Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[deeve007]

Yea, maybe it worked out better that I'm souring with the fruit addition. It helps resolves conflicts because if you soured right off the bat, you'd have to add hops and fruit at the same time which probably isn't ideal.

Why do you feel you would need to add hops at the same time as the fruit?

 

[deeve007]

And sourness has really come through now, so seems like it was just delayed by a couple of days compared to my previous sours, maybe due to the lactose addition? Adding fruits today (though will bottle a couple beforehand, to taste it pre-fruit, as I always do), half onto plums, other half onto peaches, cinnamon, vanilla... looking forward to seeing how they turn out.

 

[fendersrule]

Why do you feel you would need to add hops at the same time as the fruit?

If I had pitched viable bugs at the same time as yeast (instead of expired bugs), then it would be likely that during the fruit additions (3-4 days into fermentation) that it would have already hit a target PH/tart level--that is according to the instructions outlined in this thread. However, it seems like we are both experiencing that is not the case.

Sounds like what I'm going through is exactly what you're going through--it ain't getting sour in 2-3 days of co pitching. That's why I chose to re-pitch new cells yesterday. As long as it eventually gets sour within a 2-3 weeks of aging in the primary, I'm fine. I just was expecting faster results based on this thread.

If you had a PH gauge, I'd be curious as to what your reading is. PH doesn't give away the tartness, but it's still a metric that we could use to compare.

 

[deeve007]

No PH gauge here, so do it on taste (tap from fermenter). The two sours I did previously I just added the hops a couple of days before bottling, and they turned out great, so for the moment will do the same

 

[z-bob]

You don't necessarily need any hops at all.

 

[deeve007]

You don't necessarily need any hops at all.

Indeed. For me it's to help kill any remaining lacto to avoid contamination.

 

[fendersrule]

Did you find with your last sours that it took awhile to sour?

 

[deeve007]

Nope, hence my query this time about the delay... but it seems like the lactose I added in the boil may have had a delaying effect on the sourness, being the only factor I changed compared to my two previous sours.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It seems to me that it's basically already a starter.

I definitely wouldn't consider GoodBelly to be a starter, same as a liquid yeast packet isn't a starter.

Did you rehydrate the new bacteria before adding it?

I just was expecting faster results based on this thread.

It normally is fast when live bacteria are pitched. Your bacteria were dead, and so you essentially had no souring taking place.

Bacteria are living organisms just like yeast and they need to be maintained properly.

If it's not sour enough for you at the end, I can help you make a small (2-4L) super sour batch for blending.

Indeed. For me it's to help kill any remaining lacto to avoid contamination.

I suggest to add hops for several reasons:

1. To limit further souring that may occur.
2. To prevent the development of too much funk/complexity.
3. Flavor.

Of course you may actually want the first 2 things, so hops are entirely optional.

Hops do NOT kill the Lacto. It's the hops in your non-sour beers that prevent souring of those beers (and normal cleaning and sanitation procedures should prevent contamination anyway).

Hope that makes sense.

Nope, hence my query this time about the delay... but it seems like the lactose I added in the boil may have had a delaying effect on the sourness, being the only factor I changed compared to my two previous sours.

Could be that the lactose sweetness reduced the perception of sourness, or could be a lower pitch rate from improper storage of the bacteria.

 

[deeve007]

Hops do NOT kill the Lacto. It's the hops in your non-sour beers that prevent souring of those beers (and normal cleaning and sanitation procedures should prevent contamination anyway).

You wrote: "L. plantarum is extremely hop-sensitive and will not sour your clean beers with hops"

So if not kill, then negates its sourness impact in any beers made with hops.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You wrote: "L. plantarum is extremely hop-sensitive and will not sour your clean beers with hops"

So if not kill, then negates its sourness impact in any beers made with hops.

Right.

 

[fendersrule]

I just opened the capsules and dumped them right in--worked great for my pre-sour a long time ago. I'm going on a exercise run, so I suppose I shouldn't get any Goodbelly--thought it would be interesting to dump that in as well to give it some more complexity, but sounds like it's not needed.

