Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[phyllobeddo]

I'm considering doing the following for my first sour. I normally brew All Grain BIAB batches, but I got interested in the No Boil, Extract, NE IPA batches thread here on HBT so I got some extra DME. I was also looking into brewing a kettle sour Gose and then ran across THIS thread. So what do you guys think of the following recipe and process?

Recipe for 2.5 gallon batch:

2.75 gallons RO water

1.5# Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
1# Briess Pilsen Light DME
Expected OG 1.041

6 g Crushed Coriander
6 g Pink Himalayan Salt

Considering a dry hop addition. Galaxy, Citra, Motueka, or Sorachi Ace. Not 100% sure about the dry hop addition. I will say that I LOVE dry hopped sours, though.

Co-Pitch
Lacto: 2 or 3 Swanson L. Plantarum pills
Sacc: BRY-97 (I do not like US-05)

Process:

Heat RO water to 200, mix up DME, salt, and coriander. Add wort chiller and then hold at 170-180F for ~30 minutes to sanitize. Cool to ~68F. Co-pitch two or three Swanson pills and rehydrated BRY-97. (BRY-97 is a notoriously slow starter. I was wondering if that is helpful or not in this case.) Check ph and taste after 24 hours. Dry hop after the beer tastes sour enough. Keg and carb when done.

I have all of the ingredients listed above on hand. Just trying to work out the specifics.

Sound sane? Thoughts?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm considering doing the following for my first sour. I normally brew All Grain BIAB batches, but I got interested in the No Boil, Extract, NE IPA batches thread here on HBT so I got some extra DME. I was also looking into brewing a kettle sour Gose and then ran across THIS thread. So what do you guys think of the following recipe and process?

Recipe for 2.5 gallon batch:

2.75 gallons RO water

1.5# Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
1# Briess Pilsen Light DME
Expected OG 1.041

6 g Crushed Coriander
6 g Pink Himalayan Salt

Considering a dry hop addition. Galaxy, Citra, Motueka, or Sorachi Ace. Not 100% sure about the dry hop addition. I will say that I LOVE dry hopped sours, though.

Co-Pitch
Lacto: 2 or 3 Swanson L. Plantarum pills
Sacc: BRY-97 (I do not like US-05)

Process:

Heat RO water to 200, mix up DME, salt, and coriander. Add wort chiller and then hold at 170-180F for ~30 minutes to sanitize. Cool to ~68F. Co-pitch two or three Swanson pills and rehydrated BRY-97. (BRY-97 is a notoriously slow starter. I was wondering if that is helpful or not in this case.) Check ph and taste after 24 hours. Dry hop after the beer tastes sour enough. Keg and carb when done.

I have all of the ingredients listed above on hand. Just trying to work out the specifics.

Sound sane? Thoughts?

Looks good. I just have a couple thoughts:

• 10 minutes at 170-180°F would be more than enough time for sanitation.
• I highly recommend proper rehydration technique, closely following Lallemand's instructions. Using a water bath helps maintain correct temperature. Bonus points if you have Go-Ferm. It's only a slow starter because people don't rehydrate it properly.
• Personally I skip the coriander when making a hoppy American gose.

Cheers

 

[deeve007]

Not having the equipment to measure/treat water at present, as well as limited yeast, grain & hops options, I've had great success with a simple 50/50 pilsner/wheat grain bill, and co-pitching us05 with the my Lacto source of choice (once with Sour Pitch, twice now with Swanson L. Plantarum capsules) as my "base" sour/gose recipe.

Obviously I'll be experimenting like crazy once I have access to more varieties of everything!

 

[phyllobeddo]

Looks good. I just have a couple thoughts:

• 10 minutes at 170-180°F would be more than enough time for sanitation.
• I highly recommend proper rehydration technique, closely following Lallemand's instructions. Using a water bath helps maintain correct temperature. Bonus points if you have Go-Ferm. It's only a slow starter because people don't rehydrate it properly.
• Personally I skip the coriander when making a hoppy American gose.

Cheers

Great! Thanks for looking it over and providing some more tips. Much appreciated.
10 minutes sounds much better than 30! Shorten the brew day even more.
I've rehydrated this yeast before, but never followed the instructions as they are on the pdf you provided and I've not used Go-Ferm either. Sounds like a good product to have on hand.
By the time I brew this, hopefully in a few days, I may just remove both the salt and coriander and add some fruit, haha.

