Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[Dgallo]

I was replying to an old comment of @RPh_Guy about doing a fast brett sour

I’ve found that fast Brett has never produced the same “Brett” character as ones that I waited 6-9 months to mature. Additionally, when co pitching with a lacto strain, I felt my Brett character was greatly reduced. That said, those comments seem to be more about my preference of how much funk I’m looking for.

the quick method method most certainly works though. Since I know your into hoppy beers I would suggest you try a 100% Bretted fruit ipa. Target 20-30 ibus. Go 70/30 2row/wheat. Use a fruit forward Brett strain at a high cell count. Then dryhop at 1-1.5oz per gallon and add 1 lb per gallon of an acid fruit like passionfruit or pineapple

 

[beervoid]

I’ve found that fast Brett has never produced the same “Brett” character as ones that I waited 6-9 months to mature. Additionally, when co pitching with a lacto strain, I felt my Brett character was greatly reduced. That said, those comments seem to be more about my preference of how much funk I’m looking for.

the quick method method most certainly works though. Since I know your into hoppy beers I would suggest you try a 100% Bretted fruit ipa. Target 20-30 ibus. Go 70/30 2row/wheat. Use a fruit forward Brett strain at a high cell count. Then dryhop at 1-1.5oz per gallon and add 1 lb per gallon of an acid fruit like passionfruit or pineapple

I'm thinking to try that at some point, thanks for reminding me!

From what I've gathered getting the fruity brett character can be done quiet fast but it's the horse blanket flavor that takes time but there might be shortcuts for it with the proper ingredients and yeast. While I love the super funky beers, I don't mind having a nice brett character fast and in the end I will probably keep these kegs around much longer for blending purposes.
I've been repurposing all my old fermentation kegs for a sour program now I got conicals in.

 

[Brewer dad]

Doing another Flanders red, copitch brett L with cellarscience cali(is05/wlp001 equivalent), I made a lacto starter that I was going to pitch after three days which would have been today.

There was a pretty big lag time to visible fermentation, 48 plus hours. My question is regarding pitching that lacto starter, I am thinking offset by another couple of days to compensate for lag, thoughts? I want Brett up front with lacto backing up.

 

[Dgallo]

Doing another Flanders red, copitch brett L with cellarscience cali(is05/wlp001 equivalent), I made a lacto starter that I was going to pitch after three days which would have been today.

There was a pretty big lag time to visible fermentation, 48 plus hours. My question is regarding pitching that lacto starter, I am thinking offset by another couple of days to compensate for lag, thoughts? I want Brett up front with lacto backing up.

I’ve never had great luck getting good Brett character when copitching with lactobacillus. Beers still taste good but never got enough funk. I’ve had better experiences blending or using pedio at a low pitch rate

 

[Brewer dad]

I’ve never had great luck getting good Brett character when copitching with lactobacillus. Beers still taste good but never got enough funk. I’ve had better experiences blending or using pedio at a low pitch rate

At least with Brett L I have had good results, nice cherry pie character from the Wyeast version. I found over time my last batch got a little acetic which is why I’m looking at delaying the lacto. Though it might have also been due to some oxygen exposure.

Btw I am stealing some of the techniques you’ve posted for adding wine barrel character. Have some red wine sitting on oak cubes as well as a walnut wine that I’ll dose parts of this batch with at bottling.

 

[EDF713]

I've had this thread bookmarked for years and now I'm planning to do this (thanks @RPh_Guy ). I'm curious if anyone who's tried this has any thoughts.

General process:
6 gallon no boil batch of 1.030 wort
before chilling, remove 2L of mash temp wort, add 2 oz of Tettnang hops, set aside in mason jars
chill wort to 90F or lower
co-pitch 2L gallon starter of lactobacillus plantarum with lutra kveik yeast (will probably use yeast nutrients, too)
let fermentation/souring complete
add hopped wort I had set aside on brew day, spund a few days before packaging

I'm also debating if I should just ferment in the kettle and use the leftover wort for keg conditioning.

As an aside, the lacto starter is one I did recently to test how well some swanson's pills I've had in my fridge since 2017 have held up. They worked like a champ, I could almost just drink the starter!

I've read the kveik yeasts handle souring well, does anyone who's co-soured with lutra have any comment on how well it turned out? Did you need nutrient?

Has anyone tried the preserved mash temp wort with hops? I did some calculations on beersmith and if I do a mashout I should get about 4 IBUs, probably about where I want it.

 

[ryking13]

I've had this thread bookmarked for years and now I'm planning to do this (thanks @RPh_Guy ). I'm curious if anyone who's tried this has any thoughts.

General process:
6 gallon no boil batch of 1.030 wort
before chilling, remove 2L of mash temp wort, add 2 oz of Tettnang hops, set aside in mason jars
chill wort to 90F or lower
co-pitch 2L gallon starter of lactobacillus plantarum with lutra kveik yeast (will probably use yeast nutrients, too)
let fermentation/souring complete
add hopped wort I had set aside on brew day, spund a few days before packaging

I'm also debating if I should just ferment in the kettle and use the leftover wort for keg conditioning.

As an aside, the lacto starter is one I did recently to test how well some swanson's pills I've had in my fridge since 2017 have held up. They worked like a champ, I could almost just drink the starter!

I've read the kveik yeasts handle souring well, does anyone who's co-soured with lutra have any comment on how well it turned out? Did you need nutrient?

Has anyone tried the preserved mash temp wort with hops? I did some calculations on beersmith and if I do a mashout I should get about 4 IBUs, probably about where I want it.

I'd be worried about that 2L of mash temp wort getting infected. You have fermentable sugars in there with nothing desirable to ferment it; my guess is something would find a way to ferment it and it might not be what you want.
I know others have made a "hop tea" that they add at the end of fermenting or at kegging/bottling. I've never done it but I'm guessing that's your best bet to get hop flavor.
Kveik should do fine IMO. I think I've used it once and it worked great with this method.

 

[EDF713]

I'd be worried about that 2L of mash temp wort getting infected. You have fermentable sugars in there with nothing desirable to ferment it; my guess is something would find a way to ferment it and it might not be what you want.
I know others have made a "hop tea" that they add at the end of fermenting or at kegging/bottling. I've never done it but I'm guessing that's your best bet to get hop flavor.
Kveik should do fine IMO. I think I've used it once and it worked great with this method.

Good to hear on the kveik.

The wort thing doesn't worry me as much. Putting hot wort in a sanitized mason jar with the hops and a lid, then keeping in the fridge after they cool off is worth a try. If they get funky I can always do a hop tea or dry hop. I've saved apple juice in mason jars for back-sweetening ciders many times with no issues.

 

[Dgallo]

I've had this thread bookmarked for years and now I'm planning to do this (thanks @RPh_Guy ). I'm curious if anyone who's tried this has any thoughts.

General process:
6 gallon no boil batch of 1.030 wort
before chilling, remove 2L of mash temp wort, add 2 oz of Tettnang hops, set aside in mason jars
chill wort to 90F or lower
co-pitch 2L gallon starter of lactobacillus plantarum with lutra kveik yeast (will probably use yeast nutrients, too)
let fermentation/souring complete
add hopped wort I had set aside on brew day, spund a few days before packaging

I'm also debating if I should just ferment in the kettle and use the leftover wort for keg conditioning.

As an aside, the lacto starter is one I did recently to test how well some swanson's pills I've had in my fridge since 2017 have held up. They worked like a champ, I could almost just drink the starter!

I've read the kveik yeasts handle souring well, does anyone who's co-soured with lutra have any comment on how well it turned out? Did you need nutrient?

Has anyone tried the preserved mash temp wort with hops? I did some calculations on beersmith and if I do a mashout I should get about 4 IBUs, probably about where I want it.

You can just copitch and not worry. Lactobaccilus is as easy to clean and sterilize as any yeast would be. Plus if it did happen to hang around it wouldn’t sour future batches as you’ll be hopping them

 

[beervoid]

You can just copitch and not worry. Lactobaccilus is as easy to clean and sterilize as any yeast would be. Plus if it did happen to hang around it wouldn’t sour future batches as you’ll be hopping them

I've got a dry brett / sourvisae / t58 batch going for 2 months, it has not become as sour as the other batch which was pitched with farmhouse, I think cause of the low attenuation of T58.
Wondering if pitching some lacto could fix this? Kegs are sitting at approx 25c.

 

[VikeMan]

I've got a dry brett / sourvisae / t58 batch going for 2 months, it has not become as sour as the other batch which was pitched with farmhouse, I think cause of the low attenuation of T58.
Wondering if pitching some lacto could fix this? Kegs are sitting at approx 25c.

Lactobacillus sours really well when pitched first, and okay when co-pitched. Pitched last, I wouldn't expect much out of it, because there's not much left to work with, especially after a couple months with Brett. But if you try it, and if your beer has any significant amount of hops, I'd suggest Lactobacillus brevis, which is known to be more hop tolerant than other strains. But that hop tolerance is a double edged sword...personally, my sours (other than kettle sours) are fermented/packaged with separate equipment.

ETA: If adding Lactobacillus last, I'd consider adding some lactose, which the lactobacillus can use, but the yeasts can't.

 

[beervoid]

Lactobacillus sours really well when pitched first, and okay when co-pitched. Pitched last, I wouldn't expect much out of it, because there's not much left to work with, especially after a couple months with Brett. But if you try it, and if your beer has any significant amount of hops, I'd suggest Lactobacillus brevis, which is known to be more hop tolerant than other strains. But that hop tolerance is a double edged sword...personally, my sours (other than kettle sours) are fermented/packaged with separate equipment.

ETA: If adding Lactobacillus last, I'd consider adding some lactose, which the lactobacillus can use, but the yeasts can't.

No hops in these batches. Sounds like back souring with some choice acids might be a better solution.
Im actually planning to use these to blend with some kettle sours to get some funk

 

[Dgallo]

No hops in these batches. Sounds like back souring with some choice acids might be a better solution.
Im actually planning to use these to blend with some kettle sours to get some funk

Time will be your friend in general. Have you taken a gravity reading? Lacto is a terrible attenuator, it can sour the entire batch with only dropping to it gravity by less than 2 points. So even if you add some lacto now, you can see an additional drop in ph, just will take much longer.

Your other option is to blend. Make a 1/2 gallon of dme wort and add probiotics to it and hold it in the 90s for a day. Then add that to the fermenter and let the beer stabilize again. I

Lactobacillus sours really well when pitched first, and okay when co-pitched. Pitched last, I wouldn't expect much out of it, because there's not much left to work with, especially after a couple months with Brett. But if you try it, and if your beer has any significant amount of hops, I'd suggest Lactobacillus brevis, which is known to be more hop tolerant than other strains. But that hop tolerance is a double edged sword...personally, my sours (other than kettle sours) are fermented/packaged with separate equipment.

ETA: If adding Lactobacillus last, I'd consider adding some lactose, which the lactobacillus can use, but the yeasts can't.

I have not noticed much difference in finished ph between copitchjng and pitching lacto first. Pretty much land 3.2-3.4 with good belly regardless.

The biggest thing I notice is when adding lacto first and then pitching yeast is I get absolutely nothing from the primary strain as the initial ph drop seems to stop ester production from the yeast. I’ve yielded far better results pitching lacto after the primary yeast was given 24 hours for ester production.

Another interesting thing I found with my house culture(wild capture + dregs from local breweries spontaneous beers), is that even in a hopped wort, overtime the ibus must actually lower because it began to sour at 4 months of aging, however this time it only dropped to 3.6

 

[Brewer dad]

Another interesting thing I found with my house culture(wild capture + dregs from local breweries spontaneous beers), is that even in a hopped wort, overtime the ibus must actually lower because it began to sour at 4 months of aging, however this time it only dropped to 3.6

That makes sense. Anecdotally have heard the same when trying to do IBU on big beers that will be aging a while.