Basically, I'm on a "post-souring" schedule right now (w/ active fermentation by the fruit addition only). So I need to plan for the worst, and it sounds like making a super sour starter is that plan, if it gets down to it. I just need to know WHEN to expect to do something like that.

If there's viable lacto in there right now (we should assume so, with 2x pills from an un-expired brand new container), then should I assume that it will sour, even after primary fermentation is complete, and on what time table? Should I be freaking out now, tomorrow, the next day, or in 7 days? Very related question: What is the rate of PH drop from the post-sour method?

Sunday 7:00pm: Co-pitch (expired bugs), 64-65F wort temp. PH level: 4.25

Monday 4:00pm: Signs of fermentation starting to happen. 65F

Tuesday: Fermentation on full, 66-67F

Wednesday: Fermentation still primarily on full, 66-67F. Checked PH at 2PM @ 3.79. Pitched more bugs (expired).

Thursday: Fermentation slowing, 66-67F. Checked PH at 2PM @ 3.79. Determined bugs were expired. Pasteurized fruit and added fruit and repitched NEW bugs at 3PM.

Friday at 10:30AM: 3.68PH. This PH doesn't FOR SURE mean that Lacto is working though, it could just be the blackberry changing PH level. Taste: low PH, starting to get a little "tangy" at the end but needs far more to go to be considered a sour. Temp: 68F

 

[RPh_Guy]

I would check on it in 5-7 days, and then you can decide if something else needs to be done. I'm confident we could still salvage the batch even if it's not sour enough for your taste at that point.

I just opened the capsules and dumped them right in--worked great for my pre-sour a long time ago.

As cells are rehydrating they have poor control over which substances cross their cell membranes. I'm completely unsure whether there's any negative impact from rehydrating lactobacilli in an alcoholic solution (beer).

FWIW my post-sours develop adequate sourness within a couple days, but my pitch rate is higher because I always use a buffered starter (and therefore the bacteria were rehydrated in wort, not beer). It's only when co-souring that I direct pitch a low cell count.

 

[fendersrule]

Sounds good. Thanks for the info on time frame. That puts me at ease!

 

[fendersrule]

I got a half gallon of goodbelly anyways. It was on sale. 20 billion CFUs per serving. Let me know if you wanted me to do any science otherwise I’ll find some time to drink it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You're welcome to make a small ultra-sour batch/starter just in case:

1.040-1.050 wort, 80% malt, 20% dextrose. No hops, not pre-acidified.
20 g/L calcium carbonate
1-2 g/L yeast nutrient (organic preferred and/or one with vitamins)
5-10 billion cells/L of Lacto
Let that ferment with just the Lacto for maybe a week or more. Keep it warm to speed it up if you can. Swirl it occasionally.

After a while you'll see it bubbling as the calcium carbonate neutralizes the acid.

Using this process the Lacto will create a much higher percentage of acid than normal, and it can be blended to add additional sourness in a larger batch. It would need additional time after blending for the yeast to ferment any remaining sugar in the Lacto-only portion.

If you wanted to actually measure the amount of acid (TA) you would just need a bottle of 0.1 N NaOH and a 10mL syringe.

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks. Would 500 ML be enough to treat 10 gallons if necessary?

Prefer me to use one of my new tablets for pitching, or try the good belly out?

Dang, 17 ounces ain't much! I don't think it's worth adding any minerals, even a little lactic acid to get to appropriate mash PH for this. Just use straight up tap water and use some 2-row that I have. Easy enough.

The only thing I don't have is calcium carbonate. I have pickling lime, but that ain't the same thing. I'll consider getting some at the HBS if I wanted to proceed making a starter. Might as well get a large beaker too. Cover with foil or press-in-seal type paper?

Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Would 500 ML be enough to treat 10 gallons if necessary?

It depends on how sour your main batch gets. If it's not sour at all for some reason, then you'd need maybe up to 2 gallons of the acid wort to sour a full 10-12 gallons, theoretically.

