Feedback on first all grain recipe (Cascade Pale Ale)

[csantoni]

I did my first partial mash a couple weeks ago and it was a blast. So I went and got myself cooler HLT/MLT setup to try my first all grain recipe. I wanted to start with something simple so I figured I'd make a basic APA with Nugget for bittering and Cascade for flavor. I'm including the lactic acid as everything I've read says that pH is crucial in all grain. I don't have a water report or profile but I use filtered tap water and my extract/partial mash beers taste great.

Recipe: Cascade Pale Ale
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 12.25 qt
Post Boil Volume: 9.38 qt
Batch Size (fermenter): 9.00 qt
Bottling Volume: 8.00 qt
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 6.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 33.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
3.00 ml Lactic Acid (Mash) Water Agent 1 - -
5 lbs Pale Ale Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 100.0 % 1.56 qt
5 g Nugget [15.60 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 24.6 IBUs -
4 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 4 5.3 IBUs -
4 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 3.4 IBUs -
3 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 min, 18 Hop 6 0.5 IBUs -
3 g Cascade [5.50 %] - 3.0 Days Into Primary for 4.0 Hop 7 0.0 IBUs -

 

[IslandLizard]

3.00 ml Lactic Acid (Mash) Water Agent 1 - -

I would NOT add any acid unless you know your water minerals, especially alkalinity. 3 ml of 88% lactic acid in a 2.5 gallon batch is probably way too much! Unless you have hard water.

Call your water company, ask for quality control. They have those numbers for you. Also ask how stable those numbers are from season to season, and year to year.

Don't forget to treat all your brewing water with 1/4 crushed Campden tablet per 5 gallons, to remove chlorine or chloramines. You can use an equivalent pinch of K-Meta, instead.

 

[Knightshade]

Not judging, genuine question. Might it make sense to go with a proven recipe since you're looking at a Pale Ale w/Cascade?

https://sierranevada.com/blog/pale-ale-homebrew-recipe/

 

[csantoni]

I would NOT add any acid unless you know your water minerals, especially alkalinity. 3 ml of 88% lactic acid in a 2.5 gallon batch is probably way too much! Unless you have hard water.

Call your water company, ask for quality control. They have those numbers for you. Also ask how stable those numbers are from season to season, and year to year.

Don't forget to treat all your brewing water with 1/4 crushed Campden tablet per 5 gallons, to remove chlorine or chloramines. You can use an equivalent pinch of K-Meta, instead.

OK, I wasn't sure if I should do it or not. The 3ml comes from trying to hit a mash pH of 5.2 in beersmith. My water company doesn't give detailed mineral profiles in their water report, they only give out the health & safety info and since the beer I've been brewing has tasted good I'm not really worried too much about my water. I just wanted to make sure I don't screw up my mash by missing the pH number by too much.

I'll be checking pH along the way with a cheap meter just to get some idea of where I stand. I suspect it won't matter enough to care about for making beer that tastes good to me.

 

[csantoni]

Not judging, genuine question. Might it make sense to go with a proven recipe since you're looking at a Pale Ale w/Cascade?

"Raise mash temperature to 170 °F, hold for 5 minutes, then recirculate." sounded like something I didn't want to try on my first all grain and I don't know how I'd do that in my setup that is gravity fed. Also, 90 min boil seemed unnecessary for a simple test batch. That recipe was my inspiration but I figured I'd keep it simple with one grain and use a different bittering hop that I have on hand.

 

[Knightshade]

"Raise mash temperature to 170 °F, hold for 5 minutes, then recirculate." sounded like something I didn't want to try on my first all grain and I don't know how I'd do that in my setup that is gravity fed. Also, 90 min boil seemed unnecessary for a simple test batch. That recipe was my inspiration but I figured I'd keep it simple with one grain and use a different bittering hop that I have on hand.

