English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[McMullan]

The shape isn’t that important. You see Yorkshire rounds in some modern traditional breweries. And mines round rather than square too. I suspect it was just easier to make square Yorkshire squares, especially in stone, at some point in history, to occupy square brewery buildings. Equally, there’s no reason why we can’t use a single round FV as a standard square. Especially at home-brew scale.

The more vigorous rousing achieved using a Yorkshire square/round is more to do with breaking up the considerable volume of flocculant yeast on the bottom of the yeast trough (around the man or yeast hole, which projects up a little from the base) and washing it back into the FV below. The spraying wort merely channels a cavity through a small area of the yeast head foaming on top. Not all standard squares have ‘fishtails’ for spraying wort either. Some won’t recirculate wort at all. It depends on the yeast strain. Some top-cropping English strains don’t respond well, with the yeast head collapsing when sprayed. Ideally, it should grow and stabilise when sprayed. That’s what true Yorkshire strains do. Not sure why, but I suspect it has something to do with how the yeast cell wall interacts with evolving CO2, clinging on to it long enough to hitch a ride out of the wort and escaping into the yeast trough.

 

[balrog]

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The shape isn’t that important. You see Yorkshire rounds in some modern traditional breweries. And mines round rather than square too. I suspect it was just easier to make square Yorkshire squares, especially in stone, at some point in history, to occupy square brewery buildings. Equally, there’s no reason why we can’t use a single round FV as a standard square. Especially at home-brew scale.

The more vigorous rousing achieved using a Yorkshire square/round is more to do with breaking up the considerable volume of flocculant yeast on the bottom of the yeast trough (around the man or yeast hole, which projects up a little from the base) and washing it back into the FV below. The spraying wort merely channels a cavity through a small area of the yeast head foaming on top. Not all standard squares have ‘fishtails’ for spraying wort either. Some won’t recirculate wort at all. It depends on the yeast strain. Some top-cropping English strains don’t respond well, with the yeast head collapsing when sprayed. Ideally, it should grow and stabilise when sprayed. That’s what true Yorkshire strains do. Not sure why, but I suspect it has something to do with how the yeast cell wall interacts with evolving CO2, clinging on to it long enough to hitch a ride out of the wort and escaping into the yeast trough.

Excellent. Thanks again.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@McMullan so the key is the rouse the yorkshire yeast multiple times per 24 hour period. It's not about aeration, although the rousing aerates to a small degree. Do I have this correct?

So, does this mean in theory on the homebrew scale, one can just gently stir the yeast say 3-4x/day to rouse it, and that should get at least part of the way to a Yorkie brew?

 

[McMullan]

so the key is the rouse the yorkshire yeast multiple times per 24 hour period. It's not about aeration, although the rousing aerates to a small degree. Do I have this correct?

Yes, but there is no to insignificant aeration, none detectable in terms of effect. If the procedure is performed correctly, the wort gets sprayed through a blanket of CO2, not air. I have tested it in a closed system (under an airlock) and observed a comparable fermentation and comparable beer. Aeration serves no purpose here. It’s a myth, imo.

So, does this mean in theory on the homebrew scale, one can just gently stir the yeast say 3-4x/day to rouse it, and that should get at least part of the way to a Yorkie brew?

In theory, that’s all some English top-cropping yeast strains need, but if using a genuine Yorkshire square strain, it won’t be enough to produce a comparable beer, ime. You’ll likely get a perfectly fine beer, if all other factors of good brewing practice are covered, but it won’t be the same. There’s a common saying that “there’s more than one way to skin a cat”, but it really depends how you prefer your skinned cats. There are lots of ways to make beer, but not when we drill down to specific regional styles.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Yes, but there is no to insignificant aeration, none detectable in terms of effect. If the procedure is performed correctly, the wort gets sprayed through a blanket of CO2, not air. I have tested it in a closed system (under an airlock) and observed a comparable fermentation and comparable beer. Aeration serves no purpose here. It’s a myth, imo.