Prefer me to use one of my new tablets for pitching, or try the good belly out?

Umm, the capsules or a mix of both.

Dang, 17 ounces ain't much! I don't think it's worth adding any minerals, even a little lactic acid to get to appropriate mash PH for this. Just use straight up tap water and use some 2-row that I have. Easy enough.

The photo is the starter I used for post-souring 5 US gallons. What we're thinking about doing here is more like blending, which is a little different. That's an old photo too; I'm not currently using that large of a starter. Just wanted to show the bubbling.

Light DME would be fine if you don't want to bother with a small mash. 100g/L DME and 25g/L dextrose.

Cover with foil or press-in-seal type paper?

Foil or airlock. CO2 will need to escape.

 

[fendersrule]

OK. I'll give it until Monday to figure out if we need to do that. For now:

1) Confirmed that my "Peach" carboy is souring at the same rate as my Blackberry. Both just tested at 3.68PH. The damn bag is floating (didn't put enough marbles in it). Oh well, the CO2 blanket should protect it and best not to open that carboy up anymore. I thought about taking the lid off and packing more marbles in it (with star san'd hands of course), but best to probably just leave it alone.

Taste taste tells us that it's a tart, with a very slight sour kick at the end. Like you said, best to let it go for a few more days. It would turn out to be a good tart beer if it was untouched at this point (in the case the tart level does not increase).

 

[fendersrule]

I'm losing some confidence that it is souring. Tested PH today at 3.66, which is in the noise of 3.68 from previous test 2 days ago. The taste is good, clean, tart, but doesn't really have that lacto bite to it that you'd expect.

I don't have a starter flask, but I can get one, unless the volume that I need to make is larger than what a flask can handle. If I'm going to need 2 gallons, then I'd probably just let it sour in a small plastic bucket. Basically, kettle souring with an airlock.

For 2 gallons, and being that I don't want to lower the ABV of my beer, and to be closer to 1.058 OG, if that's OK that would entail needing 2.2 DME and .5lbs dextrose.

If I build everything up to 2 gallons then:
150G calcium carbonate
15G yeast nutrient
37.5-75 Billion cells of Lacto (this would be quite a bit of the tablets that we have + my good belly juice)

Some challenges that I foresee:

1) Because I have to boil the DME and because I can probably do this on the stove top, cooling the liquid from 207F is going to be challenging. Sitting it in an ice-bath is probably the only method I have, unless I actually fire up my brewing equipment for this and use my chiller. Sounds like I should probably do that.

2) My 6.5 gallon fermenters have fruit in them right now + 5 gallons of beer/trub. I'm thinking there's not a lot of space in there to add a gallon in each. Now, I can however rack them to a secondary vessel (off the fruit) and into the super sour liquid. OR, I can remove the fruit bags from them. Which will give me the space necessary. The "remove the fruit" method makes sense because at that time, the fruit would have been in there for 1.5 weeks so it probably isn't doing any good to leave the fruit in longer?

Let me know how to proceed for something in the realm of 3.3-3.4 PH, for science! If I really need 2 gallons, let me know on that too.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm losing some confidence that it is souring. Tested PH today at 3.66, which is in the noise of 3.68 from previous test 2 days ago.

That's a bummer..

For 2 gallons, and being that I don't want to lower the ABV of my beer, and to be closer to 1.058 OG, if that's OK that would entail needing 2.2 DME and .5lbs dextrose.

That's totally fine.

Sitting it in an ice-bath is probably the only method I have

That's what I do for small batches.

The "remove the fruit" method makes sense because at that time, the fruit would have been in there for 1.5 weeks so it probably isn't doing any good to leave the fruit in longer?

I agree.

Let me know how to proceed for something in the realm of 3.3-3.4 PH, for science! If I really need 2 gallons, let me know on that too.

Because the acid wort is buffered, the pH won't be that low even if it has the same amount level of sourness.
I think 2 gallons is reasonable.

 

[fendersrule]

Great.