 

[deeve007]

Personally I'm liking the subtle saltiness with a gose vs sour, but obviously would depend on what flavours you're going for (pretty sure my passion fruit sour wouldn't have worked as well as a gose). The coriander for me adds a subtle something I like, but I need to experiment with more and less (or none) of it before being able to say what exactly I do/don't like about it. Which obviously you can do yourself over time too!

 

[fendersrule]

I bring to a boil personally so I can use my wort chiller to cool it faster. Something to think about--it's takes actually less time to boil + chiller cool than to 170-180F w/out chiller and for it to sit and fall to pitching temps.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I bring to a boil personally so I can use my wort chiller to cool it faster. Something to think about--it's takes actually less time to boil + chiller cool than to 170-180F w/out chiller and for it to sit and fall to pitching temps.

He's using a chiller.

 

[Funky Frank]

1.5# Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
1# Briess Pilsen Light DME
Expected OG 1.041

6 g Crushed Coriander
6 g Pink Himalayan Salt

love the plan! Bavarian DME is already 50/50 pils/wheat but adding more barley is common. Some people shy away from pink salt b/c it can add an iron-like taste that can come off like blood.

 

[phyllobeddo]

Personally I'm liking the subtle saltiness with a gose vs sour, but obviously would depend on what flavours you're going for (pretty sure my passion fruit sour wouldn't have worked as well as a gose). The coriander for me adds a subtle something I like, but I need to experiment with more and less (or none) of it before being able to say what exactly I do/don't like about it. Which obviously you can do yourself over time too!

I'm not exactly sure of what flavors I'm going for at this point. Having some coriander and Himalayan Salt on hand prompted me to choose Gose. I'm considering a dry hop, also. I have a lemon peel tincture that might mix well in here. So many options! I just need to get started at this point.

 

[phyllobeddo]

love the plan! Bavarian DME is already 50/50 pils/wheat but adding more barley is common. Some people shy away from pink salt b/c it can add an iron-like taste that can come off like blood.

Aw crap! I've never heard that about the pink salt. Iron/blood is definitely not a flavor I'm going for. Thanks for the info. I'll consider that as well.

 

[brownni5]

Some people shy away from pink salt b/c it can add an iron-like taste that can come off like blood.

Vampire gose?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Some people shy away from pink salt b/c it can add an iron-like taste that can come off like blood.

I'm wondering where you heard this. I don't see anything online about it.

It appears that 1g of pink salt contains perhaps 0.037mg of iron. (random source on the web)
So.... 6 g salt contains 0.22mg and in 10L, that's 0.022ppm.
Taste threshold is about 0.1ppm (according to Martin Brungard), so it wouldn't be an issue in this case.

 

[phyllobeddo]

I'm wondering where you heard this. I don't see anything online about it.

It appears that 1g of pink salt contains perhaps 0.037mg of iron. (random source on the web)
So.... 6 g salt contains 0.22mg and in 10L, that's 0.022ppm.
Taste threshold is about 0.1ppm (according to Martin Brungard), so it wouldn't be an issue in this case.

FWIW, I found this article yesterday.

https://beerandbrewing.com/a-pinch-of-salt/

"Pink Himalayan salt or Hawaiian Alaea sea salt has an increased iron oxide content, thus the reddish/pink hue. Trace iron can add an interesting component to the beer, but while it complements meat very well, it can give a slight blood-like character to the beer if overdone. It can also affect long-term stability by increasing oxidation, but for a beer that’s designed to be consumed fresh and quickly, this is less of a concern."

 

[RPh_Guy]

FWIW, I found this article yesterday.

https://beerandbrewing.com/a-pinch-of-salt/

"Pink Himalayan salt or Hawaiian Alaea sea salt has an increased iron oxide content, thus the reddish/pink hue. Trace iron can add an interesting component to the beer, but while it complements meat very well, it can give a slight blood-like character to the beer if overdone. It can also affect long-term stability by increasing oxidation, but for a beer that’s designed to be consumed fresh and quickly, this is less of a concern."

Thanks for that.

