Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[RPh_Guy]

Hey, I just noticed that the probiotic you use has a lot more than just L. Plantarum. Isn't that an issue with contamination of your equipment if you do non-sour beers?

L. brevis is generally the only commerical species that is known to be hop tolerant to some degree, so hops alone will prevent cross-contamination with that culture. However, there's no need to take my word for it -- you can to prove it by making a 10-15 IBU starter and adding one of your capsules to it to see whether it will sour (assuming you can prevent wild contamination).

I use a lot of wild microbes plus commercial Brett, Pedio, and Lacto cultures in my brewing. I have a fastidious cleaning procedure that has allowed me to use one set of equipment even with those microbes and still avoid contamination. Others share similar experience.

Also, Lacto is ubiquitous. All of us have Lacto and other wild microbes on our gear (regardless of whether we brew sours) and we successfully avoiding contamination by means of our cleaning and sanitation practices.

Salud

 

[tizoc]

Thank you! That is exactly the answer I was wishing for. I haven't had issues with Brett (or var diasticus strains) ever, but lacto is new territory for me, that is why it makes me a bit nervous.

 

[tizoc]

I have one question. Do you guys always wait for the souring to be done before bottling?

I think my gose reached terminal gravity already, but the lacto was pitched just 24hs ago and I don't think it has had enough time to work. This beer will be naturally carbonated in bottles (I separated 2 litres of wort that I will mix into the beer at bottling time + some sugar to reach 3 vols).

Assuming I don't plan to add hops this time, can I bottle and have the lacto continue the souring process in the bottle? Or will the CO2 (or pressure) inhibit it in any way?

@RPh_Guy iirc you spund, so I guess this is a situation you have faced already.

Edit: just measured pH, it is at 3.65 25 hours after pitching the lacto, and gravity is 1.008, 49 hours after pitching WLP029 (down from 1.043).

 

[shetc]

Berliner weisse with passion fruit and guava. This used a staggered pitch, starting with Imperial Dieter kolsch yeast and then a quart of Goodbelly after a week of initial fermentation. Therefore, the lactobacillus was never killed off with boiling. This is after 12 weeks conditioning in the bottle.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you guys always wait for the souring to be done before bottling?

It will probably continue to sour in the bottle if you don't add hops. (The culture I use continues to sour but I couldn't say with 100% certainly since you're using a different culture.) It's definitely fine to bottle it now if you don't want hops.

I'm still new to the spunding process, but regardless, up to this point my beer has always soured completely before the yeast fermentation finishes. For rapid fermentations like that I only delay the Lacto for maybe 8-12 hours when post-souring. Everyone has different pitching practices etc, so it's hard to give one-size-fits-all recommendations for when to to pitch the bacteria for post-souring.

 

[The M]

RPh_Guy Absolutely great stuff and very detailed FAQ. I'm a huge sour beer enthusiast and been always afraid of ruining my equipment by brewing a sour beer. This co-souring method sounds perfect technique. Couple of questions:

-Do you think Probi Mage® would be ok for co-souring method? I live in Europe so I don't have access to Swansons capsules you mentioned in your first post. I know that there must be products equivalent to Swansons around here but this was the cheapest product I could find with quick google search. The product info states that there are at least 10 billion bacteria per capsule. I also noticed that my LHBS have Lallemand WildBrew Sour Pitch in stock but which one of these two you would prefer?

-I would probably like to add some frozen fruit puree to the mix so any advice when and how should I add the pure? Is it ok to add the puree straight into primary? I wouldn't want to rack the beer into secondary because I'm a bit afraid of oxidation

 

[fun4stuff]

RPh_Guy Absolutely great stuff and very detailed FAQ. I'm a huge sour beer enthusiast and been always afraid of ruining my equipment by brewing a sour beer. This co-souring method sounds perfect technique. Couple of questions:

-Do you think Probi Mage® would be ok for co-souring method? I live in Europe so I don't have access to Swansons capsules you mentioned in your first post. I know that there must be products equivalent to Swansons around here but this was the cheapest product I could find with quick google search. The product info states that there are at least 10 billion bacteria per capsule. I also noticed that my LHBS have Lallemand WildBrew Sour Pitch in stock but which one of these two you would prefer?