So far, this experience is basically showing me that lacto does not appear to sour once alcohol is already present. It may not be so much that alcohol is present as much as there are no sugars available to create the lactic acid, and by that time, the yeast has already grown so much that it will out-compete any "bug" you throw in there.

This is why it is much more difficult to "infect" a beer once it's already...beer.

Would you still pre-acidify the 2 gallons that I make to target 4-4.5PH? I think you said no, but I wanted to check. Instructions above seem easy enough.

 

[RPh_Guy]

So far, this experience is basically showing me that lacto does not appear to sour once alcohol is already present.

This isn't true at all. Lacto is perfectly capable of souring an alcoholic beverage.

I'm sorry for the difficulties you've been having with this, but there are explanations for why.
The initial Lacto that was co-pitched was improperly stored, expired, and presumed to be dead.
The second (delayed) pitch was probably too small (I recommend making a buffered starter when post-souring), AND it was not properly rehydrated like I suggested. Rehydrating in alcohol may have killed it. A starter also confirms that the bacteria are alive and active. Right now we don't have any kind of confirmation that there are live bacteria in your beer.

This is why it is much more difficult to "infect" a beer once it's already...beer.

There's some truth to that with regard to most contaminants, but not with regard to Lactobacillus or Pediococcus.

 

[fendersrule]

Would you recommend me lowering the PH at all on the starter, or just keep it at 7 Ph.

I’m not even going to bother with mineral additions.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Calcium carbonate is necessary for buffering; otherwise this won't work. Don't add any acid to it.

 

[fendersrule]

Will do. Untreated tap water she'll be. Thanks for the tips, I'll provide an update tomorrow.

Good Belly has a total of 80 Billion CFU. I plan to pour all 32 Ounces of it in (obviously after wort is cooled to 90F or so). That's basically enough L. Platarum, but I'll throw 4x new capsules in it for good measure.

Since using a 2 gallon bucket for this, I won't be able to see anything. I'll just plan on going to the 10 day mark and keep it on a heat pad.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds good! Make sure it doesn't go over 100°F.

 

[brownni5]

Lacto is perfectly capable of souring an alcoholic beverage.

Right on - I've got lots of examples in my fridge right now. One of which didn't see bugs til it was at 1.004 (from 1.065 or so). That one is probably my best sour to date.

 

[Beer666]

I have been impressed with the Omega labs lacto. It sours at room temperature and seems to store well in the fridge. I also forgot to make a buffered starter and it worked really well post fermentation. Still using the same pack i bought last summer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The OYL Lacto blend contains L. plantarum, which presumably does most of the souring, and it also contains L. brevis, which may be a liability for these methods because it's generally considered to be more hop-tolerant.

 

[fendersrule]

Done. 150G calcium carbonate seemed a lot, but whatever...seemed almost a cup! That's about 5.5Oz or so. Good thing I bought the larger bag.

It's 83F right now. I didn't leave much head space at all in the container. The bottom of the burper is super close to the wort. Assuming that's OK in this case.

Swirl a couple times a day?

I used 2LBs of Pilsen DME, and a little over .5LB of Dextrose. 1.063 for 2 gallons of wort. The 32Oz of Goodbelley that went in there was 1.038 since it doesn't have a lot of sugar (only 18G). Combination OG works out to 1.060 @ 2.23 gallons. Now, this number shouldn't move when I go to recheck it in 7-10 days, right?

The gravity of the 10G beer that's waiting for it is 1.058. Combination OG will be 1.059.5ish.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeah, sounds good. The gravity shouldn't drop more than a few points maybe. I've never had any drop, but I've rarely measured it since yeast contamination would be obvious.

 

[fendersrule]

Looks like it's stabilizing mid 70s on the heat pad in the garage. I could move it in the house and such any maybe hit 80F, but the GF needs it to be in the garage for her plants.

Seems like if it can hold mid 70s, that should be fine and dandy for the next 10 days.

 

[fendersrule]

@RPh_Guy,

Curiosity strikes. So at the end of 10 days, what sort of Ph level should I expect in this thing? Further than 3.2? Assuming it should taste "sweet and very sour."

