Exploring "no chill" brewing

[manticle]

The one thing I could think of would be to wait on your starter. A lot of times I brew at the last minute. If I have no dry yeast then I would want to make a starter. I could make a starter while brewing then pitch 24-48 hours later after the wort cools down.

That's exactly why you no-chill though (or one advantage) - so you can get your starter exactly right. As above, I make real wort starters.

 

[Exbeerienced]

I'm not gonna read a thousand posts, but I want to point out that it's important to ferment this "real wort" starter at a "real fermentation" temperature! A conventional starter is typically fermented at somewhat higher temperatures, making lots of yeast quickly, but also possibly creating funky flavors.

 

[johnodon]

I'm not gonna read a thousand posts, but I want to point out that it's important to ferment this "real wort" starter at a "real fermentation" temperature! A conventional starter is typically fermented at somewhat higher temperatures, making lots of yeast quickly, but also possibly creating funky flavors.

Hmmmm...I never even considered that.

Anyone else wanna chime in?

John

 

[wyzazz]

Hmmmm...I never even considered that.

Anyone else wanna chime in?

John

Exbeerienced is correct, your RWS needs to be done as close to fermentation temps as you can manage. In a "regular" starter you are typically done with all yeast cell growth in 12 hours, a RWS may take a bit longer but typically you are not pitching for a full 24 hours (maybe longer) so I think the lag is acceptable.

FWIW, I do almost all of my starters at around 65F.

 

[johnodon]

Good to know.

I guess will begin putting my starters in my fermentation chamber.

John

 

[stevedasleeve]

I just happened upon this topic, ironically after yesterday's lengthy brew session. I did two 6 gallon batches in a row and decided I'd put them in the carboys and let them chill down in my refrigerator and pitch this morning. Amazingly this small thing took all the stress out of the long brew day. I had been considering this for a while because getting my wort down to pitching temps was a big pain and took so much water using my immersion chiller. This time I took the wort down to 90 f or so - which was pretty fast and easy before putting these in the refrigerator to take them the rest of the way down.

The real point of this for me was sop I could ferment these low - 62 f - but the whole thing may well be a regular part of my brewing process.

 

[wyzazz]

The real point of this for me was sop I could ferment these low - 62 f - but the whole thing may well be a regular part of my brewing process.

I ferment almost all my ales starting at 63F, beginning to ramp up 1.5F every day after day 4 up to around 73F. I leave it sit for 7 days at 73 then start my cold crash.

Of course this depends on the beer I am making, but I find that this works well for most of my House Ale's.

 

[manticle]

Hmmmm...I never even considered that.

Anyone else wanna chime in?

John

Depends on whether you are adding the whole wort as an active starter or fermenting right out to grow yeast cells and just adding the slurry.

Personally I like to use the whole wort and I'd rather let yeast do its job naturally so I ferment my starter wort at ferment temps and pitch at high krausen. I don't agitate it after evidence of fermentation signs are evident.

If you agitate and ferment high to encourage quick growth then you are better off discarding your probably oxidised starter beer and using just the slurry in which case, I would just use DME. No chill gives me the luxury of getting my real wort starter to the point I want it at without needing to rush.

My understanding is that the enzymes produced by yeast when they multiply are specific to the wort they are in. By using a real wort starter (identical to the whole wort to be fermented), you should be helping the yeast on their merry way.

Like many tidbits of information I've gleaned and tried over the years, it seems to work but I've got no conclusive proof that it does.

 

[johnodon]

Brewed BM's Centennial Blonde this morning. It is sitting in the winpak now. I think I am going to wait 2 or 3 weeks before I pitch to this one..just to see.

 

[roylee]

I left wort in a winpak for 3 weeks one time. Beer was fine, but the scum line around the top was hard, dry, and tough to get out. I have a dental mirror to check that part of the interior that can't otherwise be seen, and the oxyclean soak didn't quite do the job. I'd like to find a winpak type container that would take the heat, but with a conical top that'd make it easier to clean and drain. If anyone knows of one I'd appreciate hearing about it.

