboys, and one took off 6 hours sooner. It was a more aggressive fermentation, and it made little sense, unless you accept the fact that yeast are living organisms and do not act exactly the same every single time.

And two, I never want to see what kind of temperature swings most of my batches are capable of. I have temperature controls for a reason. My controller is set for a 1 degree differential, and I see MAYBE 2 degree shifts at the most, so this is really not an issue that ever worries me. THIS experienced brewer makes sure he doesn't get temperature swings. That's kind of the point of the experience I have. When I'd let it get warm, the beer would suffer.

That said, when I DO want higher temps (Belgian beer and all), I will let the yeast take over, and I'm used to seeing 5 degree differentials on normal beers. Bigger beers can go totally nuts. I also intentionally move the carboy to warmer places to get more attenuation, so there's no hard and fast rule to this either.

 

[jmo88]

And any experienced brewer will tell that no rule is ever "always right". I don't have some multi-billion dollar brewery with the precision control that someone like Miller Brewing Co has. I can't count yeast cells. I can't control anything with hardcore accuracy, and I can't tell mother nature what she should do no matter how much math I throw at her.

I can brew the same recipe on the same equipment using ingredients from the same bulk supply and the same water, etc, etc, on 10 consecutive days and have the mash, fermentation, and finished product be different on every single batch.

So, no matter how much experience the average experienced homebrewer has, he cannot say with 100% certainty that his beer will absolutely warm up "X" degrees during high krausen. If he tells you something like, he is full of BS or has a very sophisticated brewery and laboratory.

Exactly. Cookie, If you are listening to those podcasts, listen to Can You Brew It. WHen the brewers are interviewed, they always say things like "We shoot for this OG" "We hope to finish it out at ...." etc.

 

[Walker]

I'm done here. Blocking now.

There are enough *****ebags in the world... I don't need to see one on a forum where I come to exchange information and chat with otherwise friendly people.

 

[bob1852]

And any experienced brewer will tell that no rule is ever "always right". I don't have some multi-billion dollar brewery with the precision control that someone like Miller Brewing Co has. I can't count yeast cells, I can't tell you how much fermentable vs non fermentable sugar is in my wort, I can't control temps or water chemistry with hardcore accuracy, and I can't tell mother nature what she should do no matter how much math I throw at her.

I can brew the same recipe on the same equipment using ingredients from the same bulk supply and the same water, etc, etc, on 10 consecutive days and have the mash, fermentation, and finished product be different on every single batch.

So, no matter how much experience the average experienced homebrewer has, he cannot say with 100% certainty that his beer will absolutely warm up "X" degrees during high krausen. If he tells you something like, he is full of BS or has a very sophisticated brewery and laboratory.

Two things. One, even the same yeast on the exact same wort will not act the same way twice. I've split a 10 gallon batch and used S-05 in two separate carboys, and one took off 6 hours sooner. It was a more aggressive fermentation, and it made little sense, unless you accept the fact that yeast are living organisms and do not act exactly the same every single time.

And two, I never want to see what kind of temperature swings most of my batches are capable of. I have temperature controls for a reason. My controller is set for a 1 degree differential, and I see MAYBE 2 degree shifts at the most, so this is really not an issue that ever worries me. THIS experienced brewer makes sure he doesn't get temperature swings. That's kind of the point of the experience I have. When I'd let it get warm, the beer would suffer.

That said, when I DO want higher temps (Belgian beer and all), I will let the yeast take over, and I'm used to seeing 5 degree differentials on normal beers. Bigger beers can go totally nuts. I also intentionally move the carboy to warmer places to get more attenuation, so there's no hard and fast rule to this either.

Exactly. Cookie, If you are listening to those podcasts, listen to Can You Brew It. WHen the brewers are interviewed, they always say things like "We shoot for this OG" "We hope to finish it out at ...." etc.

this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

in homebrewing conditions, every fermentation is different, even in temp controlled environments. (I'm sure Jamil agrees )

 

[Walker]

Ahhhhhh..... this place is much more pleasant now...

