English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Witherby]

100% This ticks all the boxes on a Burton Ale. But BJCP knows nothing of this beer style, of course

I'm curious what you think of the BJCP provisional Burton Ale guidelines:
https://www.bjcp.org/beer-styles/17a-british-strong-ale-burton-ale/

 

[user 246304]

@Gadjobrinus Looks good! Make sure you use chloride-heavy water. Not sure if that "measured Mash pH: 5.20" is a good sign. Should be around 5.4-5.6.

Thanks much. Yep, check on the Cl water. I don't use a lot of the values in Beersmith so I think that "5.20" was likely a batch holdover from a previous brew of another beer (as a template for setting up this one), where I'd overshot the pH reduction.

 

[user 246304]

I'm not sure how portery it will come out though, that looks more like a beer akin to an Old Peculier or the like.
@Gadjobrinus

Thanks, yep, funny you say that as I have a "Christmas/strong/old ale" folder set up in BS and couldn't find this recipe anywhere - until I looked in my porter folder. Not sure why I have it there, unless I was using the Twelve Days as a starting point based on its sensory description on the Hook Norton website, and not a true clone attempt.

 

[user 246304]

100% This ticks all the boxes on a Burton Ale. But BJCP knows nothing of this beer style, of course

Colindo, curious what you're seeing that gives this a Burton ale class. For one, I'm getting 56 EBC, between the C135-165 and DRC, 11.4% crystal, and invert 3 & 4 at 10%. IBU 41.4, abv 5.4%. I'm getting on the low side IBU for a Burton strong, out of style low on the OG, low side abv, and way darker than the Burton strong (43.3 EBC maximally) at 56 EBC. I know to discount the BJCP style guidelines, but even so, I'm not seeing the comparison. What are you seeing?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'd say that considering the spiritual descendants of Burton ales are the likes of Fuller's old winter, Old Peculier, Riggwelter and the like your recipe definitely ticks the boxes.

 

[user 246304]

I'd say that considering the spiritual descendants of Burton ales are the likes of Fuller's old winter, Old Peculier, Riggwelter and the like your recipe definitely ticks the boxes.

OK, I get you. I'd thought you were talking about the house of Burton pale bitters and ales.

 

[Colindo]

Colindo, curious what you're seeing that gives this a Burton ale class. For one, I'm getting 56 EBC, between the C135-165 and DRC, 11.4% crystal, and invert 3 & 4 at 10%. IBU 41.4, abv 5.4%. I'm getting on the low side IBU for a Burton strong, out of style low on the OG, low side abv, and way darker than the Burton strong (43.3 EBC maximally) at 56 EBC. I know to discount the BJCP style guidelines, but even so, I'm not seeing the comparison. What are you seeing?

Burton Ale is not a pale ale. It turned dark at the same time as mild ale at the end of the 19th century. The last version that was still prominent in the 50s featured strong dark fruit flavours and had 5-6% ABV. So it all ticks the boxes. Especially if you combine it with an increased final gravity, since it was generally a sweet beer.

@Witherby Nice find! I had only checked the 2021 guidelines. Looks pretty solid to me, with most of the details pinned down. I would have mentioned that among the characteristic ingredients are also molasses and high-dextrin glucose syrup, but I guess this is less known.
22 SRM is pretty pale, but the BJCP colour scale is generally weird, trying to make fit the old 90s formulas for colour where even the darkest Guinness does not go above 80 EBC (even though it measures at 160). I would brew a Burton ale at around 50-60 EBC, so 25-30 SRM.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I had this this cask Burton ale last week, brewed by Thornbridge in collaboration with Kernel on the Burton Union set they acquired earlier this year from Marston's. They took advice from Ron P and based It on a 1922/23 Courage KKK recipe. It was pretty wicked. I had two to make sure it wasn't a fluke.

https://store.thekernelbrewery.com/...ridge-brewery-x-the-kernel-brewery-burton-ale

 

[corncob]

Burton Ale is not a pale ale. It turned dark at the same time as mild ale at the end of the 19th century. The last version that was still prominent in the 50s featured strong dark fruit flavours and had 5-6% ABV. So it all ticks the boxes. Especially if you combine it with an increased final gravity, since it was generally a sweet beer.