-I would probably like to add some frozen fruit puree to the mix so any advice when and how should I add the pure? Is it ok to add the puree straight into primary? I wouldn't want to rack the beer into secondary because I'm a bit afraid of oxidation

I know question wasn't directed at me but those capsules look perfect! Only L. Plantarum and 10 bill CFUs. The sour pitch looks good too.

I always add fruit to primary in a fine mesh hop bag when I'm a few points above predicted FG (when it's slowing down). I don't think it's necessary to rack to a secondary.

My only question is if I should bother squeezing the fruit bag before I rack to my keg? I want as much fruit flavoring as possible. But I usually do closed transfers and spund to limit exposure to air. Sours shouldn't be as sensitive to oxidation given low amount of hops though? I've done it both ways in the past. It seems that a lot of the bag does empty when doing a closed transfer but I'm wondering what others do.

Edit:
And my puree is really chunky. I usually use an immersion blender while pasteurizing to roughly chop things up. There's still usually plenty of chunks.

 

[The M]

fun4stuff I didn't by no means direct my question solely to RPH, so no worries. I appreciate anyone who has the time to contribute and give advice

Anyway the specification of the Probi Mage looks good to me but as I don't have any practical experience about co-souring technique I wanted to be sure. Have you tried co-souring method yourself? What kind of Lacto you have used?

I have some mesh hop bags available so maybe I should try dumping the puree in the bag. It would be much more easier because I just don't like the idea of racking to the secondary. Actually haven't racked any of my beers to secondary, ever. But that's just my style

 

[tizoc]

Edit: just measured pH, it is at 3.65 25 hours after pitching the lacto, and gravity is 1.008, 49 hours after pitching WLP029 (down from 1.043).

Update: pH is still at 3.65 about 15 hours later, I guess the lacto will not work as well without agitation from the active fermentation? Either that or the lacto I have will just stop there.

I'm going to go ahead and bottle this batch later today as it is, and next time I'm going to pitch the lacto earlier. After all, this batch was a test drive, so I'm happy either way.

 

[fun4stuff]

fun4stuff I didn't by no means direct my question solely to RPH, so no worries. I appreciate anyone who has the time to contribute and give advice

Anyway the specification of the Probi Mage looks good to me but as I don't have any practical experience about co-souring technique I wanted to be sure. Have you tried co-souring method yourself? What kind of Lacto you have used?

I have some mesh hop bags available so maybe I should try dumping the puree in the bag. It would be much more easier because I just don't like the idea of racking to the secondary. Actually haven't racked any of my beers to secondary, ever. But that's just my style

Yes, I'm on my second time co-souring. So I'm not an expert my any stretch of the imagination. I used the goodbelly probiotic juice which is available at the local grocery stores here (closer than my local homebrew store). It contains only L. Plantarum.

As I'm sure you read, an important point is not to add any hops before adding l. plantarum since this inhibits the growth of l. planaturm. You can add hops via a hop tea or dry hopping. I'm not sure I will even add hops this time.

The first time I added the goodbelly about a day after adding yeast so that I would give the yeast a head start and get more flavor profile from the yeast. Souring took almost a week (probably should have made a lacto starter). This time I added the yeast and goodbelly at the same time and my pH was 3.2 after 2 days and tasted nice and sour.

I usually pasteurize my previously frozen fruit according to what I find online (i think it's like heating to 145 deg F for 30 mins, but double check). Some say it's not necessary but I do know some bacteria/yeast can survive being frozen so I do it anyway. I then cool the fruit to near fermentation temps (Placing pot in an ice bath). I then sanitize the large hop bag in starsan or boiling it in water. I then have my helper (wife) hold the bag over my bucket fermenter and I carefully pour the puree into the bag, tie bag off, and let it sink into the beer and close bucket back up for another week or so (when fermentation stops).

I also have not used a secondary for like 5+ years. There was push on these forums about 5-6 Years ago regarding how they really aren't necessary. At first people would still sometimes do it for dry hops or when adding fruit.... But now I add fruit in primary and dry hop in primary and/or keg.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you think Probi Mage® would be ok for co-souring method?

I would go with this. L. plantarum strain 299v is proven, and I imagine it's cheaper that Wild Pitch.

I would probably like to add some frozen fruit puree to the mix so any advice when and how should I add the pure? Is it ok to add the puree straight into primary?

I'm really not a fruit beer guy, but I think @fun4stuff nailed it. Add the puree in a mesh bag in the primary vessel when fermentation is nearly complete.

