English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[An Ankoù]

I'm from the British Isles am I allowed to sign up?
I've just come back from a trip home and the only regularly available cask ale in Ireland is in Weaterspoon's pubs.
Which is not really taken good care of by the part-time student bar staff.
It can also be that's just a normal keg connected to a handpump.
Tastes sh!te either way.
Starting at 2.05€ a pint, compared to 5 to 8 € elsewhere, the majority of the patrons who drink it don't seem to mind

If you're British you can sign up. The reason others can't is because it triggers a parliamentary debate.
Wetherspoons should be nuked in my opinion. Ghastly organisation. Ghastly beer. Ughh.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

If you're British you can sign up. The reason others can't is because it triggers a parliamentary debate.
Wetherspoons should be nuked in my opinion. Ghastly organisation. Ghastly beer. Ughh.

My Wetherspoons has great cask ales. There's an argument against Spoons on the low pricing basis, making it difficult for other cask pubs to compete, but there's an argument in favour, they are very pro cask ale and provide affordable cask ale all over the UK. Where I live a little of pubs and bars have stopped doing cask. The remaining cask is on n Spoons and a handful of fashionable places at premium prices.

What's your experience of Spoons, and cask availability?

 

[An Ankoù]

My Wetherspoons has great cask ales. There's an argument against Spoons on the low pricing basis, making it difficult for other cask pubs to compete, but there's an argument in favour, they are very pro cask ale and provide affordable cask ale all over the UK. Where I live a little of pubs and bars have stopped doing cask. The remaining cask is on n Spoons and a handful of fashionable places at premium prices.

What's your experience of Spoons, and cask availability?

It's been a while, I have to confess, but the Lord Wimborne and The Moon in the Square were my locals and they were truly horrendous. I wasn't bowled over when I was dragged into Bath's offering by my willful nephew. I think I went onto the coder very quickly and got hammered. But, you can usually find something drinkable in any dive and what really depresses me is the atmosphere in these establishments. Give me a good old Irish wake any time.

Having said that, I haven't visited a Spoons since 2015. Maybe they've changed for the better, but @Shenanigans report doesn't give me much hope.

And having said all that as well, if I were a student with not a couple of pennies to rub together, no doubt I'd frequent such places. When I think of some of the places I used to go to in the 70s, I shudder. But I did start making my own at the age of 16.

 

[An Ankoù]

Just got an email from Hop Alliance that 2024 English hops are in stock.

https://hopalliance.com/collections/english-hops

Some good varieties there. Phoenix is worth a try for its chocolate flavour. I did a bitter at the weekend and the boiling wort smelt of chocolate. I use it in my stout, too.
I must confess that if I saw "chocolate bitter" in a pub, I'd avoid it, but it seems to work with phoenix. Whitbread Goldings and Brambling Cross are good, old school, English ale hops.
I'm disappointed that Harlequin isn't there. It's a very special hop, in my opinion, and I'd like to hear others' opinions, too.

 

[HM-2]

they are very pro cask ale and provide affordable cask ale all over the UK.

IME their treatment of cask ale is pretty variable from site to site, and often pretty poor. Many locations don't shift the throughput of cask to warrant the number of hand pumps they tend to offer, so a lot of what many of their venues serve is pretty stale.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Some good varieties there. Phoenix is worth a try for its chocolate flavour. I did a bitter at the weekend and the boiling wort smelt of chocolate. I use it in my stout, too.
I must confess that if I saw "chocolate bitter" in a pub, I'd avoid it, but it seems to work with phoenix. Whitbread Goldings and Brambling Cross are good, old school, English ale hops.
I'm disappointed that Harlequin isn't there. It's a very special hop, in my opinion, and I'd like to hear others' opinions, too.

They've had a great Harlequin hopped beer in my Spoons recently.

 

[Shenanigans]

IME their treatment of cask ale is pretty variable from site to site, and often pretty poor. Many locations don't shift the throughput of cask to warrant the number of hand pumps they tend to offer, so a lot of what many of their venues serve is pretty stale.