Then I've been doing it wrong. I will lift the barm up and drop it from about 10" or so high, over and over for a few minutes; but more, I will agitate the hell out of it all with pretty vigorous stirring designed to drive the barm back down into the wort, but also, I'm sure, to get air into the yeast all the way through peak fermentation. Think scrambling eggs with a fork, before cooking them - you kind of maintain a constant ribbon of egg, while foaming it to some extent with air whipped into them (well, the latter not really, but that's another story. Most people "froth.").

but if using a genuine Yorkshire square strain, it won’t be enough to produce a comparable beer, ime.

Hmm...given this info, unclear now exactly what the hand technique should be.

 

[Miraculix]

Then I've been doing it wrong. I will lift the barm up and drop it from about 10" or so high, over and over for a few minutes; but more, I will agitate the hell out of it all with pretty vigorous stirring designed to drive the barm back down into the wort, but also, I'm sure, to get air into the yeast all the way through peak fermentation. Think scrambling eggs with a fork, before cooking them - you kind of maintain a constant ribbon of egg, while foaming it to some extent with air whipped into them (well, the latter not really, but that's another story. Most people "froth.").



Hmm...given this info, unclear now exactly what the hand technique should be.

Wouldn't a magnetic stirrer be a possibility if it's all about the agitation and not about the aeration?

 

[McMullan]

Wouldn't a magnetic stirrer be a possibility

The thought crossed my mind at one time, but no, it’s so wrong. Think I just wanted to play with one of these:

 

[Shenanigans]

I need to read through the last few posts again.
Maybe I should just relax and have a have a home brew but I didn't realize what I was getting myself into by buying a pack of 1469 to try a Landlord clone.

I'll be fermenting in a normal 33l plastic bucket.
I do have a big SS spoon and a huge industrial sized whisk.
So I should be fine
Don't want to oxidize the hell out my beer by overdoing it though.
So need to know exactly at what stage to stop.

 

[Miraculix]

The thought crossed my mind at one time, but no, it’s so wrong. Think I just wanted to play with one of these:

Mate, honestly, there should be metallic stars in everyone's beer. It's a stir bar staple.

 

[balrog]

Mate, honestly, there should be metallic stars in everyone's beer. It's a stir bar staple.

Sternschlager rather than goldschlager?

 

[McMullan]

I need to read through the last few posts again.
Maybe I should just relax and have a have a home brew but I didn't realize what I was getting myself into by buying a pack of 1469 to try a Landlord clone.

I'll be fermenting in a normal 33l plastic bucket.
I do have a big SS spoon and a huge industrial sized whisk.
So I should be fine
Don't want to oxidize the hell out my beer by overdoing it though.
So need to know exactly at what stage to stop.

I wouldn’t worry too much. WY1469 is pretty forgiving. I’m not entirely convinced it’s even a true Yorkshire square strain, to be honest. Maybe it lost something on its travels. Nice, though.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@Shenanigans Relax, don't worry and have a homebrew!

West Yorkie is a pretty great and easy yeast and so is the equivalent WLP Essex Ale yeast.

On the other hand, WLP037 Yorkshire Square yeast is the finicky one that totally kicked my ass. Made me realize that some strains are in the vault because they are a total pain to work with.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I wouldn’t worry too much. WY1469 is pretty forgiving. I’m not entirely convinced it’s even a true Yorkshire square strain, to be honest. Maybe it lost something on its travels. Nice, though.

Sorry to be a bit thick, but could you suggest the better way to hand-rouse? I'm piqued by your notion that the fan recirc comes in under a CO2 blanket...I'd always thought they were aerating the hell out of the yeast all the way through peak fermentation. Just lift the barm from below and ladle it back in from a few inches up, few minutes, nothing more violent?

 

[McMullan]

Sorry to be a bit thick, but could you suggest the better way to hand-rouse? I'm piqued by your notion that the fan recirc comes in under a CO2 blanket...I'd always thought they were aerating the hell out of the yeast all the way through peak fermentation. Just lift the barm from below and ladle it back in from a few inches up, few minutes, nothing more violent?

A ladle is good for stirring and washing some of the yeast cap back in, but you probably need a longer spoon to rouse the yeast from the bottom of the FV more. Obviously, in a single vessel (without a yeast trough) considerably more yeast settle on the bottom of the FV vs the double vessel Yorkshire square, which has two bottoms, FV + yeast trough.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

A ladle is good for stirring and washing some of the yeast cap back in, but you probably need a longer spoon to rouse the yeast from the bottom of the FV more. Obviously, in a single vessel (without a yeast trough) considerably more yeast settle on the bottom of the FV vs the double vessel Yorkshire square, which has two bottoms, FV + yeast trough.