Update: pH is still at 3.65 about 15 hours later, I guess the lacto will not work as well without agitation from the active fermentation? Either that or the lacto I have will just stop there.

This is interesting, and unfortunate, but at least it's in "sour beer" territory. It's been at a minimum of 19°C, right?
Lactobacillus doesn't require agitation to drop pH, so it may just be either that particular strain has a higher terminal pH or it's not capable of breaking down dextrins.
I've never seen anyone use that particular probiotic before, so I don't know.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I would go with this. L. plantarum strain 299v is proven, and I imagine it's cheaper that Wild Pitch.

Wild Pitch also works really well though - you only need a quarter (maybe even less) of what the packet instructions say (if you're copitching). The instructions are presumably for kettle souring. So, both will work well - go with whatever's cheaper. FWIW, probiotics are more expensive in Australia than wild pitch. It might be the same in Europe.

 

[stealthfixr]

Would it be possible using this co-souring method to post-hop bitter the fermented wort with a highly hopped "starter" sized pitch that is added after the souring? Or, is this just unnecessary--just dry hop to stop souring?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

You sure can. Check post #344.

 

[tizoc]

This is interesting, and unfortunate, but at least it's in "sour beer" territory. It's been at a minimum of 19°C, right?
Lactobacillus doesn't require agitation to drop pH, so it may just be either that particular strain has a higher terminal pH or it's not capable of breaking down dextrins.
I've never seen anyone use that particular probiotic before, so I don't know.

Yes, both times I took a measurement the beer was at 20C. The probiotic I used is not the one I mentioned I can find here, it is pure L. Plantarum (Lp299v).

It is bottled now, once it has carbonated I will open a bottle to give it a try and separate a bit, degas it and measure again.

 

[The M]

As I'm sure you read, an important point is not to add any hops before adding l. plantarum since this inhibits the growth of l. planaturm. You can add hops via a hop tea or dry hopping. I'm not sure I will even add hops this time.

Yep, I read that. My plan is to measure the beer with ph meter and by tasting before adding a small hop charge

The first time I added the goodbelly about a day after adding yeast so that I would give the yeast a head start and get more flavor profile from the yeast. Souring took almost a week (probably should have made a lacto starter). This time I added the yeast and goodbelly at the same time and my pH was 3.2 after 2 days and tasted nice and sour.

I usually pasteurize my previously frozen fruit according to what I find online (i think it's like heating to 145 deg F for 30 mins, but double check). Some say it's not necessary but I do know some bacteria/yeast can survive being frozen so I do it anyway. I then cool the fruit to near fermentation temps (Placing pot in an ice bath). I then sanitize the large hop bag in starsan or boiling it in water. I then have my helper (wife) hold the bag over my bucket fermenter and I carefully pour the puree into the bag, tie bag off, and let it sink into the beer and close bucket back up for another week or so (when fermentation stops).

Very helpful info once again. I will add yeast and lacto at the same time as it seems it worked for you and couple of others. And I will have to double check the pasteurizing method but will do that also. I don't want to cut any corners while brewing.

One more question about yeast. At the moment I have San Diego Super & Vermont yeast in stock and before brewing my first sour I'm going to brew with Hornindal Kveik yeast. Should I go with the clean one (San Diego) or Vermont/Kveik. I mean are those yeast suitable for sour beer brewing? I read the RPh_Guy Modern Brew House wiki and there was very useful information about ingredients including yeasts but I have no idea how those three yeast will perform with sour?

 

[The M]

I would go with this. L. plantarum strain 299v is proven, and I imagine it's cheaper that Wild Pitch.

L. plantarum sure is cheaper here. Would you agree that one capsule is enough for 5gal batch? I won't probably do any harm if I "overpitch" and pitch two of those Probi Mage capsules?

I'm really not a fruit beer guy, but I think @fun4stuff nailed it. Add the puree in a mesh bag in the primary vessel when fermentation is nearly complete.

I'm going to follow fun4stuff instructions with the fruit puree

 

[The M]

Wild Pitch also works really well though - you only need a quarter (maybe even less) of what the packet instructions say (if you're copitching). The instructions are presumably for kettle souring. So, both will work well - go with whatever's cheaper. FWIW, probiotics are more expensive in Australia than wild pitch. It might be the same in Europe.