 

[Exbeerienced]

Do you guys have to worry about the air space above the wort contracting during cool-down and wanting to suck in outside air, or do you always use flexible (i.e., collapsible) containers?

 

[wyzazz]

Do you guys have to worry about the air space above the wort contracting during cool-down and wanting to suck in outside air, or do you always use flexible (i.e., collapsible) containers?

I mentioned something about this before but I'm sure it got lost in the sheer hugeness of this thread. When I "No Chilled" in sanke kegs I used a carboy cap and a Sterile Air Filter because I was afraid of the vacuum collapsing the keg as well as contamination from the outside air.

 

[johnodon]

The Winpaks are quite soft and can take the collapse. There isn't any fear of them cracking.

 

[thughes]

Do you guys have to worry about the air space above the wort contracting during cool-down and wanting to suck in outside air, or do you always use flexible (i.e., collapsible) containers?

I use flexible containers that collapse with the vacuum, this gives me a visual indication that the container is indeed sealed and no external air has entered.

If you see the container starting to swell, it means ugly stuff is happening inside and that batch is a dumper. (I discovered this the hard way when I vented a cube to draw off some wort for a starter.....must have sucked in a nasty).

 

[johnodon]

If you see the container starting to swell, it means ugly stuff is happening inside and that batch is a dumper.

Unless of course you have pitched your yeast.

Sorry...may be an obvious point but I'm sure we don't want new brewers dumping perfectly good batches!

John

 

[thughes]

Unless of course you have pitched your yeast.

Sorry...may be an obvious point but I'm sure we don't want new brewers dumping perfectly good batches!

John

That's what happens when one "assumes".

 

[ghpeel]

If you see the container starting to swell, it means ugly stuff is happening inside and that batch is a dumper. (I discovered this the hard way when I vented a cube to draw off some wort for a starter.....must have sucked in a nasty).

Yeah I've seen that story repeated a LOT. Do not take off the top/lid/cap/whatever is sealing your No Chill vessel of choice until you are 100% ready to pitch yeast right then and there. I'm not sure why, but I guess the intake of air caused by opening the vacuum throws a ton of airborne nasties right into the wort.

 

[14thstreet]

I've got a brew I have in mind for my first go-around at no-chill. The original recipe calls for it's only hop addition of Amarillo at 15 minutes. 3-4oz, depending on AA% which makes for a smooth bitterness calculated around 30 IBU in a 1.050 beer.

According to the charts, this addition for no-chill brewing could be adjusted as a FWH addition. However, it's pretty close to being a "Transfer or hot cube" addition. The latter option could lend itself to the possibility of a much shorter boil, say 15 minutes. Any suggestions/opinions?

 

[LVBen]

I've got a brew I have in mind for my first go-around at no-chill. The original recipe calls for it's only hop addition of Amarillo at 15 minutes. 3-4oz, depending on AA% which makes for a smooth bitterness calculated around 30 IBU in a 1.050 beer.

According to the charts, this addition for no-chill brewing could be adjusted as a FWH addition. However, it's pretty close to being a "Transfer or hot cube" addition. The latter option could lend itself to the possibility of a much shorter boil, say 15 minutes. Any suggestions/opinions?

I think you should try it. I'd love to hear the results of a 15-minute boil with no chill.

 

[thughes]

The only adjustment to hopping schedule I make in deference to nc is: Any additions after 10 minutes I just toss in the no-chill container before draining the wort into it.

That being said, if I was making that recipe I'd just toss all the hops into the cube. I like the smooth bitterness you get from hop-bursting and have taken to moving all my hop additions, with the exception of a very small bittering charge, into the cube. It's surprising the amount of bitterness you do get (brewing software will calculate the IBU's much lower than it actually "tastes") but it is a much smoother bitterness....if that makes any sense. You have to try it to really understand what I am talking about.

 

[manticle]

There's other reasons to do a 60 minute boil besides bittering.

There's a few brewers in AU who have tried adding hops only to the cube, 10 minute IPA style but you'd still want to boil the wort to drive off volatiles, SMM/DMS etc.

 

[johnodon]

The only adjustment to hopping schedule I make in deference to nc is: Any additions after 10 minutes I just toss in the no-chill container before draining the wort into it.