@Witherby Nice find! I had only checked the 2021 guidelines. Looks pretty solid to me, with most of the details pinned down. I would have mentioned that among the characteristic ingredients are also molasses and high-dextrin glucose syrup, but I guess this is less known.
22 SRM is pretty pale, but the BJCP colour scale is generally weird, trying to make fit the old 90s formulas for colour where even the darkest Guinness does not go above 80 EBC (even though it measures at 160). I would brew a Burton ale at around 50-60 EBC, so 25-30 SRM.

How much, if any, roast would be in a Burton ale from this period?

 

[ba-brewer]

I brewed the 1937 version a few years back that turned out nice. I used WLP030 and got an attenuation in the low 70s for an ABV in the low 7s which seems inline with the version that was brewed in 2011 from the article.
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2015/10/lets-brew-wednesday-1937-courage-kkk.html

 

[Colindo]

How much, if any, roast would be in a Burton ale from this period?

I don't think there ever was roast in a Burton Ale. Just like mild ale up to the 60s it was all coloured with sugars.

@duncan_disorderly Thornbridge seems to be doing some amazing beers. I must try to find them during my next UK visit. From what I understand they bought the Burton Union sets from Marston's, so that will be the ultimate authentic Burton Ale. Even better to hear they took advice from Ron. I wonder where they got the invert no 3 from, since two years ago Henry Kirk from Gale's said they could only use No 1 in their Prize Old Ale because Ragus does not sell less than a ton (1000 kg) of the darker ones.

 

[Colindo]

I brewed the 1937 version a few years back that turned out nice. I used WLP030 and got an attenuation in the low 70s for an ABV in the low 7s which seems inline with the version that was brewed in 2011 from the article.
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2015/10/lets-brew-wednesday-1937-courage-kkk.html

This one seems to be from the right year: https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2013/11/lets-brew-wednesday-1923-courage-kkk.html
Haven't seen WLP030 anywhere for a long time. Is it the same as WY1275, or WY1882?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Colindo
Wouldn't surprise me if they made their own invert.
On the milds and burtons and roasted malt, the common way of colouring was various caramels, but if you look in the recipes in the books strong! And mild!, you can see that in burtons a few percent of black or chocolate could occasionallybe included in the grist, so it would not be wrong to do it.
Milds, especially some northern breweries "best mild" could often have a bit of roast, not more than max 5% though, see Lee's and Boddington's milds for example. The main colour agent was dark invert and caramel though.

 

[Colindo]

On the milds and burtons and roasted malt, the common way of colouring was various caramels, but if you look in the recipes in the books strong! And mild!, you can see that in burtons a few percent of black or chocolate could occasionallybe included in the grist, so it would not be wrong to do it.
Milds, especially some northern breweries "best mild" could often have a bit of roast, not more than max 5% though, see Lee's and Boddington's milds for example. The main colour agent was dark invert and caramel though.

You're right, the 1923 Courage recipe also has a bit of black malt. But not in an amount that would be noticeable in flavour. I have the MIld! book somewhere, will have a look.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I toasted the Imperial malt that is to be used for my coming stout.
Seems to have turned out good, it had deeper flavour and a bit of that sort of nutty and biscuity flavour of amber but without the sharp burnt flavour of modern amber.

 

[Miraculix]

I have two people inside of me, one that wants to slowly stop drinking and brewing and the other one wants to buy 25kg of Imperial malt .

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I have two people inside of me, one that wants to slowly stop drinking and brewing and the other one wants to buy 25kg of Imperial malt .

Yeah I've had like 3 pints the last 2 weeks.
But that's because I managed to stress myself into an acute gastritis since I started my university studies...

Doing home renovations, studying and being a life long blue collar worker who barely finished high school and really has no experience at all of more serious school stuff is daunting. Then throw in ADHD and me thinking "I don't need to do weekly schedules and a daily task list to get anything done"

 

[Northern_Brewer]

100% This ticks all the boxes on a Burton Ale. But BJCP knows nothing of this beer style, of course

@Witherby Nice find! I had only checked the 2021 guidelines. Looks pretty solid to me, with most of the details pinned down. I would have mentioned that among the characteristic ingredients are also molasses and high-dextrin glucose syrup, but I guess this is less known.

They've messed around with it, they introduced it as a provisional style along with Catharina Sour, NZ Pilsner and NEIPA in 2018, but seem to now take the view that the main guidelines should be for beer as it is today (with historical beers lumped into 27), and Burton ales have disappeared/merged into modern barleywines and the winter-warmer end of strong bitters. I'm OK with that, it fits the European tradition of not sweating about styles so much.