 

[Yooper]

I'm done here. Blocking now.

There are enough *****ebags in the world... I don't need to see one on a forum where I come to exchange information and chat with otherwise friendly people.

Wow- it took you longer than I thought it would. I think I like the "kindler, gentler" Walker!

This guy has continually tried to bait me and insult me, saying since I've brewed "over 250 batches" that I should be able to tell him how much HIS batches will vary in temperature. A general "3-10 degrees, depending on the intensity of the fermentation" and a specific "my room is at 57 and the beer is at 63" isn't good enough for this expert.

I've said that I have a huge house, with a choice of many ambient temps, as well as 4 fridges, so I don't have to stress about it. As another poster said, I hope to hell I never find out how much my temps CAN vary, because the goal is for them to be stable.

I allowed the troll to drag me into this, and that's my own fault. Anybody with any sense shouldn't rise to the bait.

The good news is that there is a TON of great info in this thread, and it can open many people's eyes to temperature control and how to achieve it, from fancy to ghetto set ups.

 

[jmo88]

I've had my other signature for a year and a half. Time for a change...

 

[bctdi]

I'd like to disagree with that.

Let's be honest, those experienced brewers who pay attention to their temps would be able to tell you right off the bat how much their wort temp increases in general. If you are making a 5% session, then you should know how likely it is that the wort will be increasing.

Instead, people were grasping at the 'exceptions' and saying it could be anything in some 'wide range'. And the temps were 'up in the air'. Like a lottery or shaking an 8-ball.

That is simply misleading and not good info that anyone can benefit from.

If you have brewed 250 batches, then you should know the answer easily to this question if you pay attention to your temps. If you don't know the answer to this than I don't know what to say.

From what I've gathered, my 5% session beer will be 3-5 degrees above ambient. I'm going to factor for 4 degrees to keep it in the middle. When the temp drops, I'll start to raise the temp day by day by 1 degree. Keep the temps stable (according to Jamil).



The problem with this, is that there is a 12 hour lag (i think Palmer said this) or so from the air change to the wort change. You actually want to stay 1 step ahead of where you know the temp will go next. So if your wort goes to 66, your temp gauge will get flagged to cool down by 1 degree. By this time it's too late because the temp has increased.

I thought people would be in touch with their ferment temps through out the ferment cycle. I guess not that many pay attention to it. Jamil promotes a stable temp throughout the whole process. The later in the ferment, the more the temp can increase he says without any ill effects. I think he said it's the beginning few days that determine what will happen later on.


That's all I've been listening to all day.

Last night I heard Palmer say to stop sparging. He said that the lower efficiency, the better the wort and better the beer. He said to ADD hot water to the boil kettle to bring it to pre-boil volume and not to sparge.

I'm now fascinated with this no sparge method if it will produce this great wort that he mentions.

If you don't believe me, goto http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/553
141 min and here him talk about 'stop sparging'. He's saying to get 14lbs of malt. Wow! You should listen the man himself talk about this!

you know there are just some folks out there who will just never get it....happy brewing

 

[Walker]

"kindler, gentler" Walker

You insinuating that I'm a mean hard-ass or something?!

Watch it, b*tch! I'll backhand you faster than you can imagine!




j/k

 

[annasdadhockey]

Has this clown shoe ever brewed a batch of beer, or is he just an expert gum flapper? I better ask Jamil.

 

[annasdadhockey]

you insinuating that i'm a mean hard-ass or something?!

Watch it, b*tch! I'll backhand you faster than you can imagine!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[remilard]

I'd like to disagree with that.

Let's be honest, those experienced brewers who pay attention to their temps would be able to tell you right off the bat how much their wort temp increases in general. If you are making a 5% session, then you should know how likely it is that the wort will be increasing.

I am an experienced brewer who practices temperature control, not temperature measurement. My wort temp is whatever I set the digital controller to. It is 68 every time I use 1056/001. Bam, right off the bat.

 

[Yooper]

You insinuating that I'm a mean hard-ass or something?!