That has been pretty much my experience in Ireland added to the fact nowhere else is offering beers on cask so even an experienced barperson doesn't have much of a clue of how to treat it. Generally, in Dublin people avoid the cask ales at Spoons because they think you get what you pay for, and it can only be bad beer at that price. The people who do drink it accept the bad quality because it's cheap.
I did once have a nice pint of Jaipur there about three years ago, probably because it was fresh but two or three attempts after that were very poor so I've given up on it.

 

[HighlandTap]

Some good varieties there. Phoenix is worth a try for its chocolate flavour. I did a bitter at the weekend and the boiling wort smelt of chocolate. I use it in my stout, too.
I must confess that if I saw "chocolate bitter" in a pub, I'd avoid it, but it seems to work with phoenix. Whitbread Goldings and Brambling Cross are good, old school, English ale hops.
I'm disappointed that Harlequin isn't there. It's a very special hop, in my opinion, and I'd like to hear others' opinions, too.

I just looked at the Hop Alliance site, unfortunately they’re out of First Gold and Bramling Cross at the moment. I’ve had great results with FG. Looks like most other English hops are available. If anyone has used Whitbread Goldings, how different from East Kent are they?

 

[ExpatPete]

I just pulled the last pint of my ESB. It was a MoreBeer kit I received for Christmas. At first I was underwhelmed so I actually did not have any for 6 weeks and just let it condition at 35F/1.7C. When I started pulling from it again the flavor had really mellowed and improved with conditioning. The recipe makes it sound as if it would be hoppy but it was not.

9 lbs 2-Row Brewers Malt (Briess)
8 oz Caramel 40 (Briess)
8 oz Honey Malt (Gambrinus)
4 oz Special Roast Oat Malt (Briess)
1 oz Northern Brewer Hops (60 min)
1 oz EKG (10 min)
1 oz EKG (5 min)​

Question for the Forum: I have this on my list to do again, but this time with all UK grains. Is Golden Promise the best bet for an ESB base malt?

 

[An Ankoù]

I just looked at the Hop Alliance site, unfortunately they’re out of First Gold and Bramling Cross at the moment. I’ve had great results with FG. Looks like most other English hops are available. If anyone has used Whitbread Goldings, how different from East Kent are they?

They're quite different. Some say they're not Golding at all. The flavour is a bit stronger and more full and they're a bit less "refined" than EKG, but that's not to say they're coarse. I like them, but they're not a close substitute. Well worth trying.

 

[balrog]

Question for the Forum: I have this on my list to do again, but this time with all UK grains. Is Golden Promise the best bet for an ESB base malt?

Personal preference, and everyone has different tastes.
I prefer Maris Otter.
If you can find a homebrew store, crunch on some Golden Promise, Maris Otter, Thomas Fawcett Pearl, etc, and figure out if you have a preference.

 

[ExpatPete]

I like Maris Otter, and have brewed with Thomas Fawcett. I actually am going to a brewing supply house in Raleigh, NC this week. I never thought about tasting a few grains side by side. I will give that a try! Thanks!

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Question for the Forum: I have this on my list to do again, but this time with all UK grains. Is Golden Promise the best bet for an ESB base malt?

I don't think there's a definitive answer to that. It's down to personal taste, and I'm not convinced it matters much, if you have crystal and special roast in there with it. Any English pale malt or similar should be fine in my experience.

 

[HighlandTap]

I just pulled the last pint of my ESB. It was a MoreBeer kit I received for Christmas. At first I was underwhelmed so I actually did not have any for 6 weeks and just let it condition at 35F/1.7C. When I started pulling from it again the flavor had really mellowed and improved with conditioning. The recipe makes it sound as if it would be hoppy but it was not.

9 lbs 2-Row Brewers Malt (Briess)
8 oz Caramel 40 (Briess)
8 oz Honey Malt (Gambrinus)
4 oz Special Roast Oat Malt (Briess)
1 oz Northern Brewer Hops (60 min)
1 oz EKG (10 min)
1 oz EKG (5 min)​

Question for the Forum: I have this on my list to do again, but this time with all UK grains. Is Golden Promise the best bet for an ESB base malt?

Golden Promise is a good malt, some of the highest rated UK ales use it. I find it milder than Maris Otter, which is my preference. UK grains are worth going out of your way for. Base malts are richer, crystals have a different character. I’m a bit OCD about all UK products. It’s the genuine flavor I look for. That said, there are some really good pub ales (as American brewpubs like to call them these days) being made in the US, and they’re not all using British ingredients. I think a British yeast is even more important.