From what I understand they bought the Burton Union sets from Marston's, so that will be the ultimate authentic Burton Ale.

They acquired (not sure how much money changed hands, they're a huge ongoing cost liability) part of a set not all of them. Epochal also took some.

Except Burton ales predate unions - unions are first recorded in their modern form in the 1860s, and their predecessors had emerged in the early 1800s, whereas Burton ale in its original form effectively died in 1822 when Russia slapped big tariffs on imported beer. Allsopp then reformulated it as a hoppier, less sweet beer for the British palate.

This is a nice history of the unions :
http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/129/Burton unions.pdf

Even better to hear they took advice from Ron. I wonder where they got the invert no 3 from, since two years ago Henry Kirk from Gale's said they could only use No 1 in their Prize Old Ale because Ragus does not sell less than a ton (1000 kg) of the darker ones.

One would have thought that it would work for Ragus to do a pre-order-only "vault" release of #3 in August or so with min order of 50kg say, specifically for the Christmas market. If anyone at Ragus is listening...? <g>

I had this this cask Burton ale last week, brewed by Thornbridge in collaboration with Kernel on the Burton Union set they acquired earlier this year from Marston's. They took advice from Ron P and based It on a 1922/23 Courage KKK recipe.

Sadly I know exactly where you are, my dad used to work around the corner in King St *many* years ago, when that area was a lot less fancy than it is now! Sadly I keep missing the Thornbridge union beers, one day...

 

[Colindo]

One would have thought that it would work for Ragus to do a pre-order-only "vault" release of #3 in August or so with min order of 50kg say, specifically for the Christmas market. If anyone at Ragus is listening...? <g>

That would make brewing with invert so much more fun. And breweries would certainly have less issues rediscovering it.

Thanks also for the other details. I was looking for more information on Burton Unions, so the link is much appreciated.

By the way, from what I understood before I thought all those beer cleansing systems were supposed to get rid of the surplus of yeast, because that creates what is called "yeast bite", but then I recently realised many breweries in Germany skim the brown yeast off their barm mid-fermentation. Could it be that it is that brown yeast (hop resins etc) that British brewers tried to get rid off all that time ago? I never skimmed during fermentation and read previously in some German texts that it is not necessary, but am now curious if anyone has any hard facts or even scientific insight into this.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

@duncan_disorderly Thornbridge seems to be doing some amazing beers. I must try to find them during my next UK visit. From what I understand they bought the Burton Union sets from Marston's, so that will be the ultimate authentic Burton Ale. Even better to hear they took advice from Ron. I wonder where they got the invert no 3 from, since two years ago Henry Kirk from Gale's said they could only use No 1 in their Prize Old Ale because Ragus does not sell less than a ton (1000 kg) of the darker ones.

The Union set was donated to Thornbridge by Marston's when they closed their remaining sets down earlier this year, and they also helped to install it and providing training in how to use it. A Scottish brewery also got one. These arrangements were brokered by Garrett Oliver of Brooklyn Brewery, who has relationships with Carlsberg, who bought out Marston's, and with Thornbridge. The cask version is 5.5% but they have bottled some at 7.2%. I don't know how they came about the invert. They probably had to make it themselves.

https://www.petebrown.net/2024/05/06/thornbridge-and-garrett-oliver-save-the-famous-burton-unions/

The barman who served me the Burton Ale told me that the English IPA they brew on the union set is excellent, it's called Union IPA. I'll keep my eye out for that one. The same bar is serving a cask of Thomas Hardy Ale this Thursday, I'm hoping to get down there for that too.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Sadly I know exactly where you are, my dad used to work around the corner in King St *many* years ago, when that area was a lot less fancy than it is now! Sadly I keep missing the Thornbridge union beers, one day...

You're not too far from source, it's worth the effort. The bar above I can cycle to in 15 minutes. Pretty handy.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

By the way, from what I understood before I thought all those beer cleansing systems were supposed to get rid of the surplus of yeast, because that creates what is called "yeast bite", but then I recently realised many breweries in Germany skim the brown yeast off their barm mid-fermentation. Could it be that it is that brown yeast (hop resins etc) that British brewers tried to get rid off all that time ago?