Great. Thanks.

 

[Shenanigans]

Good to hear 1469 is not so difficult

 

[McMullan]

It is just a bit paler. Think of it as MO pilsner.

And it actually makes a very nice English pilsner, loaded with Goldings hops.

 

[Shenanigans]

And it actually makes a very nice English pilsner, loaded with Goldings hops.

Nice I just ordered 10Kg of it.
Also 10kg of this:

https://www.minchmalt.ie/product/lager-malt-2/
Grain grown a few miles away from where I grew up.
Some of the most fertile soil in the whole of Ireland with views of the Irish Sea

I plan on using both in some IPAs instead of the 2-Row that is normally in clone recipes from the US but I might keep some for an English style beer.
I want to save my Dutch/Belgian pils malt for Belgian-style beers.

 

[McMullan]

Nice I just ordered 10Kg of it.
Also 10kg of this:

https://www.minchmalt.ie/product/lager-malt-2/
Grain grown a few miles away from where I grew up.
Some of the most fertile soil in the whole of Ireland with views of the Irish Sea

I plan on using both in some IPAs instead of the 2-Row that is normally in clone recipes from the US but I might keep some for an English style beer.
I want to save my Dutch/Belgian pils malt for Belgian-style beers.

This might be of some interest then.

 

[Brewskey]

Strong Bitter brewed on 12/1. This was my first time brewing with First Gold and it's pretty nice with the marmalade flavors. Does anyone know where to find some in the US? I've been looking, but not having any luck.

 

[tracer bullet]

https://hopalliance.com/products/fi...4&_sid=a51d2a12c&_ss=r&variant=40101711708294
I got mine here. Sold out but says more are coming.

 

[An Ankoù]

Nice I just ordered 10Kg of it.
Also 10kg of this:

https://www.minchmalt.ie/product/lager-malt-2/
Grain grown a few miles away from where I grew up.
Some of the most fertile soil in the whole of Ireland with views of the Irish Sea

I plan on using both in some IPAs instead of the 2-Row that is normally in clone recipes from the US but I might keep some for an English style beer.
I want to save my Dutch/Belgian pils malt for Belgian-style beers.

Hook head lager malt is lovely stuff and gives me at least 10% (probably nearer 15%) more extraction than any of the Pilsner malts I use. Nice flavour, too. The worst for extract, at least in recent times, is Castle 2-RW. So a recipe made for one and using the other can be quite a long way out on the OGs.

EDIT.
I see that HBC have got 25% off all their malts. Just ordered a sack for £30 and a few other bits and pieces. the delivery to France is great, too at £12.95 for a full 30Kg.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Strong Bitter brewed on 12/1. This was my first time brewing with First Gold and it's pretty nice with the marmalade flavors. Does anyone know where to find some in the US? I've been looking, but not having any luck.
View attachment 838770

Beautiful bitter.

Not US, but Northwest Hop Farms out of Canada is great. I bought a pound from them and will work with them again, regularly.

I'm pretty mad for First Gold.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

And it actually makes a very nice English pilsner, loaded with Goldings hops.

What yeast do you use?

 

[Brewskey]

Beautiful bitter.

Not US, but Northwest Hop Farms out of Canada is great. I bought a pound from them and will work with them again, regularly.

I'm pretty mad for First Gold.

Thank you sir. Have you brewed with the hops from NW yet? I looked into buying from them but I saw some not so great reviews unfortunately.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thank you sir. Have you brewed with the hops from NW yet? I looked into buying from them but I saw some not so great reviews unfortunately.

Yes - so far, so good. Where did you see the reviews, I'd love to read them. My only complaint, and it's not really a complaint in that I simply choose not to buy them - are that some hops are from 2018 and in addition, they are sold for the same price. But no complaints really.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thank you sir. Have you brewed with the hops from NW yet? I looked into buying from them but I saw some not so great reviews unfortunately.

Uhh.....whoa. And whoa again! .... And whoa again.