Gots it..feels like I'm always referencing it, but there is a Single Hop Pale Ale recipe on the board that gets a lot of use.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/base-pale-ale-recipe-for-single-hop-beers.673718/

 

[IslandLizard]

My water company doesn't give detailed mineral profiles in their water report, they only give out the health & safety info

They usually don't publish anything beyond EPA requirements. But they know how much each of those minerals we brewers are interested in are, every day! That's why you call to get the skinny on those.
But stability of your tap water is just as important. IOW, heavy fluctuations are going to make it more difficult to gauge what water you'll have next week, or next month.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Just to verify, you are using the Pale Ale Malt from Briess, and not the "base" Brewer's Malt/2-Row. I have not used their Pale Ale Malt, but it would probably make a decent beer. While like their Brewer's Malt as a fairly clean base malt, it makes a pretty plain beer by itself.

I would likely go for more hops. For many years my most brewed beer was a Cascade Pale Ale. My current recipe would bitter with about 20 IBUs of Columbus. Then for a 2.5 gal batch I would add 0.5 oz of Cascade (14g) at 10 min, flameout and dry hop (so a total of 1.5 oz of Cascade...around 42g). That is enough to get me into the Sierra Nevada Pale Ale level of hop character.

 

[IslandLizard]

The 3ml comes from trying to hit a mash pH of 5.2 in beersmith.

How does BS know what water you have on hand to make that suggestion? You're using 88% Lactic acid, it's very potent!

A mash pH between 5.2 and 5.5 will be all fine.

 

[csantoni]

They usually don't publish anything beyond EPA requirements. But they know how much each of those minerals we brewers are interested in are, every day! That's why you call to get the skinny on those.
But stability of your tap water is just as important. IOW, heavy fluctuations are going to make it more difficult to gauge what water you'll have next week, or next month.

Got it. For now that's a set of variables I'm not willing to mess with. After I have my process nailed I might dig into it. I was mostly wondering if I should correct for pH even without a profile, which it sounds like I probably shouldn't.

 

[csantoni]

How does BS know what water you have on hand to make that suggestion? You're using 88% Lactic acid, it's very potent!

A mash pH between 5.2 and 5.5 will be all fine.

I added nothing to the water profile so it assumes a water pH of 7, which my cheapo meter has verified. Right now it gives me an unadjusted mash pH of 5.67.

 

[csantoni]

Just to verify, you are using the Pale Ale Malt from Briess, and not the "base" Brewer's Malt/2-Row. I have not used their Pale Ale Malt, but it would probably make a decent beer. While like their Brewer's Malt as a fairly clean base malt, it makes a pretty plain beer by itself.

I would likely go for more hops. For many years my most brewed beer was a Cascade Pale Ale. My current recipe would bitter with about 20 IBUs of Columbus. Then for a 2.5 gal batch I would add 0.5 oz of Cascade (14g) at 10 min, flameout and dry hop (so a total of 1.5 oz of Cascade...around 42g). That is enough to get me into the Sierra Nevada Pale Ale level of hop character.

Yes, it's the Pale Ale Malt from Briess. I think that's what my LHBS has, but I'll probably take whatever Pale Ale Malt they have and adjust accordingly. I think I'll move some of the hops around a bit and use 28g total (1 oz). I'm actually shooting for something slightly less hoppy than Sierra but with the character of Cascade. Ultimately, this is more about testing my new equipment than going for any particular end product. I figured a basic pale ale with a hop I like would be a good place to start.

 

[IslandLizard]

I added nothing to the water profile so it assumes a water pH of 7, which my cheapo meter has verified.

Water pH means nothing. It's the alkalinity it contains that prevents change of pH. Your grain will add some acidity to your mash, but if you don't know the minerals and alkalinity of that water, you can't calculate the resulting mash pH.

A TDS meter can give you a decent idea how much minerals are in your water, but not what they are.