Ok, that's good to know about Sour Pitch. And yes, I'm going to try co-pitching method. For some reason L. plantarum is cheaper here. 40 capsules costs around $14 and my LHBS charges $17.5 from 10g Lallemand Sour Pitch. I'll will give L. plantarum capsules a go.

 

[fun4stuff]

One more question about yeast. At the moment I have San Diego Super & Vermont yeast in stock and before brewing my first sour I'm going to brew with Hornindal Kveik yeast. Should I go with the clean one (San Diego) or Vermont/Kveik. I mean are those yeast suitable for sour beer brewing? I read the RPh_Guy Modern Brew House wiki and there was very useful information about ingredients including yeasts but I have no idea how those three yeast will perform with sour?

I'm not sure about how those yeasts will perform either. They all should be suitable. My understanding is that you can use any type of beer yeast yiu want; base the decision as you normally would: what kind of flavor profile from the yeast do you want for your sour beer? For my two sours, I have used hefeweizen yeasts (they are what I had on hand).

2 capsules should be good.

 

[RPh_Guy]

There's no way to overpitch Lacto. The only thing is that faster souring will reduce yeast flavor.

Any yeast strain will work fine with these methods.

If you have fruit puree in a can, it's already pasteurized.

Hope this helps, cheers!

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

If this has been discussed on this thread already, please forgive me. Would like to use this method to brew a Flanders Red. I have some yeast harvested from a previous batch which I would like to use in it but that batch had hops. Is it possible to pre-sour with L. Plantarum so I can pitch that yeast afterword? Or is it too risky for contamination. Thinking I could try in and use lactic acid to pre-acidify the wort. Thanks!

 

[The M]

Got it. Thanks guys, I really appreciate this. Will report back when I have brewed my first sour

 

[Gnomebrewer]

If this has been discussed on this thread already, please forgive me. Would like to use this method to brew a Flanders Red.

The method in this thread is for sour only, which doesn't suit Flanders red. Adding brettanomyces after souring doesn't develop much funk at all. Check out rPh_guys (the OP) wiki page - it's linked in here a few times. He has a method for fast sour and funky beer that may work for a fast Flanders red (I'm planning to try the method shortly).

 

[RPh_Guy]

If this has been discussed on this thread already, please forgive me. Would like to use this method to brew a Flanders Red. I have some yeast harvested from a previous batch which I would like to use in it but that batch had hops. Is it possible to pre-sour with L. Plantarum so I can pitch that yeast afterword? Or is it too risky for contamination. Thinking I could try in and use lactic acid to pre-acidify the wort. Thanks!

I generally don't recommend pre-souring.

A Flanders Red needs Brettanomyces yeast to get the right flavor profile. There are two basic ways to make a sour with Brett (traditional vs modern), and in either case you want the yeast to produce flavor before souring the beer.

L. plantarum is best to use with my fast & funky method, but it won't work if there are any hops present. However you can use L. brevis or Sour Weapon P, which might not be quite as fast as L. plantarum, but they would be much more suited to overcoming a low hop rate ... Otherwise you should use yeast with no hops.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[drtskrtsourboi]

Thank you for this thread. This is the first place where I could find a method using lacto that was quick and the process I was hoping to use. I am attempting my first sour and wanted to use the following adapted recipe. Any feedback on the ingredients/their amounts/how long etc.

I recently got into homebrewing and my true love in the world of beer are sours, especially fruited sours. I personally do not enjoy kettle sours at all. Thankfully, where I live there are a bunch of breweries that do great barrel-aged/foeder-aged sours.

I wanted to do my own take on my favourite beer from my favourite brewery, Île Sauvage Brewing from Victoria, B.C. They do an amazing Pink Guava Vanilla sour.

I liked the basic look of this recipe online (I want to focus on a blonde/golden sour base for my fruited sours): How to Brew Sour Beer (With All-Grain Recipe)

I wanted to modify the recipe a bit given what supplies I was able to get and based on the fantastic guidance of this forum post. Since I am modifying the recipe, I wanted feedback on it.

I do 3 gallon batches so here is my modified recipe with some substitutions/additions:

I know you said no boil, but I also read somewhere in this thread that maybe I should if I am using pilsner malt? Should I boil with these ingredients and for how long? In the future I am definitely going to use the renew life ultimate flora capsules, but I already have these supplies at home (escarpment labs). I think I'll do part of this brew without fruit in bottles, just to note the difference between the fruited and not.

How long until the lacto has finished souring?