My understanding is that it's another case of what is now revered heritage that originated in accountants trying to cut costs, and avoid paying people to skim yeast like the inefficient Germans. It was also a response to the challenges of industrialisation, the sheer scale of UK brewing in the 19th century created its own problems at a practical level. And something that people don't tend to talk about but I suspect was quite important - it was a response to the particular demands of Burton yeast. I think it's no coincidence that proto-unions emerged as they were starting to ramp up exports to India etc where they wanted to maximise attenuation in the brewery to avoid barrel bombs in the tropics. To get that attenuation they seem to have ended up with saison-type yeasts that don't flocculate that well (even today Marston use a different strain for cask conditioning) so needed special attention in yeast management, and generous aeration like you get in unions seems to restrain the phenols of strains like WLP037.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Apparently the union set was donated but the installation cost £30,000.

 

[ba-brewer]

This one seems to be from the right year: https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2013/11/lets-brew-wednesday-1923-courage-kkk.html
Haven't seen WLP030 anywhere for a long time. Is it the same as WY1275, or WY1882?

I picked it during one of the vault purges and keep it alive for a while, I have not used those two yeast to comment. To be honest WLP030 was not my favorite as it was fairly clean in best bitter gravities and a little inconsistent with attenuation for me, but in the KKK it had more character and produced more fruit esters.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Got a question for people using gelatin, I recall I've seen @Witherby talking about his use of it.
I've had some issues with chill haze my last few batches, despite using karragenan for the last ~15 min of the boil.
I prime my kegs to about 2vol co2 and let them sit 2 weeks at room temp then about 1.5-2 weeks in the ~11c fridge before I start the keg, to get a bit more cask like feel to it.

Would it be possible to just add a bit of gelatin with the priming sugar solution i boil shortly and then let it take care of haze when I put the keg in the fridge or do I need to add it at the same time I put the kegs in the fridge?

 

[Miraculix]

Got a question for people using gelatin, I recall I've seen @Witherby talking about his use of it.
I've had some issues with chill haze my last few batches, despite using karragenan for the last ~15 min of the boil.
I prime my kegs to about 2vol co2 and let them sit 2 weeks at room temp then about 1.5-2 weeks in the ~11c fridge before I start the keg, to get a bit more cask like feel to it.

Would it be possible to just add a bit of gelatin with the priming sugar solution i boil shortly and then let it take care of haze when I put the keg in the fridge or do I need to add it at the same time I put the kegs in the fridge?

I would be scared that the gelatin coagulates and with it the priming sugar, making it unavailable to the yeast.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Yeah it seems like a bit of a hassle to use...

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah it seems like a bit of a hassle to use...

It's actually pretty easy to use, just don't mix it with the priming sugar .

 

[corncob]

I add priming sugar and gelatine to every keg I fill and have never had a bad interaction between the two. I bloom the gelatine (half an envelope) in a cup of cold water in the microwave for 15min, then hit it with a few bursts and stir with my thermometer to get it just up to 155 to pasturize. It goes in with the beer, still warm, right on top of granulated sugar.

I don't do a closed transfer, but I fill quickly and purge the headspace a few times. I don't get any noticeable oxidation, but the leg only sits for 2 weeks at room temp, then 3 or so on the gas. I don't brew neipas. YMMV

Unless the beer is being transferred at serving temperature, this won't take the chill haze out. I don't have a good way to get the beer down to serving temp in the fermenter, so I have tried a few other things. The old method usually works petty well, but it adds time: once the keg is cold, roll/tip/shake to get the gelatine off the bottom and mixed back in, then let it settle for a few days.

Done this way, when the keg kicks, there's less than a pint of sludge in the bottom.

 

[DuncB]

Got a question for people using gelatin, I recall I've seen @Witherby talking about his use of it.
I've had some issues with chill haze my last few batches, despite using karragenan for the last ~15 min of the boil.
I prime my kegs to about 2vol co2 and let them sit 2 weeks at room temp then about 1.5-2 weeks in the ~11c fridge before I start the keg, to get a bit more cask like feel to it.

Would it be possible to just add a bit of gelatin with the priming sugar solution i boil shortly and then let it take care of haze when I put the keg in the fridge or do I need to add it at the same time I put the kegs in the fridge?

2 ml of clarity ferm or an equivalent of brewers clarex. Bonus reduction of gluten to next to nothing.
I still use SuperF and kettle finings.