 

[HighlandTap]

They're quite different. Some say they're not Golding at all. The flavour is a bit stronger and more full and they're a bit less "refined" than WGV, but that's not to say they're coarse. I like them, but they're not a close substitute. Well worth trying.

I have been following a recipe using Fuggles, Savinjski and Whitbread, and it’s wonderful. But I’ve never used it as a single hop to get the true taste of it. That’s in order for me I suppose. Thanks An Ankoù

 

[An Ankoù]

I have been following a recipe using Fuggles, Savinjski and Whitbread, and it’s wonderful. But I’ve never used it as a single hop to get the true taste of it. That’s in order for me I suppose. Thanks An Ankoù

Correction to my post. I should have said EKG and not WGV, which is the Whitbread variety, of course.

 

[Colindo]

I just looked at the Hop Alliance site, unfortunately they’re out of First Gold and Bramling Cross at the moment. I’ve had great results with FG. Looks like most other English hops are available. If anyone has used Whitbread Goldings, how different from East Kent are they?

To my knowledge WGV is not related to the other Goldings such as EKG. I used it as a single aroma addition several times and it tastes distinctly German to me, in its way of giving a herbal spicyness similar to Hersbrucker and Mittelfrüh. It is neither earthy nor fruity, so quite unlike Fuggles or EKG.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Miraculix @Colindo
Wildly off-topic, but, you know the VW slogan is "Das Auto". Wouldn't the grammatically correct slogan be "Der Auto"?

 

[Colindo]

@Miraculix @Colindo
Wildly off-topic, but, you know the VW slogan is "Das Auto". Wouldn't the grammatically correct slogan be "Der Auto"?

Wildly off-topic indeed, apologies to everyone. In German the automobile is neutral, so "das" is correct.

 

[HighlandTap]

To my knowledge WGV is not related to the other Goldings such as EKG. I used it as a single aroma addition several times and it tastes distinctly German to me, in its way of giving a herbal spicyness similar to Hersbrucker and Mittelfrüh. It is neither earthy nor fruity, so quite unlike Fuggles or EKG.

That’s a great comparison Colindo, and a very useful description of WGV. Some food for thought on how to use them going forward. Thanks for the reply.

 

[monkeymath]

Regarding barley varieties used for malts, my own very limited experience has me wondering whether the variety really is the dominant factor or whether the maltster (and the process and temperatures they use) actually has more of an impact?

For the longest time, Crisp Malt was the only UK malt I could get, and that shaped my idea of some of these malts. Then I found Warminster and found their Maris Otter to be much more intense, with a deeper malty flavour. Tasting them side by side, Crisp's MO was actually closer to Weyermann's Pale Malt.

Like I said, I don't have much experience with these malts, so it's a genuine question rather than a heretic proposition: but isn't it conceivable that the difference between the same variety offered by different maltsters is sometimes greater than that between two varieties? Then maybe recipes should specify a maltster rather than a barley variety.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Regarding barley varieties used for malts, my own very limited experience has me wondering whether the variety really is the dominant factor or whether the maltster (and the process and temperatures they use) actually has more of an impact?

For the longest time, Crisp Malt was the only UK malt I could get, and that shaped my idea of some of these malts. Then I found Warminster and found their Maris Otter to be much more intense, with a deeper malty flavour. Tasting them side by side, Crisp's MO was actually closer to Weyermann's Pale Malt.

Like I said, I don't have much experience with these malts, so it's a genuine question rather than a heretic proposition: but isn't it conceivable that the difference between the same variety offered by different maltsters is sometimes greater than that between two varieties? Then maybe recipes should specify a maltster rather than a barley variety.

My experience is the same, I believe it's more about what the maltster does, and I believe recipes should stipulate the maltster and the lovibond or ebc.

 

[Shenanigans]

Regarding barley varieties used for malts, my own very limited experience has me wondering whether the variety really is the dominant factor or whether the maltster (and the process and temperatures they use) actually has more of an impact?