They added the qualifier "if overdone". You'd need 5 times the amount of salt in your recipe to reach iron flavor threshold (according to the math I did). The beer would already be disgustingly salty for my taste.

 

[Dustin_J]

First co-fermented sour (Swanson's & US-05) is ready. Hibiscus & Passionfruit puree - super tasty. It's not quite a sour/tart as we'd like, but we'll settle that on the next go around. I used a little too much lactic acid at knockout, and I think the Hibiscus itself drops the pH some, so it got down in the 3.2 or so range and just wasn't very tart. Anyway, my wife wanted a beer that looked like a jewel - I think we accomplished that There's a little condensation in the pic (and I suck at photography to boot) - it's actually brilliantly clear. Thanks for all of the discussion everyone - especially RPh

 

[RPh_Guy]

First co-fermented sour (Swanson's & US-05) is ready. Hibiscus & Passionfruit puree - super tasty. It's not quite a sour/tart as we'd like, but we'll settle that on the next go around. I used a little too much lactic acid at knockout, and I think the Hibiscus itself drops the pH some, so it got down in the 3.2 or so range and just wasn't very tart. Anyway, my wife wanted a beer that looked like a jewel - I think we accomplished that There's a little condensation in the pic (and I suck at photography to boot) - it's actually brilliantly clear. Thanks for all of the discussion everyone - especially RPh

Nice! Great color.
Did you use a full low-oxygen brewing process by chance? In my limited experience the Lacto flavor is extraordinary with unoxidized wort for whatever reason. I suppose that's why sauergut is used.

 

[Dustin_J]

Nice! Great color.
Did you use a full low-oxygen brewing process by chance? In my limited experience the Lacto flavor is extraordinary with unoxidized wort for whatever reason. I suppose that's why sauergut is used.

Yes-ish on the Low Oxygen process. Full bore on the cold side. Hot side was capped mash, preboiled strike, etc, but a little less trifecta than usual and no cap during cooling. As strange as this sounds, the wife doesn't like beer that tastes "beery"- i.e., malty. So, I was trying to target "just a touch" of hot side oxidation to subtly lower the malt flavor. Hibiscus and passion fruit are both very clean and there's still a hint of pils malt flavor, so it seems to have worked out well.

 

[brownni5]

, so it got down in the 3.2 or so range and just wasn't very tart.

A pH of 3.2 isn't that tart to you?!?!? Dang.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fair enough. Something to consider.

 

[Dustin_J]

Fair enough. Something to consider.

This one was solely brewed for the wife - concessions were made

 

[fendersrule]

It's been 3-4 days since we pitched the super sour. I can tell by the airlock that she's pretty much done with whatever fermentation was left from it. A few more days won't hurt. It's time to dry hop.

We tasted it yesterday and today and yep, it's SOUR now. We're actually quite pleased with the sour level right now (and we love strong sours) but will plan to dry hop tomorrow. @RPh_Guy, we are so happy this worked for us and have you to thank. PM me your FB addy if you'd like. I'm thinking for these that 3-5 days of dry hopping time will be plenty. Just enough time for the hops to break down and sink to the bottom. It needs to be bottled in a slight hurry.

Here are my spare hops in the freezer. Please help me choose which hop for what vessel. I have two 5G to dry hop. One is peach, and one is blackberry. I assume .5 ounce for each one should do it?

1) Moteuka
2) Sirachi Ace
3) Cascade
4) Magnum
5) Nugget

Let me know what you would do. As much as I've brewed, I am far from a hop expert. I can tell certain hops apart, but I am far from having intimate knowledge with most hops out there.

Guys, the super post-sour process works GREAT. Like, really great. RPH, you should post this "backup plan" in your original post. It worked so well that I might actually prefer this method. I'll try the co-sour again with live, non-expired bugs, but damn, this method made a great sour. Definitely update the thread to include Goodbelly as a viable option too since it's available everywhere and is cheap. It just adds a character to it that is really good for fruit beers. We used Pomegranate blackberry. It colored the wort a deep red (2 gallons if Pilsen DME wort) with 30 ounces of Goodbelly (slightly less than the 34-36 ounces it comes in--hey, I had to drink some first). But the "red" completely went away after the 9-day souring process was over. It was yellow at that point, so whatever Goodbelly color you can find would work, if you're worried about coloring your beer based on the volume that I did-don't be. The color fades out, is what I'm saying.