That being said, if I was making that recipe I'd just toss all the hops into the cube. I like the smooth bitterness you get from hop-bursting and have taken to moving all my hop additions, with the exception of a very small bittering charge, into the cube. It's surprising the amount of bitterness you do get (brewing software will calculate the IBU's much lower than it actually "tastes") but it is a much smoother bitterness....if that makes any sense. You have to try it to really understand what I am talking about.

I think I am going to try this. You just described the reason I love Pliny so much...the bitterness is in the flavor and not the bite. It is very mellow for being such a hoppy beer. LOVE IT!!!

John

 

[eulipion2]

The only adjustment to hopping schedule I make in deference to nc is: Any additions after 10 minutes I just toss in the no-chill container before draining the wort into it.

That being said, if I was making that recipe I'd just toss all the hops into the cube. I like the smooth bitterness you get from hop-bursting and have taken to moving all my hop additions, with the exception of a very small bittering charge, into the cube. It's surprising the amount of bitterness you do get (brewing software will calculate the IBU's much lower than it actually "tastes") but it is a much smoother bitterness....if that makes any sense. You have to try it to really understand what I am talking about.

Just a word of warning, this can result in loss of wort. I use an autosiphon and lose about .5 gallon if I've cube hopped. If you either dump through a strainer or keep your hops in a hop bag you should be fine, just know the risks of adding lose hops.

 

[thughes]

Just a word of warning, this can result in loss of wort. I use an autosiphon and lose about .5 gallon if I've cube hopped. If you either dump through a strainer or keep your hops in a hop bag you should be fine, just know the risks of adding lose hops.

A very valid point and something the OP or anyone else using this method must take into consideration.

I know that I will lose .75 gallon to the cube (hops, break, etc) so this loss is already figured into my brewing software and volume calculations. (I usually strain this leftover muck when I clean the cube and try to salvage a bit of wort which I can dilute and use for future starters, yeast experiments, etc.)

 

[madhouseman]

OK, I'm a bit slow. Are you saying I can take any recipe and let's just say leave the 60 min hop addition alone, but just add everything else to the cube? Interesting! I'd love to try that!

 

[brrit]

What about adding top off water at the end of the boil? Last night during my brew, I needed to top off with a little over a gallon of water to reach my 5 gallons. I just added tap water since it was late, but what is the best way to add top off water at the end of the boil?

My fear is that I lowered the wort temperature by adding the tap water when going into the cube? Should I have waited until racking into the fermenter to add the water? Boil water and add it hot into the cube? What are you guys doing?

 

[manticle]

Either add boiling water straight to the cube or boiled cooled water to the fermenter.

 

[GNBrews]

As I understand it, guys are using those Winpak cubes because they're easy to purge air from, and there's no problem with deformation from the negative air pressure on cooling. What if we were to transfer the hot wort to a corny keg, but then purge and pressurize the headspace with CO2? The vacuum formed while cooling would be offset by the CO2 pressure, and you wouldn't have to worry about the corny being crushed.


Couple this with a closed-system pressurized fermention , and this sounds like a neat idea, IMO.

 

[Fozzie]

As I understand it, guys are using those Winpak cubes because they're easy to purge air from, and there's no problem with deformation from the negative air pressure on cooling. What if we were to transfer the hot wort to a corny keg, but then purge and pressurize the headspace with CO2? The vacuum formed while cooling would be offset by the CO2 pressure, and you wouldn't have to worry about the corny being crushed.


Couple this with a closed-system pressurized fermention , and this sounds like a neat idea, IMO.

I'm working on a no chill batch of Edwort's Haus Pale right now after a little absence from brewing for while. I had the same thought, but would you need to figure out a process for oxygenating the wort after it had cooled? Suppose you could just drop an oxygen stone in though.

 

[dubiouschewy]

I'm working on a no chill batch of Edwort's Haus Pale right now after a little absence from brewing for while. I had the same thought, but would you need to figure out a process for oxygenating the wort after it had cooled? Suppose you could just drop an oxygen stone in though.

Bike pump + inline hepa filter + QD. Then shake the hell out of it and bleed excess pressure.