Watch it, b*tch! I'll backhand you faster than you can imagine!




j/k

Ooooh, I like it when you talk to me like that! :rockin:

I'll just have to kick your scrawny little engineer ass after I'm done with you.

 

[Walker]

Damn! I just discovered that you can't put a Mod on your ignore list.

 

[Yooper]

Damn! I just discovered that you can't put a Mod on your ignore list.

I'm sorry- did you say something?

 

[smizak]

If you have brewed 250 batches, then you should know the answer easily to this question if you pay attention to your temps. If you don't know the answer to this than I don't know what to say.

From what I've gathered, my 5% session beer will be 3-5 degrees above ambient. I'm going to factor for 4 degrees to keep it in the middle. When the temp drops, I'll start to raise the temp day by day by 1 degree. Keep the temps stable (according to Jamil).

Dude. Any good, experienced brewer shouldn't have any clue what the wort temp rises to, BECAUSE YOU SHOULD BE CONTROLLING THE TEMPERATURE!

That being said, my temp control failed while brewing my 5% oatmeal stout with S-04 and it rose up to 72F in a 63F basement. I brewed a 7% IPA with US-05 in a 68F basement without temp control and it went to 70F. Big difference, and very difficult to predict. I don't understand why you think it's useful to know how much heat each individual strain or wort composition will produce when you should be controlling the temperature anyway.

Last night I heard Palmer say to stop sparging. He said that the lower efficiency, the better the wort and better the beer. He said to ADD hot water to the boil kettle to bring it to pre-boil volume and not to sparge.

I'm now fascinated with this no sparge method if it will produce this great wort that he mentions.

If you don't believe me, goto http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/553
141 min and here him talk about 'stop sparging'. He's saying to get 14lbs of malt. Wow! You should listen the man himself talk about this!

Walk into any commercial brewery, say Sierra Nevada or Stone and tell them their wort is suffering because they sparge. I don't buy that at all.

 

[TheCookieMonster]

I am an experienced brewer who practices temperature control, not temperature measurement. My wort temp is whatever I set the digital controller to. It is 68 every time I use 1056/001. Bam, right off the bat.

Do you absolutely guarantee that if change my cooling setup around that my wort temp will be 66 no matter what as long as it's set to 66? From beginning to end, 10 days straight. No spikes at all.

Other peoples pics are not showing this that's why I am asking.

So what you are saying is that you don't know your temps because your temp controlling works so well (despite the 12 hour delay) that you always see the same temp?

Is that what you are suggesting? It really works this well?

 

[Whiskey]

Do you absolutely guarantee that if change my cooling setup around that my wort temp will be 66 no matter what as long as it's set to 66? From beginning to end, 10 days straight. No spikes at all.

Holy **** man, really? Have you not read a single reply in this thread?

Don't bother answering, be proud, you are the first name on my ignore/blocked list.

 

[SwampassJ]

Holy **** man, really? Have you not read a single reply in this thread?

Don't bother answering, be proud, you are the first name on my ignore/blocked list.

He is a ****ing troll. I think I broke that news bulletin on post 33.

 

[Beerrific]

Do you absolutely guarantee that if change my cooling setup around that my wort temp will be 66 no matter what as long as it's set to 66? From beginning to end, 10 days straight. No spikes at all.

Other peoples pics are not showing this that's why I am asking.

So what you are saying is that you don't know your temps because your temp controlling works so well (despite the 12 hour delay) that you always see the same temp?

Is that what you are suggesting? It really works this well?

Yes it works this well. Try it for yourself and the report back.

And this "12 hour delay," what are you talking about exactly? Are you saying that if the beer goes to 68 it will take 12 hours to get down to 66? Because it won't.

 

[cimirie]

Do you absolutely guarantee that if change my cooling setup around that my wort temp will be 66 no matter what as long as it's set to 66? From beginning to end, 10 days straight. No spikes at all.

Other peoples pics are not showing this that's why I am asking.

So what you are saying is that you don't know your temps because your temp controlling works so well (despite the 12 hour delay) that you always see the same temp?

Is that what you are suggesting? It really works this well?