The only "negative" is that it takes at least 5 days, up to 10 days, depending on how much heat you have on the super sour vessel. We had ours most of the days at 76-78F, and decided 9 days was simply enough. For anyone that will try this that can keep this same heat, my recommendation is to work backward from here because I think (I don't know, through intuition) that it will be ready around day 5. One other negative is that the calcium carbonate really leaves a HARD barrier on the bottom of the vessel. Just keep that in mind that you will be scrubbing the @**** out of it (carefully, of course with a non-scratching agent). PBW removed more than half of the "chalk' by soaking alone (impressive), but it will take extra time to clean the vessel from this method. The positives heavily outweigh the negatives however because it just WORKS. It's a solid as hell backup plan.

If you think about it, 5,000 ft view, post-souring is the same as pre-souring. You have a vessel that has no yeast (hopefully) and you are allowing it to sour prior to a yeast pitch. With post-souring, you are not using a "kettle" (like you would be "pre-souring"). This means you can put it in a sealed, Star-Stan'd container, with an airlock, that will pretty much guarantee success.

Co-souring >/= Post Souring > Pre-souring.

Kettle Souring (Pre-Souring) is just stupid IMO. Increased risk for what?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Here are my spare hops in the freezer. Please help me choose which hop for what vessel. I have two 5G to dry hop. One is peach, and one is blackberry. I assume .5 ounce for each one should do it?

1) Moteuka
2) Sirachi Ace
3) Cascade
4) Magnum
5) Nugget

1. Motueka - sounds great but I've never used it.
2. Cascade - I like it and do think it would work well.
3. Magnum - I don't really have any idea about its aroma. It's mainly for bittering but I did see one guy that likes it for aroma.
4. Sorachi Ace - I'm not really a fan of this variety.
5. Nugget - I like this variety but I would never used it in a sour because the dominant herbal character (mycrene) is out of place in my opinion. Some herbal notes can be ok in a sour IMO, but not as the dominant hop characteristic

That's all just my opinion, of course. Your preferences may vary widely from mine.
I suggest a minimum 0.5oz/ 5 gal, but feel free to use more if you want it hoppy.

Guys, the super post-sour process works GREAT. Like, really great. RPH, you should post this "backup plan" in your original post. It worked so well that I might actually prefer this method. I'll try the co-sour again with live, non-expired bugs, but damn, this method made a great sour.

Good! Happy to help. And also thanks for the feedback. Hopefully a backup plan isn't needed in most cases.

Good Belly is in the first post. I'm not sure whether different plantarum cultures produce different flavors, but that'd be a good experiment. I hate not knowing; I just need to do it. Renew Life gives lemon, berry, melon, peach, and a bit of earthiness, a little reminiscent of iced tea.
There's so little available data about the Lacto flavor because people just boil it away.

If you think about it, 5,000 ft view, post-souring is the same as pre-souring. You have a vessel that has no yeast (hopefully) and you are allowing it to sour prior to a yeast pitch. With post-souring, you are not using a "kettle" (like you would be "pre-souring"). This means you can put it in a sealed, Star-Stan'd container, with an airlock, that will pretty much guarantee success.

Well, "post-souring" would normally involve using wort from the main batch to make a small Lacto starter (200-500mL for 5 gal, with calcium carbonate) and then adding that back to the main batch 1-2 days later and the majority of souring occurs in the main batch. I mostly post-sour because I use flavorful yeast strains.

I wouldn't say this blending method is ideal, for a number of reasons, but I'm glad it worked!

 

[Funky Frank]

One is peach, and one is blackberry. I assume .5 ounce for each one should do it?

1) Moteuka
2) Sirachi Ace
3) Cascade
4) Magnum
5) Nugget

Moteuka and Sorachi Ace go together like peas and carrots! I could see .5oz of each going very well with the blackberry if it’s fruited on the low side (about .5 lbs/gal). Otherwise cascade is my vote for both.

Great updataes!

 

[fendersrule]

There's actually quite a lot of fruit in each one. We did 5lbs of blackberries (1lb/gal), and 10 lbs of peach (2lb/gal).