I'm assuming the point of this is two-fold:

1) To drop the overall PH down by adding a gallon of super sour to lower overall PH level by a tad. More importantly probably is that it will give it the lactic acid taste that it's lacking.

2) To provide a starter that should "get to work" in the original beer to continue to lower it. This means, after 2-3 days of dumping it in, check the PH and then proceed to dry-hop to stop the progress.

 

[RPh_Guy]

@RPh_Guy,

Curiosity strikes. So at the end of 10 days, what sort of Ph level should I expect in this thing? Further than 3.2? Assuming it should taste "sweet and very sour."

I'm assuming the point of this is two-fold:

1) To drop the overall PH down by adding a gallon of super sour to lower overall PH level by a tad. More importantly probably is that it will give it the lactic acid taste that it's lacking.

2) To provide a starter that should "get to work" in the original beer to continue to lower it. This means, after 2-3 days of dumping it in, check the PH and then proceed to dry-hop to stop the progress.

My guess would be around 4.5 for the pH.

This growth medium is based on #7 in this experiment:
https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/evaluate-starter-media-to-propagate-lactobacillus-sp/
L. brevis brought it down to about 4.8 after 7 days at room temp, and I would expect L. plantarum to go a little lower.

If it goes to plan, the lacto-only wort in this case should taste predominantly sour. It will be a good lesson that sour taste does not depend on pH.

You're correct. This starter/blending batch will both increase the sourness and provide a healthy pitch that may work on some of the dextrins in the larger portion. I would taste it after a few days after blending (when yeast fermentation completes) to determine whether additional time may be needed.

Give it a good swirl at least once daily; the calcium carbonate really likes to stick to the bottom. On that note, you'll want to avoid adding too much of the calcium carbonate sediment to your beer when it comes time to transfer.

 

[Miraculix]

In this particular case, the starter is used for lowerig ph and bringing in more acid into the beer, and not for bringing in more mos, if I'm understanding it correctly. Is that right?

If so, wouldn't the buffer be counter productive in this particular case, as it continuously neutralises the acid produced by the mos?

The neutralisation is great for reproduction of the mos, but if we are only after the acid, the acid gets lost on the way?

 

[RPh_Guy]

In this particular case, the starter is used for lowerig ph and bringing in more acid into the beer, and not for bringing in more mos, if I'm understanding it correctly. Is that right?

If so, wouldn't the buffer be counter productive in this particular case, as it continuously neutralises the acid produced by the mos?

The neutralisation is great for reproduction of the mos, but if we are only after the acid, the acid gets lost on the way?

Sorry, what is "mos"? Lactobacilli?

It's a little hard to explain without getting technical with the chemistry. The reaction between calcium carbonate and lactic acid results in the formation of calcium lactate. It's the lactate that's sour. Lactic acid giving its hydrogen atoms to the carbonate doesn't change how sour it tastes.

At 77°F (25°C), calcium lactate is soluble up to 6.7% in water, and a sour beer typically has between 1-2% lactic acid. So if we get maximum acid production in the 1 gallon, we'll at least be in sour beer territory when diluted to 6 gallons. ... And a large healthy lacto culture added to an unhopped beer should produce some additional acidity.

 

[Miraculix]

Mos = Microorganisms

You're sure about the calcium lactate taste? If that's the case, you're obviously right.

It just sounds counterintuitive to me that the salt of the acid still tastes acidic. Quick online search also only showed descriptions stating neutral taste.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The moment something goes into your mouth, your tissue and fluids buffer it -- to around pH 5.5 in the case of an acidic beverage.

We can see by looking at the ionization curve (pKa is about 3.9) that pretty much all the lactic acid in our mouth is in the lactate form. That's what we're actually tasting (regardless of whether it's ionized before it goes into our mouth). ... And that's why TA is regarded as the best measurement for determining acidic taste.

I hope that helps make sense...

 

[Will Smith]

Is there any issues with any yeasts not fermenting at such a low pH or am i good to go ahead with something classic like s05?