Glass carboy or plastic bucket for primary fermentation / secondary fermentation (probably a bucket for the fruited part for easy clean up)?

• 3.6 lbs Pilsner Malt
• 3 lbs Wheat Malt
• 1/3 lb. Rice Hulls
• 14.4 oz Flaked Oats - I really want to include this, how much?
• 12 lbs Guava (probably frozen/pureed, pink or otherwise) - too much? Would 1-1.5 weeks be good in secondary once fermentation is complete?
• 1 tablespoon Vanilla extract - too much? how long in secondary? Vanilla Bean instead?
• Coconut flakes - how much? Should I add it? When? Is this too many flavours?
• 1 pouch of Ebbegardenl Kveik - Escarpment Labs (This blend displays prominent fruity esters, leaning toward tropical guava and mango, Optimum Temp: 22-37ºC)
• 1 pouch of Lactobacillus Blend 2.0 - Escarpment Labs (main L. plantarum strain with a strain of Lactobacillus rhamnosus. This blend has a wide temperature range ( 30ºC to 45ºC) and enhances fruit flavours in the finished beer, with tasters noting red fruit and guava aromas)

Will I need a lacto starter with this blend from escarpment? Or a starter for the kveik yeast? 8-12 hour into kveik fermentation for post-sour lacto addition? What temperature should I ferment at? Will this recipe work? What would you change? Any feedback or help would be appreciated.

Sorry for the long first post, I am quite nervous and excited about making my first sour beer following your technique. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read the full length of my long post.

Cheers,
drtskrtsourboi

 

[RPh_Guy]

I know you said no boil, but I also read somewhere in this thread that maybe I should if I am using pilsner malt? Should I boil with these ingredients and for how long?

I boil all my beers, mainly just out of habit. The no-boil sour I tried didn't seem any different to me, but it's fine if you want to try it. There may be some advantage to just bringing it up to about 83°C for a minute to pasteurize, which avoids hot break formation. Some people boil for 10 minutes, even with pils malt. There's no right or wrong answer for boil length from what I can tell.

The bulk of souring typically takes 1-3 days depending on pitch rate and temperature, but it may continue more slowly for another 1-2 weeks.
I have no doubt the Lacto blend from escarpment is high quality. Richard and the team there are really into sour and funky beers.

I suggest creating a Lacto starter with wort from the batch. A delay of 8-12 hours is probably good in this case.

I would use a bucket. Frankly I would never use a glass carboy.

I'd shoot for about 20% oats if you want a significant contribution from it.

I advise to make your own vanilla extract and add it to taste when packaging.

Ferment at 37°C.

1-2 weeks on fruit is typical, after primary fermentation completes. I would add coconut at the same time.

As far as the recipe ... ???? I have no idea. Using a bunch of adjuncts really isn't my style; for me it would be great without the guava, coconut, & vanilla.

@tizoc if the pH is still high at that point I'd be interested to figure out why it stalled with your batch so we can avoid that. I'm wondering if you used any yeast nutrient (nitrogen, vitamins, trace minerals) in the starters or in the batch? I always put extra nutrients in starters and I wonder if it helps the Lacto reach terminal pH faster.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I haven't used coconut, but have read that it can cause problems due to the oil content. I'd suggest a bit of research before use.
4lbs per gallon is a lot of fruit in a beer like this - it could be quite dominant. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it depends what you're aiming for.

 

[tizoc]

@tizoc if the pH is still high at that point I'd be interested to figure out why it stalled with your batch so we can avoid that. I'm wondering if you used any yeast nutrient (nitrogen, vitamins, trace minerals) in the starters or in the batch? I always put extra nutrients in starters and I wonder if it helps the Lacto reach terminal pH faster.

I used servomyces which I added when pitching the yeast (0.2g in a 20L batch).

But what I just noticed is that I made one important mistake. I have canned wort that I use to make starters, both hopped (combined and diluted post-boil+mash leftovers from multiple lager batches, not sure how many IBUs, but not too high) and unhopped (mash leftovers, that I plan to use to make sauergut). Instead of using unhopped wort for the yeast starter as I intended, I used hopped wort to make the starter

This was 1L, which got diluted into 20L of unhopped wort, but still there were probably a few IBUs in there. It still got to 3.65 pretty quickly, would this have happened anyway if hop-caused inhibition of the lacto was the cause?

 

[drtskrtsourboi]

I'd shoot for about 20% oats if you want a significant contribution from it.