No, he doesn't absolutely gaurantee anything. Nobody here is giving an absolute. Even your hero Jamil would be the first to say that none of his "commandments" work or can be applied in every situation. Somebody earlier mentioned you were seeking answers that didn't exist because you are asking questions that have no answers that are the sMe in every single instance. What you do have is about 12 people following this thread and giving their experience. Almost everybody is in agreement that temperature swings will vary widely based on pitching rate, ambient temp, OG... There is no single answer. This "brew lore" that you're rallying against is the closest thing to an answer that you will get.

And that 12 hour delay of temp swing is bull. It doesn't take 12 hours to change the temp of 5 gallons one degree. It's simple thermodynamics. The temp shift will be based on (without getting way too scientifically detailed) the amount and intensity of the cold. You could pretty much flash freeze 5 gallons using enough liquid nitrogen and you would never move 5 gallons 1 degree with an ice cube. To build a timeline of 12 hours on something like that is arbitrary at best. With all respect to Jamil, it just ain't true. At least not in enough cases for you to build your entire fermentation process on.

And the whole point of homebrewing you are totally and absolutely missing is that it is not 100% science. It is very much a blending of science AND art. You can't quantify everything you do and nothing is 100% repeatable. The object is to be as repeatable as possible as to not notice a difference in the final product. You gotta stop being so hell-bent on being told the "right" answers and find some out for yourself through experimentation. Do yourself a favor and stop listening to Jamil, stop reading Palmer, stop burning bridges at this great resource and mess around with things yourself.

Things to keep in mind...
-approximate pitching quantity is OK
-a minimal temp swing during fermentation is fine. Don't expect a constant 66 degrees for all 7 days. If it happens, great, but know that it won't happen as much as it does happen, regardless of how ahead of it you think you're staying.
-STOP BEING SUCH A SMART ASS. You don't have to agree with everybody. But being rude as a newbie is not good form. Vets being rude is bad enough, but at least they have respect from most members. You don't.
-remember to have FUN. If you micromanage every degree and every 1/2 oz, you will suck all of the fun out of this. RDWHAHB!

 

[Beerrific]

With all respect to Jamil, it just ain't true.

Ok, I am a fan of Jamil, his shows on The Brewing Network, his writings, and his overall contributions to the homebrewing community. So I feel I should stick up for him here....

Really nothing being said in this thread should reflect on him. His ideas (which are not that revolutionary) are based on proven techniques and highly grounded in good science. None of which are being reflected in this thread. He has been wildly misquoted here and a lot has been taken way out of context. (The same goes for Palmer.)

 

[pjj2ba]

Man, like I said many posts ago, people ASSofU&ME a lot. I guess my post wasn't clear - or was ignored for better trolling.

....... an exhaustive test was done on stick-on thermometers and they found a 0.5 degree difference between what the thermometer was reading on the outside, to the actual temps inside the middle of the wort where consistent to what the sticker showed on the outside.

My Stickers pretty much show room temperatures.. Maybe a bit above in the first day and night.

I believe Jamil recommends fermenting at 64-70. When the beer doesn't come out, the standard line always gets pulled out: "Well you know, the wort is 5-10 degrees above room temp! It's too high!"

Like I said before, both scenarios are possible, depending on where you ferment. Too many folks assume that, "this is what I see, so the same must be true for everyone else".

My Kolsch right now is going crazy (3 days old) and is only 2*F over ambient (60*F). My fermentor is in the basement and is exposed to LOTS of air movement. I have no doubts that if I simply put the carboy in a large cardboard box, closed the lid and put it in the exact same spot, the temp inside the fermenter would go up at least another 5*F.
If for some reason I wanted to ferment this Kolsch in a large cardboard box in my basement, then I would have to find a way to lower the ambient temp by 5*F to get the fermentor to its target temp. The ambient temp inside the box would then be below that recommended by the yeast manufacturer.

So I am supposed to believe that people are fermenting ale's at 55 degrees which is against what the directions on the yeast and best brewers have to say?

Can someone please separate for the me the facts vs. myth on this?