For the longest time, Crisp Malt was the only UK malt I could get, and that shaped my idea of some of these malts. Then I found Warminster and found their Maris Otter to be much more intense, with a deeper malty flavour. Tasting them side by side, Crisp's MO was actually closer to Weyermann's Pale Malt.

Like I said, I don't have much experience with these malts, so it's a genuine question rather than a heretic proposition: but isn't it conceivable that the difference between the same variety offered by different maltsters is sometimes greater than that between two varieties? Then maybe recipes should specify a maltster rather than a barley variety.

Yes but they should specify both the variety and maltster.
So good luck with any recipe that only says "British Pale Malt"
However, IMO that's only a concern if you want to get exactly the same results, otherwise you are still going to end up with a decent and approximatly similar beer if the recipe is half-way solid.

Above you are referring to base malt but the most extreme difference I have come across is with English Brown Malt.
Most maltster's Brown Malts have a EBC of 120 to 150 but Simpsons is a outlier with an EBC of about 450 EBC, which is more like Coffee Malt.
Using a signiffcant amout of Simpsons when the other was meant could totally change or even ruin a beer.

 

[HM-2]

Then I found Warminster and found their Maris Otter to be much more intense, with a deeper malty flavour. Tasting them side by side, Crisp's MO was actually closer to Weyermann's Pale Malt.

This is probably because Warminster uses a traditional floor malting process for its MO. Whilst overall EBC and such remains pretty similar (IIRC Warminster is kilned a touch darker) the process does IMO result in extra flavour.

That said, the Warminster MO is particularly good stuff. I always get a "roasted hazelnut" note from it.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

How much more expensive is the Warminster stuff compared to other premium but not floormalted brands like Simpsons?

 

[HM-2]

How much more expensive is the Warminster stuff compared to other premium but not floormalted brands like Simpsons?

From The Malt Miller, for a 25kg sack:

Crisp Maris Otter: £41.66
Simpsons Finest Maris Otter: £46.56
Warminster Floor Malted Maris Otter: £49.59

Crisp Heritage No.19 Floor Malt is £46.46.

The answer therefore seems to be "between about 5-15% more expensive", and marginally more expensive than other brands' floor malted offerings.

 

[HighlandTap]

This is probably because Warminster uses a traditional floor malting process for its MO. Whilst overall EBC and such remains pretty similar (IIRC Warminster is kilned a touch darker) the process does IMO result in extra flavour.

That said, the Warminster MO is particularly good stuff. I always get a "roasted hazelnut" note from it.

Much like monkeymath, Crisp 19 was the only Maris Otter I could get locally (and was grateful for it), probably brewed my way through 5 sacks of it. I located some Warminster which I’d never tried, but loved the reviews I read about it. The closest location I could find was Chicago where the bags were 20% less expensive than Crisp. I drove from Detroit area and grabbed 5 sacks, as well as some German Vienna and Munich. Seemed the sensible thing to do. I have yet to brew with it, as I finished up the last of my Crisp, and some Simpsons Golden Promise a couple weeks ago. But I can’t wait to brew my first batch with the Warminster. In light of the tariff trade war looming, I think I made a pretty good purchase. It may become hard to find MO or German malt, in any variety, over here in the states.

It is interesting that the prices from Malt Miller favor the Crisp in pricing. It seems over here in the states, Warminster MO is cheaper… when you can find it.

 

[monkeymath]

Warminster MO is particularly good stuff. I always get a "roasted hazelnut" note from it.

I think it's amazing. I actually use it in rustic lagers as well because its flavour is just wonderful. Don't tell the traditionalists, though

 

[oakbarn]

I like things traditional. I use UK Pale Ale malts for my bitters. I use British Yeasts. I use hops like Target for the bittering. I use Kent Goldings for flavor.

I have had to switch between Pale Ale Malts as Paul's is no longer available. I would suspect that there is more difference by crop year than the brands of British Pale Ale malts.

 

[THC 13]

My experience is the same, I believe it's more about what the maltster does, and I believe recipes should stipulate the maltster and the lovibond or ebc.

I agree. I also like percentage which makes it easy to up (or down) scale the recipe.
• 4850g [10.69 lb] SIMPSONS BEST PALE MALT 2.5 SRM (85.0%)