I advise to make your own vanilla extract and add it to taste when packaging.

Ferment at 37°C.

1-2 weeks on fruit is typical, after primary fermentation completes. I would add coconut at the same time.

As far as the recipe ... ???? I have no idea. Using a bunch of adjuncts really isn't my style; for me it would be great without the guava, coconut, & vanilla.

Thank you for your quick and detailed response. I really appreciate it! If I am increasing oats to 20%, should I decrease my wheat malt or the pilsner malt? Or just leave my pilsner and wheat malt the same and increase the amount of oats?

And the 8-12 hours for the lacto starter will be long enough for it to be ready before pitching?

I will definitely split the batch between fruited and the sour on its own if you think it will taste good without the adjuncts. I am interested in doing a direct comparison with the two.

If the recipe, outside of the adjuncts, looks good to go then I will move forward with doing this.

Thanks again for your advice and support.

 

[drtskrtsourboi]

I haven't used coconut, but have read that it can cause problems due to the oil content. I'd suggest a bit of research before use.
4lbs per gallon is a lot of fruit in a beer like this - it could be quite dominant. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it depends what you're aiming for.

I have read that light toasting the coconut flakes can help mitigate that a bit, but I do know it is a problem. I was hoping the oats and wheat malt would offset that issue a bit as well. I will look into this more.

I would be okay with the fruit flavour being dominant. I just don't want the esters and sourness to get lost in that though. Do you think it would be prominent but not dominating with 2-3 lbs per gallon? If I am splitting the batches to fruit and non fruited I want their to be a distinct difference that even the casual beer drinker could notice (family).

Thank you for your input!

 

[The M]

I know you said no boil, but I also read somewhere in this thread that maybe I should if I am using pilsner malt? Should I boil with these ingredients and for how long? In the future I am definitely going to use the renew life ultimate flora capsules, but I already have these supplies at home (escarpment labs). I think I'll do part of this brew without fruit in bottles, just to note the difference between the fruited and not.

Can't comment anything about sour process since I'm about to brew my first sour in couple of weeks. But I've brewed bunch of batches (mostly ipa and apa) which included at least 50% pilsner malt and for me the minimum boil time has been 30min. And with that I have never detected any DMS in final product. You'll find articles around the net which recommends boiling time for pilsner malt at least 60min or even 90min but I think you're fine with less. Anyway it's up to you. Hope that your first sour is a success

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I would be okay with the fruit flavour being dominant. I just don't want the esters and sourness to get lost in that though. Do you think it would be prominent but not dominating with 2-3 lbs per gallon? If I am splitting the batches to fruit and non fruited I want their to be a distinct difference that even the casual beer drinker could notice (family).

Thank you for your input!

I haven't used guava and all fruits are different, so take this FWIW.
I typically use about 1/2 to 1lb per gallon in 1.045 beer (blend of pils and wheat malt) to get fruit in a subtle and supporting role. Raspberry is the only fruit that's quite dominant at that rate (passionfruit is close). Really high fruiting rates just taste like fruit to me and start to overtake the yeast/bacteria esters and malt flavours. My gut feeling is that 2lbs per gallon would be prominent but not dominant, 3lbs per gallon would move into dominant territory. For comparison, I have a passionfruit sour at the moment that used 0.6lbs/gallon of passionfruit pulp and the passionfruit is the most dominant flavour (but still not in-your-face). I think you would need more guava than passionfruit to get the flavour through though. Also, most brewers that add fruit to beer want the fruit to be dominant, so you'll often see rates of 3lbs per gallon +.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I used servomyces which I added when pitching the yeast (0.2g in a 20L batch).

But what I just noticed is that I made one important mistake. I have canned wort that I use to make starters, both hopped (combined and diluted post-boil+mash leftovers from multiple lager batches, not sure how many IBUs, but not too high) and unhopped (mash leftovers, that I plan to use to make sauergut). Instead of using unhopped wort for the yeast starter as I intended, I used hopped wort to make the starter

This was 1L, which got diluted into 20L of unhopped wort, but still there were probably a few IBUs in there. It still got to 3.65 pretty quickly, would this have happened anyway if hop-caused inhibition of the lacto was the cause?

Well that explains it.

Hops have a greater anti-microbial effect at low pH, which is why it's so easy to stop souring. So, yes, I believe the hops are why it stalled.