1. You can do a test mash with 8-16 oz of your grist mix (make a note of how much you used), without any other additions.
2. After an hour measure the mash pH of a cooled down sample (always measure pH at room temps). That's a good data point to how much alkalinity (and minerals) your water may contain.
3. ==> That's also an indication to how much acid you actually may need. Use a water calculator, I recommend BrunWater (it's free), not familiar if Beersmith can do that for you.
4. Then for all security, you can do another test mash, now with a proportional amount of acid added to it. Mash for an hour, cool down a sample and measure the pH again.
5. ==> You've got 2 data points now, and can estimate how much acid is actually needed. I'd aim for a pH of 5.35 and if it's a bit lower or higher you wouldn't know the difference.

Add the calculated amount of acid to your main mash, and toss the 2 sample mashes in at the end. No wort wasted.

 

[csantoni]

Water pH means nothing. It's the alkalinity it contains that prevents change of pH. Your grain will add some acidity to your mash, but if you don't know the minerals and alkalinity of that water, you can't calculate the resulting mash pH.

A TDS meter can give you a decent idea how much minerals are in your water, but not what they are.

1. You can do a test mash with 8-16 oz of your grist mix (make a note of how much you used), without any other additions.
2. After an hour measure the mash pH of a cooled down sample (always measure pH at room temps). That's a good data point to how much alkalinity (and minerals) your water may contain.
3. ==> That's also an indication to how much acid you actually may need. Use a water calculator, I recommend BrunWater (it's free), not familiar if Beersmith can do that for you.
4. Then for all security, you can do another test mash, now with a proportional amount of acid added to it. Mash for an hour, cool down a sample and measure the pH again.
5. ==> You've got 2 data points now, and can estimate how much acid is actually needed. I'd aim for a pH of 5.35 and if it's a bit lower or higher you wouldn't know the difference.

Add the calculated amount of acid to your main mash, and toss the 2 sample mashes in at the end. No wort wasted.

And this is why I posted. This is seriously awesome and I’m totally doing it when I brew the recipe.

 

[duffy5018]

"Raise mash temperature to 170 °F, hold for 5 minutes, then recirculate." sounded like something I didn't want to try on my first all grain and I don't know how I'd do that in my setup that is gravity fed. Also, 90 min boil seemed unnecessary for a simple test batch. That recipe was my inspiration but I figured I'd keep it simple with one grain and use a different bittering hop that I have on hand.

That's a mash out and, really, completely unnecessary for your test run. I rarely do them for normal brews. It's designed to stop conversion (the enzymes denature above ~165F), but if you're mashing for an hour around 150F, the conversion is done and you're not stopping anything. Just drain, sparge, and move on.

That said, I agree with the above. Just 2-row will make a pretty light and pretty plain malt bill. I'd add 5% of crystal 20-60 or something unless you're going for some sort of SMaSH thing using 2-row cuz it's plain so you can try out hops... And if you don't have a pH meter and don't know what's in your water, you'd be better off not adding any acid (you'll probably be around 5.5-5.6 with just the grains, and that's an ok pH for the mash) than just dumping acid in there.

 

[IslandLizard]

And this is why I posted. This is seriously awesome and I’m totally doing it when I brew the recipe.

Awesome! You can probably take the readings 30 minutes into each mash, but not much sooner. Make sure it's mixed well, then scoop out an oz of the wort (you want mostly liquid), and put in the freezer for a few minutes. Then take another reading after an hour and make a note of any differences.

I do test mashes in 1/2-1 gallon pots with a lid on, placed inside a prewarmed (but turned off!) oven at around 152F. Give a quick stir after 15' and another one halfway through. Back in the oven.

For small additions of acid, use a pipette and count drops. Or pre-dilute some of your 88% acid to 10% or 5% or so.
We have a whole forum here dedicated to all this and then some: Brew Science

 

[marc1]

OK, I wasn't sure if I should do it or not. The 3ml comes from trying to hit a mash pH of 5.2 in beersmith. My water company doesn't give detailed mineral profiles in their water report, they only give out the health & safety info and since the beer I've been brewing has tasted good I'm not really worried too much about my water. I just wanted to make sure I don't screw up my mash by missing the pH number by too much.

I'll be checking pH along the way with a cheap meter just to get some idea of where I stand. I suspect it won't matter enough to care about for making beer that tastes good to me.