I just want to be able to know the facts on fermentation temps.

It is just a simple matter of learning YOUR system. Some of us have set-ups where we can set our fermentor up so the temperature is exactly where they want it, and have it be close to ambient temperature. This is probably the minority of homebrewers. The rest of the homebrewers have learned through trial and error with THEIR system, that they may have to have their ambient temperature 5-10*F LOWER than what they want their fermentor to be at inside. Then there are those who don't care, or are newbs, and they may well be fermenting 5-10*F over where it should be.

I ferments lots of ales at 60-62*F actual fermentation temp. Remember the yeast temp. guidelines are just that, guidelines, not rules. They are directed more towards a typical homebrewer and as such has to take into account that many brewers don't have fancy equipment to chill fermenting wort

 

[slowbie]

Do you absolutely guarantee that if change my cooling setup around that my wort temp will be 66 no matter what as long as it's set to 66? From beginning to end, 10 days straight. No spikes at all.

You shouldn't be so worried about the ambient temp. If you hook up your thermostat on your temp control system to a probe that is reading wort temp as described early on in this thread then you don't have to measure, know, or care about the ambient temp.

 

[cimirie]

Ok, I am a fan of Jamil, his shows on The Brewing Network, his writings, and his overall contributions to the homebrewing community. So I feel I should stick up for him here....

Really nothing being said in this thread should reflect on him. His ideas (which are not that revolutionary) are based on proven techniques and highly grounded in good science. None of which are being reflected in this thread. He has been wildly misquoted here and a lot has been taken way out of context. (The same goes for Palmer.)

Believe me, I know Jamil and Palmer and many others are being miquoted. Since I don't have enough familiarity with Jamil as apparently the op does, I can't bring to mind where he has spoken on this 12 hour rule. It would not suprise me at all if this was never uttered by Jamil. BUT if he has made that statement, I still stand by the shenannigans call. There is no science that supports that statement, regardless of whether it comes from Jamil or the cookiemonster (I never thought THAT sentence would come out With a straight face. . ). I know relatively little about this hobby when compared to many on this board. Most stuff, I wouldn't have enough knowledge or experience to argue. But after 2 full years of thermodynamics courses and endless labs in college en route to a chem eng degree, this one I do!

 

[remilard]

12 hour rule is, obviously, not true. It might be slower or faster depending on how you are cooling.

I have a thermometer on my boil kettle and generally place the wort in the fermentation freezer within 2-3 degrees of desired. Dropping that much takes me easily less than an hour (5 gallons in a small chest freezer), increasing that much might take 2 hours (heating pad).

Crashing from ale temps to 35, which should take 360 hours or more, takes about 5 hours max.

 

[benbradford]

Interesting thread...

Does anyone actually insert their electric thermometer probe into the wort? I saw a nice thread on waterproofing the probe, I am sure that it could be sanitized and inserted somehow...A little curious if there is a varience between the center of the carboy and the outside, even if insulated. I know that water is an good conductor, so not expecting much here.


An interesting thing about cookie that has been bothering me, is that I believe that on a couple of the original posts that he inferred that he was under the impression that a little insulation would raise the temperature (due to wearing a jacket...) rather than protect and maintain the temperature.

Sorry for resurrecting this thread but I read this post a month or so ago and this has been floating in my head...

 

[remilard]

If that's the thing that bothers you about cookie you should read more of his work.

The best practice for measuring the temperature of the center of fermentation would be a stainless thermowell through a rubber stopper or carboy hood. The probe goes in the thermowell. The thermowell is under $10.

 

[munche]

I see that this thread was necromanced, but here goes:

http://morebeer.com/view_product/6666//5_Gallon_Hood_Thermowell_also_3_and_6_gallon

+

http://morebeer.com/view_product/16666//Ranco_Digital_Temperature_Controller_-_Wired

=

Your temperature will be controlled no matter what your beer ferments at. No debate about if the wort is warmer or not. Problem solved.

Now that I've solved this thread, I'll go have a homebrew. It's what Jamil would do.

:rockin: