Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[Miraculix]

Is there any issues with any yeasts not fermenting at such a low pH or am i good to go ahead with something classic like s05?

Afaik, you are good.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

There might be some yeasts that struggle with the low pH, but US-05 definitely doesn't have any issues. You're good to go.

 

[deeve007]

Is there any issues with any yeasts not fermenting at such a low pH or am i good to go ahead with something classic like s05?

I use s05 all the time, works great!!

 

[deeve007]

My salted plum gose before bottling... should probably have not added lactose with plum, not sure if it's a match, but did want to see how lactose changed the character, so all about learning... plum flavour nice but a little less intense than I hoped (1.7kg for 10L) but I'm guessing lactose smoothed that out a little. Anyway, we'll see how it turns out after carbonation!

 

[deeve007]

Might have to call it pink or rose something something rather than my intended "salted plum..." something...

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Might have to call it pink or rose something something rather than my intended "salted plum..." something...

I've got a peach+plum sour just about ready to keg at the moment. It's about the same colour! I'm also finding the flavour very subtle compared with other fruits I've used.

 

[deeve007]

I've got a peach+plum sour just about ready to keg at the moment. It's about the same colour! I'm also finding the flavour very subtle compared with other fruits I've used.

Interesting. I had a "salted plum gose" from an Aussie brewer I loved, and hence wanted to try plums for the first time. Their plum flavour was quite strong and colour darker, but of course I have no idea of how much they used.

 

[deeve007]

And here's my un-carbonated peach, vanilla & cinnamon gose pre-bottling... though cinnamon not coming through, so will be a "vanilla peach" gose I think. And these adjunts the lactose seems to suit, it is giving it a "milkshake" character which is quite pleasant.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You can make a hot tea with cinnamon and add it to taste.

 

[deeve007]

All good, it tasted pretty good how it was so went with it - "Vanilla Peach Milkshake Gose" - just learned a little about the amount of cinnamon needed to add enough flavour.

(and of course above should have been "un-carbonated" not "unfermented"... edited)

 

[RPh_Guy]

FWIW, I always use tea or extract now because I don't like risk. It's easy to ruin batch using too much spice, or add too little and not taste it. .. The amount of flavor you get from spice greatly depends on its freshness, so you can't even go by past experience or a recipe in my experience.
For example I ruined a beer just by switching from packaged ground nutmeg to fresh grated nutmeg.

Nutmeg tea is a little more of a pain because it pulls out oil which then coagulates when it cools and needs to be removed, but cinnamon tea is easy.

 

[deeve007]

How do you reduce oxidation risk of late adding adjuncts like this, mixing in, tasting, then possibly adding some more ...etc?

 

[RPh_Guy]

How do you reduce oxidation risk of late adding adjuncts like this, mixing in, tasting, then possibly adding some more ...etc?

I use a bench trial for determining how much is needed. It only gets mixed into the batch once, and multiple teas/extracts would be added at the same time.

In a perfect world I would be adding the tea right as I'm spunding, so that active yeast will immediately remove any oxygen. However it still works if I have to prime (with sugar or speise) -- add the tea along with the priming solution. I use a Low Oxygen Brewing process.

For still wine, sulfite takes care of oxygen.

 

[fendersrule]

Wanted to update. It's day 4 of souring. I am not daring to open the container or pull anything from it to taste because it seems viable for infection.

We had a cold spell, so it's sitting at 68-70F right now. Tomorrow will be 4F warmer, so I assume it may pick itself back up to 72-74 soon to finish off. In-fact, it's probably going to be even warming up even more towards the end since it will be 68F outside soon. I shake it once, or twice a day. Not a hard shaking motion, but a gentle swirl motion.

I can smell it coming out of the airlock if I apply pressure to cause it to burp. It smells like goodbelly predominately, even though that only consisted of 30ounces out of 2 gallons. I have no idea if it's sour or not. But boy, you'd hope so. No smell of yeast/hefe infections.

I assume on day 10 I will stick a bottle fill rod in the burper hole (that's sanitized) and do a quick taste before dumping it into my carboys. I've considered to probably dump it while the girlfriend holds a sanitized screen per your warning RPh on the calcium debris.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've considered to probably dump it while the girlfriend holes a sanitized screen per your warning RPh on the calcium debris.

Can't you siphon it?

 

[fendersrule]

The little 2 gallon bucket I'm using doesn't have a spiggot. Just a straight-up ol' food grade bucket.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The little 2 gallon bucket I'm using doesn't have a spiggot. Just a straight-up ol' food grade bucket.

A siphon is different than a spigot.

 

[fendersrule]

Oh, I have a siphon. I considered using it, but it's also small enough where I could just tilt and pour gently. It's only 2 gallons!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'd definitely recommend siphoning instead of pouring. Either way, I would do it without a screen. This minimizes oxygen exposure.

 

[RPh_Guy]

To help explain why my starter with calcium carbonate tasted so sour, I was doing some more research about lactate and sour taste. What I found conflicted with my theory that lactate adds sourness directly. That led me to do a tasting experiment. I was definitely wrong about calcium lactate tasting sour -- it does not.

I plan to do further experiments to verify that increased sourness in media with calcium carbonate actually occurs (I haven't routinely tasted it) and also measure pH & TA.

 

[fendersrule]

I have a little bit of exertion leakage from the lid. No more than a 1/4 teaspoon a day. Like I said it’s full, lol. I’m constantly checking to make sure bubbler is still doing its job.

I tried some of the wort and it was like sour patch kids. Very clean tasting. It tasted like sour juice, rather than sour wort, so it appears GoodBelly is doing a damn good job in keeping it tasting very fruity!

@RPh_Guy

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm glad you have the same experience so I don't feel like I'm crazy. It tastes really sour with the calcium carbonate and I'm having a hard time coming up with a scientific explanation.

 

[fendersrule]

and it’s only 5 days so far too. We moved it inside and now it will be at closer to 80F.

I guess 5 more days?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't have a definite timeline for this since it's outside my normal process.

It might be ok to blend now, since it's already tasting sour. My suggestion for 10 days was based on experiments I've seen with other Lacto species.

 

[fendersrule]

I’ll wait for 10 days then!
Good news is so far, so good!

 

[RPh_Guy]

That'll be best I think, even though this whole thing doesn't really make sense to me scientifically regarding the flavor.

By the way, your plants are looking good. I'm terrible at keeping potted plants alive. Microbes are somehow easier.

 

[fendersrule]

That’s because the lady takes care of all that stuff. Heat pads are a miracle for starting...and they do a good job at keeping containers +10F over ambient.

yeah she takes care of the potted stuff too. LOL

 

[fendersrule]

I'm glad you have the same experience so I don't feel like I'm crazy. It tastes really sour with the calcium carbonate and I'm having a hard time coming up with a scientific explanation.

I have a MS in science, but not one of chemistry nor biology.

What I can make of it, in complete laymen's terms, is that the calcium carbonate is raising the PH, and the "shaking" is yet dissolving more PH. You're essentially having the bugs continue to work overtime because it will never reach the terminal velocity PH level. In the end, you end up with lots of lactic acid, and hopefully, a very viable starter.

In this case, you are creating sour, without decreasing the PH to its terminal point. This agrees with the notion that PH is not at a 1:1 relationship with tartness. Without doing this method, PH is indeed a good way to still check progress.

With this method, there is no reason for me to bust out my PH gauge anymore, unless in your mind science calls for it. For me, it doesn't, so from here on out, it's all about taste-testing!

My guess is that if you had some sort of pump system hooked up, you could get by with far less than 10 days. My guess is the 10 days is simply to account that one needs to shake it--due that the calcium carbonate doesn't dissolve readily.

Grade me!

 

[RPh_Guy]

In the end, you end up with lots of lactic acid, and hopefully, a very viable starter.

Yes, definitely a very high cell count. Your explanation isn't wrong, but there's a piece missing and I've got it now.

It comes down to the fact that this is an equilibrium:

Lactic acid ⇌ hydrogen ion + lactate ion

It's helpful to think of the reaction with calcium carbonate as a separate process, and it is because it's not an equilibrium. Until the calcium carbonate is consumed, all the lactic acid and hydrogen ions will be consumed, leaving behind lactate (and no sour taste).

Once the calcium carbonate is consumed, then lactic acid will be able to establish its equilibrium. Even though lactate ion doesn't add sourness directly, it does so indirectly. Le Chatelier's principle explains what happens with the increased amount of lactate ion: when you add lactate into the equilibrium, the amount of lactic acid increases, and the amount of hydrogen ion decreases. This effect of increased lactic acid is amplified in our scenario because the decrease in hydrogen ions allows the LAB to produce even more lactic acid.

I hope I'm explaining that all right. This same effect occurs with higher amounts of alkalinity in your brewing water, although I'd presume only if you don't neutralize it with something other than mineral lactic acid, acidulated malt, or sauergut.

My guess is that if you had some sort of pump system hooked up, you could get by with far less than 10 days. My guess is the 10 days is simply to account that one needs to shake it--due that the calcium carbonate doesn't dissolve readily.

Hmm, maybe. I expect continuous agitation would increase the speed. However the calcium carbonate is really difficult to keep in suspension though, so I'm not sure pumping alone would be optimal. With that setup it's hard for you to realize how much is stuck to the bottom in your bucket because you can't see it -- I've done this in glass, so I could see it's really difficult to get it up into suspension.

 

[fendersrule]

Hell yeah.

you seem like someone that would enjoy John Carpenter’s Prince of Darkness and a few beers.

 

[fun4stuff]

That’s because the lady takes care of all that stuff. Heat pads are a miracle for starting...and they do a good job at keeping containers +10F over ambient.

yeah she takes care of the potted stuff too. LOL

View attachment 674121

Your sink looks like mine! I have my peppers started too. I find the fluorescent lights help a lot. I use my ferm wrap + inkbird as a seed germination mat. It’s a little cool in the room i have them in, so i leave it on until i repot them.

I have wondered about your guys science backgrounds. E.g. is RPh guy a pharmacist? My BS degree is in biotechnology and previously worked in a pharmacology lab. Now i’m an MD.. and it’s been 10+ yrs since i worked in a lab.

 

[RPh_Guy]

is RPh guy a pharmacist?

Yep. Doctor of Pharmacy and Board Certified Critical Care Pharmacist. I worked in a variety of areas in a 350+ bed hospital for a while and then in the emergency department for several years after I established clinical services there. Right now I'm a stay-at-home dad, more time to ponder the big questions about brewing.

What's your field of practice?

 

[fun4stuff]

Yep. Doctor of Pharmacy and Board Certified Critical Care Pharmacist. I worked in a variety of areas in a 350+ bed hospital for a while and then in the emergency department for several years after I established clinical services there. Right now I'm a stay-at-home dad, more time to ponder the big questions about brewing.

What's your field of practice?

Radiology. I figured you had to have a medical background when you mentioned something along the lines evidence based practices awhile back.

 

[fendersrule]

Experimental psychology here. Research and testing background

 

[deeve007]

And because I'm an impatient bugger and like a kid in a candy store when brewing something new... had to pop one small bottle open of my salted plum gose (with lactose) way too early (5 days after bottling) to see how it was going... and damn this is good!!

Yes, this wasn't the best style + flavour combo to add lactose (an experiment), but even allowing for that, the plum flavour has come through pretty well, just the right amount of subtle saltiness, and a great level of sourness! (I didn't add any more Lacto to the fermenter, luckily, so it just needed more time).

Another one I'll certainly make again, with no lactose, and maybe just a little more plums (though the lactose probably subdued some of that flavour).

 

[fendersrule]

Looks thick and chewy!

@RPh_Guy. Today is the 9th day. I think we're going to do it!

 

[fendersrule]

Here's the post sour vessel. Ever since I had a pre-sour infection, I've been VERY sensitive to that hefe/sock infection smell. I thought I had picked up that smell here. Turns out, it's very likely just the smell of....sour liquid!

Put a sample in the refractometer to confirm...1.061. No infection....that's basically right where I estimated it at. My last "pre-sour" was .020 points lower than OG. That's a sign.

Lid underside....clean as a whistle...no infection. One sign of infection is seeing fragments (lack of scientific word here) all over the inside of the vessel, like it had a minor explosion. My last "pre-sour" had fragments everywhere inside of it.

My girlfriend..."IT SMELLS SOUR!"

It definitely tastes sour. I suppose even if you don't have an infection (all signs point to no for me, I just didn't care for the smell as I'm sensitive to any smells like it), then I suppose you need to expect any sour liquid that's been sitting out to not necessarily smell good.

Siphoned it all in. Left behind what you see.

Also: funny story. When we were souring the peach vessel, the girlfriend was pulling out the bag and noticed green colors from inside the bag. "Oh crap, that's mold!" We were about to dump it...then I said, "hey, do you remember that we used green colored marbles in the fruit bags?"

 

[501irishred]

So I’ve never attempted a sour, but this method sounds too easy not to try! Is there a consensus on a good first recipe? Maybe a basic start to finish recipe to highlight the “good belly” sour goodness, without the wonderful twists that inevitably occur when a homebrewer gazes at the clouds and wonders “what if”.... (salted plumb? )

 

[RPh_Guy]

View attachment 674843

Here's the post sour vessel. Ever since I had a pre-sour infection, I've been VERY sensitive to that hefe/sock infection smell. I thought I had picked up that smell here. Turns out, it's very likely just the smell of....sour liquid!

Put a sample in the refractometer to confirm...1.061. No infection....that's basically right where I estimated it at. My last "pre-sour" was .020 points lower than OG. That's a sign.

Lid underside....clean as a whistle...no infection. One sign of infection is seeing fragments (lack of scientific word here) all over the inside of the vessel, like it had a minor explosion. My last "pre-sour" had fragments everywhere inside of it.

My girlfriend..."IT SMELLS SOUR!"

It definitely tastes sour. I suppose even if you don't have an infection (all signs point to no for me, I just didn't care for the smell as I'm sensitive to any smells like it), then I suppose you need to expect any sour liquid that's been sitting out to not necessarily smell good.

Siphoned it all in. Left behind what you see.

Also: funny story. When we were souring the peach vessel, the girlfriend was pulling out the bag and noticed green colors from inside the bag. "Oh crap, that's mold!" We were about to dump it...then I said, "hey, do you remember that we used green colored marbles in the fruit bags?"

Sounds good! Hopefully the culture will now work on some of the dextrins in the main batch.
Nice photo of the chalk sediment.

I'm not too fond of the Lacto aroma myself either.

Is there a consensus on a good first recipe? Maybe a basic start to finish recipe to highlight the “good belly” sour goodness,

This is a simple recipe for a nice sour tropical pineapple/ mango wheat ale.

70% pale malt
30% white wheat malt
Target OG around 1.055. Mash around 150-155°F for single infusion.
Water: 0-40ppm sulfate, 50-100ppm chloride, 10-30ppm magnesium, 0-60ppm sodium.

Boil 45 minutes (or not)

Pitch WLP644 (or equivalent) and a small amount of GoodBelly together. Ferment around 70°F-75°F.

After it's finished, dry hop with 0.5oz Czech Saaz per 5 gal.

There's plenty of room to modify this to your taste and process. Cheers!

 

[501irishred]

This is a simple recipe for a nice sour tropical pineapple/ mango wheat ale.

70% pale malt
30% white wheat malt
Target OG around 1.055. Mash around 150-155°F for single infusion.
Water: 0-40ppm sulfate, 50-100ppm chloride, 10-30ppm magnesium, 0-60ppm sodium.

Boil 45 minutes (or not)

Pitch WLP644 (or equivalent) and a small amount of GoodBelly together. Ferment around 70°F-75°F.

After it's finished, dry hop with 0.5oz Czech Saaz per 5 gal.

There's plenty of room to modify this to your taste and process. Cheers!

beautiful, thanks! Sounds like a great project this weekend!