Moteuka/Ace for Blackberry...go for .5 ounce of each?

1 ounce Cascade for Peach?

 

[fendersrule]

Turns out I only had .5 ounces of Cascade, so I just used that for the peach. I did the Moteuka and Ace combo for the Blackberry!

 

[fendersrule]

Bottled 5.5 gallons of the peach sour today!

Flavor notes: Very sour with complex notes. Peach character is present, but not heavily forward. Beautiful pale peach-like color. Body is medium, which is going to make it quite enjoyable. I cannot explain the complex notes, but I am very impressed as it tastes like a "real" sour that's complex. We love it. It's very sour as well, not at our limit but pretty close! Massive success.

Final Gravity: 1.018. I was expecting a lower, but 10lbs of peach and another gallon of goodbelly/pilsen wort plus a 156 mash temp will probably keep it from falling down too much.

We bottled a couple habenero infused bottles, and the girlfriend wanted to bottle a couple with Xylo sugar as an experiment.

5.5% ABV. Bottled at 2.8 Co2 level.

Enjoy the pics. We are doing the blackberry next, so I'll post a similar update. I'm expecting lower FG from that one, since 5LBS of fruit was used.

 

[fendersrule]

5.5 gallons of blackberry bottled.

Flavor notes: Very sour as well, perhaps slightly a little less on the nose, but still definitely sour! Blackberry notes are strongly present on the nose and very complimentary. Beautiful deep red/maroon color. Body is still on the medium side. Lovely complex sour taste, but also getting a complex fruit taste here at the same time too. We love this one!

Final Gravity: 1.016.

5.8% ABV, bottled at 2.8 Co2 level.

2lb gallon for peach and 1lb gallon for blackberries seems to be the ticket.

 

[brownni5]

Have a toddler/small child at home? We just rid of our "grass" from the counter, even though our little guy is almost 3!

 

[brownni5]

Moteuka and Sorachi Ace go together like peas and carrots!

Like Forrest and Jenny? My buddy just bought a pound of Sorachi Ace, and I don't suspect he's going to like it, and I just so happen to have some Motueka. I see a Saison on the horizon!

 

[fun4stuff]

View attachment 675996 View attachment 675997 View attachment 675998 5.5 gallons of blackberry bottled.

Flavor notes: Very sour as well, perhaps slightly a little less on the nose, but still definitely sour! Blackberry notes are strongly present on the nose and very complimentary. Beautiful deep red/maroon color. Body is still on the medium side. Lovely complex sour taste, but also getting a complex fruit taste here at the same time too. We love this one!

Final Gravity: 1.016.

5.8% ABV, bottled at 2.8 Co2 level.

2lb gallon for peach and 1lb gallon for blackberries seems to be the ticket.

what are you doing with the ginger?

 

[fendersrule]

The lady always seems to leave out either ginger or garlic! I've never seen her use it, but I bet it gets used!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hey guys!

My article on sour beer is still a work in progress, but it's well on its way, so here you go:

https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer

It also includes the modern method for making fast sour beers with Brett.

You're welcome to make changes (it's a wiki) or you can provide feedback here.

Cheers!

 

[hdbii]

Hey guys!

My article on sour beer is still a work in progress, but it's well on its way, so here you go:

https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer

It also includes the modern method for making fast sour beers with Brett.

You're welcome to make changes (it's a wiki) or you can provide feedback here.

Cheers!

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I read your linked article about souring beer using L. plantarum. This will solve a long running problem I’ve had of trying to dial in just the right amount of sour for the level/type of funkiness planned for a particular beer. Other methods of souring were either one-dimensional (adding acid or kettle-souring) or lacked any way to easily control the final level of sourness (traditional infection of minimally hopped wort/beer for several months). Cheers

 

[Fathand]

Question - I am doing the post souring method and stupidly missed the part about the Lacto starter. I have added two Swanson L Plantarum capsules. Because I did not use a starter will I not see any souring?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Question - I am doing the post souring method and stupidly missed the part about the Lacto starter. I have added two Swanson L Plantarum capsules. Because I did not use a starter will I not see any souring?

I suggest to rehydrate the contents of a few capsules in warm non-chlorinated water for maybe 10 minutes and then add to the beer.