 

[Brewskey]

Uhh.....whoa. And whoa again! .... And whoa again.

Right. Fortunately, most of the bad stuff I've seen is rather old, but it was still enough to keep me from ordering from him. Hopefully things are better now. And, if you feel good about the First Gold you got from him I'd be willing to give him a try.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Right. Fortunately, most of the bad stuff I've seen is rather old, but it was still enough to keep me from ordering from him. Hopefully things are better now. And, if you feel good about the First Gold you got from him I'd be willing to give him a try.

I had no idea. Yep, the qualities I'm looking for are there. Unless I'm blinkered badly by confirmation bias!

 

[Shenanigans]

This might be of some interest then.

Cant see it, says it has timed out.

 

[McMullan]

Cant see it, says it has timed out.

Try this

https://academic.oup.com/femsyr/article/22/1/foac053/6874782?login=false

 

[Shenanigans]

Hook head lager malt is lovely stuff and gives me at least 10% (probably nearer 15%) more extraction than any of the Pilsner malts I use. Nice flavour, too. The worst for extract, at least in recent times, is Castle 2-RW. So a recipe made for one and using the other can be quite a long way out on the OGs.

EDIT.
I see that HBC have got 25% off all their malts. Just ordered a sack for £30 and a few other bits and pieces. the delivery to France is great, too at £12.95 for a full 30Kg.

Nice, I have already weight out the grains for 2 IPAs including that malt.
I also took advantage of the 25% off at HBC - postage is 18 euro to Germany.

You do know there is a .ie and .co.uk version of the website?
The .ie one has the prices in Euros; it used to work out slightly cheaper but haven't compared in years as I only use the .ie site.


Edit: just checked now with a few example products and it looks like they are doing anything form 0.9 to 0.95 exchange rate depending on the product but the current exchange rate is 0.86 so using the .ie site you can save about 10% on some products.
Basically everything is cheaper on the .ie site

 

[Shenanigans]

Try this

https://academic.oup.com/femsyr/article/22/1/foac053/6874782?login=false

Aha, OK, thanks!

 

[An Ankoù]

Strong Bitter brewed on 12/1. This was my first time brewing with First Gold and it's pretty nice with the marmalade flavors. Does anyone know where to find some in the US? I've been looking, but not having any luck.
View attachment 838770

Hmmm. I'm two minds about that one. On the one hand, it looks gorgeous. I can almost taste it from here. But on the other hand it's a desperately short measure! I think I'd have to raise an eyebrow in the general direction of the bar-tender!

 

[Brewskey]

Hmmm. I'm two minds about that one. On the one hand, it looks gorgeous. I can almost taste it from here. But on the other hand it's a desperately short measure! I think I'd have to raise an eyebrow in the general direction of the bar-tender!

Thank you! I'm stuck with 12oz bottles, maybe I'll open 2 next time.

 

[An Ankoù]

Nice, I have already weight out the grains for 2 IPAs including that malt.
I also took advantage of the 25% off at HBC - postage is 18 euro to Germany.

You do know there is a .ie and .co.uk version of the website?
The .ie one has the prices in Euros; it used to work out slightly cheaper but haven't compared in years as I use the .ie site.

I do, and you're right. But it depends on the exchange rate. I get my income (not a lot, I hasten to add) in both GBP and EUR so I choose whichever is the more advantageous. I think I might have actually saved 99 centimes on this deal.

 

[An Ankoù]

Thank you! I'm stuck with 12oz bottles, maybe I'll open 2 next time.

Hey, I was only joking. I like a bit of headspace too, for a nice head and some aroma to develop. ( I prefer a hefeweizen glass for most beers including bitter). Unless, I'm paying for a full glass, of course.

 

[Miraculix]

Try this

https://academic.oup.com/femsyr/article/22/1/foac053/6874782?login=false

Cool! German beer is in reality nothing but Tibetan Chang!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Hmmm. I'm two minds about that one. On the one hand, it looks gorgeous. I can almost taste it from here. But on the other hand it's a desperately short measure! I think I'd have to raise an eyebrow in the general direction of the bar-tender!

No kidding. My own strong bitter, opened tonight. Also with First Gold. And same bartender. He's SO fired.