If it's a cheap meter then how sure are you that it provides accurate results?

Inaccurate results are worse than no results because you will try to assign them meaning when they have none. If you can calibrate the meter and then check it in the calibration solution then it might be good.

 

[csantoni]

If you can calibrate the meter and then check it in the calibration solution then it might be good.

It came with calibration solutions that I used before I tested anything with it for the first time.

 

[marc1]

It came with calibration solutions that I used before I tested anything with it for the first time.

You should calibrate it before each session of use. Make sure that the meter reads the calibration solutions correctly.

 

[The_CuRe]

3g for dryhop, better not doing it, for 2.5 gal batch I would not go lower than 1 oz.

 

[csantoni]

I brewed this today for my first all-grain batch. I made a bunch of changes over the weeks leading up to brew day so it isn't exactly like the original recipe above.

More importantly, I did some pH testing with some small amounts of grain and got my hands on some water data that might be applicable to my town (I think if I really want to know I'll have to send some to be tested). I decided on 50ml of 10% phosphoric and 1/4 tsp of gypsum in the mash. This was based on some Bru'n water data along with my water report and trying to target something like Burton water.

My mash pH was 5.23 after 30 mins which seems pretty good. I did calibrate my pH before starting, which was the most annoying part of the brew day. I hit my water volume and OG targets spot on so all in all it was a really good day.

 

[csantoni]

Packaged this over the weekend. It's the best beer I've ever made and one I'm proud to share with others. Not only did it ferment, carb, and package as expected it also tastes exactly like what I wanted. It was just supposed to be an easy beer to prove out my equipment but I think I may actually make this again because it's so good.

 

[spittiz]

Packaged this over the weekend. It's the best beer I've ever made and one I'm proud to share with others. Not only did it ferment, carb, and package as expected it also tastes exactly like what I wanted. It was just supposed to be an easy beer to prove out my equipment but I think I may actually make this again because it's so good.

Looks good I think, beer is very blurry though since you got focus on the wall in that picture

It's a good feeling when a batch turns out great!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Packaged this over the weekend. It's the best beer I've ever made and one I'm proud to share with others.

Nice! What was your final recipe and hop schedule? The one in the top post?

I find the best way to learn while still drinking great beer is to 1) find a beer/recipe that you enjoy and 2) brew it often. Not every batch, but maybe a few times a year. You might want to brew the exact same recipe to dial in consistency with your process. Then you can brew it with a different base malt, or with some Honey Malt, or with Mosaic hops, or with a different dry hop schedule, etc. The worse case is you brew a batch that is not quite a good as your favorite version, but it will almost always turn out wonderful. Also, as you evolve your process (water chemistry, temp control, new fermenter, etc.) you have a baseline reference.

 

[csantoni]

Nice! What was your final recipe and hop schedule?

6 lbs Pale Ale Malt
5 lbs 2 Row
1 oz Cascade 7.5% First Wort
60 min boil
1 oz Cascade 6.7% Whirpool 10 mins @ 170F
1 pkg US-05
Fermented @ 70F for two weeks
Added pressure manifold on day 3 and sounded at ~14psi
3 gals into keg, 2 gals bottled

OG 1.053
FG 1.011

I wouldn’t mind a bit more hop aroma and flavour but the bitterness is perfect. I would probably add more whirlpool hops next time and see if that gets me there.

 

[csantoni]

I find the best way to learn while still drinking great beer is to 1) find a beer/recipe that you enjoy and 2) brew it often.

This is pretty much what I've been doing. I have a Belgian Witbier recipe and a Best Bitter recipe that I have brewed a few times each. They both started as extract or partial mash and have moved to all-grain as I have evolved my equipment. I didn't want to use either of those recipes for my first all-grain because they are somewhat complicated grain bills, the Belgian in particular. I think it will need some rice hulls when I do it as all-grain. I've tried to limit any recipe changes to one variable per batch so I understand the impact. It's been harder as I build out my equipment but I think I'm done (for now) on the hot side so I should be able to have some control over my experiments.