 

[thebeermanfromACK]

WOW. I have been brewing for over 10 years, and have been out of the brewing forums/publications/literature loop for the last 3-4 years because I've just sort of been over here "doing my thing." The very strange state of the world inspired me to plug back into the online brewing conversation. This was the first thread I read after returning to homebrewtalk, and I am beyond delighted. I have been a dedicated and confident brewer for quite some time, but my various living situations have been prohibitive to sour brewing...until now. Just put a jar o those beautiful capsules in my next Amazon shipment and can't wait to play around with some casual table sours for summertime.

 

[thebeermanfromACK]

So just, thank you thank you thank you.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just put a jar of those beautiful capsules in my next Amazon shipment and can't wait to play around with some casual table sours for summertime.

Very cool! Please report back with your results.

Welcome to HBT!

 

[phyllobeddo]

I'm considering doing the following for my first sour. I normally brew All Grain BIAB batches, but I got interested in the No Boil, Extract, NE IPA batches thread here on HBT so I got some extra DME. I was also looking into brewing a kettle sour Gose and then ran across THIS thread. So what do you guys think of the following recipe and process?

Recipe for 2.5 gallon batch:

2.75 gallons RO water

1.5# Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
1# Briess Pilsen Light DME
Expected OG 1.041

6 g Crushed Coriander
6 g Pink Himalayan Salt

Considering a dry hop addition. Galaxy, Citra, Motueka, or Sorachi Ace. Not 100% sure about the dry hop addition. I will say that I LOVE dry hopped sours, though.

Co-Pitch
Lacto: 2 or 3 Swanson L. Plantarum pills
Sacc: BRY-97 (I do not like US-05)

Process:

Heat RO water to 200, mix up DME, salt, and coriander. Add wort chiller and then hold at 170-180F for ~30 minutes to sanitize. Cool to ~68F. Co-pitch two or three Swanson pills and rehydrated BRY-97. (BRY-97 is a notoriously slow starter. I was wondering if that is helpful or not in this case.) Check ph and taste after 24 hours. Dry hop after the beer tastes sour enough. Keg and carb when done.

I have all of the ingredients listed above on hand. Just trying to work out the specifics.

Sound sane? Thoughts?

Here's an update on my first sour:

The beer is now cold crashing in the fridge since yesterday. The plan is to keg it on Sunday. Sample tasted very good uncarbed and at room temp! I'm really happy with how it's tasting right now. Lots of potential. I've yet to take a ph sample. I should take one, but I haven't gotten around to it.

Here's my amended recipe and process:

I went with No Boil and No Chill.

2.75 gallons RO water

1.5# Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
1# Briess Pilsen Light DME

4 g Crushed Coriander
4 g Pink Himalayan Sea Salt

1 g CaCl
1 g Gypsum
1 g Yeast nutrient
3 drops of Fermcap-S

Day 0:
Dumped DME and all other ingredients into the corny keg that I use as a fermenter. Heated water to 200 and poured into corny keg. Mixed ingredients with large whisk, checked temp (181F), and then capped it off and put it in the fermentation chamber. This took about 45 minutes or so.

Day 1:
Rehydrated BRY-97, somewhat properly, and then added the contents of four Swanson L. Plantarum pills before co-pitching at 68 degrees F. Installed Clear Beer Draught System in the keg and capped it off.

Day 12:
Pulled a sample and then put the corny keg in the fridge to cold crash. Sample tasted good and it was tart as well. FG showed 1.008. OG was 1.041, so 4.3% ABV.

 

[fun4stuff]

WOW. I have been brewing for over 10 years, and have been out of the brewing forums/publications/literature loop for the last 3-4 years because I've just sort of been over here "doing my thing." The very strange state of the world inspired me to plug back into the online brewing conversation. This was the first thread I read after returning to homebrewtalk, and I am beyond delighted. I have been a dedicated and confident brewer for quite some time, but my various living situations have been prohibitive to sour brewing...until now. Just put a jar o those beautiful capsules in my next Amazon shipment and can't wait to play around with some casual table sours for summertime.

Haha, same here. I was out of the loop just brewing my favorite types of beers for few years. Something made me want to try a sour, which i had avoided previously since i heard years ago you needed separate equipment. Then i found this thread. My first sour has been a big hit.