If I am increasing oats to 20%, should I decrease my wheat malt or the pilsner malt? Or just leave my pilsner and wheat malt the same and increase the amount of oats?

Maybe 50% pils, 30% wheat, and 20% oats.

And the 8-12 hours for the lacto starter will be long enough for it to be ready before pitching?

Yep, Lacto can double in just a couple hours.

 

[tizoc]

Well that explains it.

Hops have a greater anti-microbial effect at low pH, which is why it's so easy to stop souring. So, yes, I believe the hops are why it stalled.

Interesting.

Next planned brew is a post-soured saison using BE-134 (with no starter), using the same capsules, that will remove all doubt.

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

I generally don't recommend pre-souring.

A Flanders Red needs Brettanomyces yeast to get the right flavor profile. There are two basic ways to make a sour with Brett (traditional vs modern), and in either case you want the yeast to produce flavor before souring the beer.

L. plantarum is best to use with my fast & funky method, but it won't work if there are any hops present. However you can use L. brevis or Sour Weapon P, which might not be quite as fast as L. plantarum, but they would be much more suited to overcoming a low hop rate ... Otherwise you should use yeast with no hops.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks! Just co-pitched a Berliner-esque wheat last week and added a hop tea after 3 days, (acidity was noticebly tart, not sour, just where I liked it.) Was planning to bottle this batch, anything you have to do differently with bottling?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks! Just co-pitched a Berliner-esque wheat last week and added a hop tea after 3 days, (acidity was noticebly tart, not sour, just where I liked it.) Was planning to bottle this batch, anything you have to do differently with bottling?

Nope, normal bottling procedure.

 

[drtskrtsourboi]

Maybe 50% pils, 30% wheat, and 20% oats.


Yep, Lacto can double in just a couple hours.

Thanks! I purchased a Renew Life Ultimate Flora pack of 30 with 30 billion active cultures. Here is a picture of the lacto it contains and others:

Do I need to worry about any of the other lactos/ingredients for flavouring or hop resistance? It seems like quite a large amount of l. plantarum vs. the picture you shared of your own pack. I wanted your opinion on how many I will need to use (I am assuming just one). And because it is such a large amount vs what you use will I need to do a lacto starter for the post-souring technique with this amount? Or do I still need a starter? Will it sour quicker and stronger with this amount of active cultures? Any answers you have are appreciated.

Cheers,
drtskrtsourboi

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do I need to worry about any of the other lactos/ingredients for flavouring or hop resistance?

No worries!

I wanted your opinion on how many I will need to use (I am assuming just one).

I have good sourness using the contents of just 1-2 capsules, whether co-souring or making a starter for post-souring.

And because it is such a large amount vs what you use will I need to do a lacto starter for the post-souring technique with this amount?

I do recommend a starter when post-souring. You're certainly welcome to experiment if you think there might be a better way.

Will it sour quicker and stronger with this amount of active cultures? Any answers you have are appreciated.

It's hard to say. Possibly, yes, higher pitch rate should increase the rate of souring, but perhaps not the ultimate level of sourness.

I just brewed a sour yesterday and I have it controlled at 66°F +/- 1°F. I pitched 2 caps of Renew Life that expired in November of last year.
I will try to track pH & s.g. every 24 hours, for science.

 

[drtskrtsourboi]

No worries!


I have good sourness using the contents of just 1-2 capsules, whether co-souring or making a starter for post-souring.


I do recommend a starter when post-souring. You're certainly welcome to experiment if you think there might be a better way.


It's hard to say. Possibly, yes, higher pitch rate should increase the rate of souring, but perhaps not the ultimate level of sourness.

I just brewed a sour yesterday and I have it controlled at 66°F +/- 1°F. I pitched 2 caps of Renew Life that expired in November of last year.
I will try to track pH & s.g. every 24 hours, for science.

Thanks for the reply! I will keep all of these things in mind. Is there an ideal temperature for the renew life flora ultimate or will it work at any temperature between 65-98 degrees Fahrenheit? Do these temperatures change the flavours/aromas produced?

Cheers,
drtskrtsourboi

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for the reply! I will keep all of these things in mind. Is there an ideal temperature for the renew life flora ultimate or will it work at any temperature between 65-98 degrees Fahrenheit? Do these temperatures change the flavours/aromas produced?

Cheers,
drtskrtsourboi

I get a little funk from it fermenting hot (90+).