English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[BarkingSpider]

Stone fruit: Have you considered Bramling Cross for aroma?

I do not have any experience with Bramling Cross, but from the Hopunion description, I didn't get the impression that it would be the right one: "Strong spice, blackcurrant, loganberry and lemon characteristics" It sounds like it could be interesting, but I think the stone fruit was coming from the yeast. That being said... do you get stone fruit from Bramling Cross?

 

[Jaybird]

My English is SIMPLE MO, 1oz ea British Chocolate and Crystal 40 per 5 gallon batch and choose your bittering hop. Fuggle or EKG are my go too hops for this beer. Target 1.048-1.052 and 24 IBU MAX I like to mash in the 150 range...

I like 002 and 007 for this beer and ferment slightly on the lower end of the temp range.

Its my go to simple, fast, get -r- done English beer.

Some KILLER looking recipes posted in this thread...

Cheers
Jay

 

[unionrdr]

Well, the one I posted is about as close as I can come to deciphering the Burton barleywine that some Burton brewers dubbed #1. Sweet finish, some said bitter as well, dark fruit flavors. But part of the fruit flavors definitely come from the yeast. I just used the dark candy sugar to put a bit more of them into it. Seemed like a decent idea to get close to the original?

 

[Cider123]

I'll throw one in. I tried this last time using 04 and it didn't have half the flavor as when I used 1469 (I just ordered a new smackpack) I didn't see too many milds without crystal so I tried this. Has a nuttiness to the malt background.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=464920

 

[Qhrumphf]

1469 is the only strain I'll use for my own English ales. The only other strain I'll use for English styles is the Coniston strain harvested out of bottles, for my clone (that I need to rebrew).

 

[FlyDoctor]

1469 is the only strain I'll use for my own English ales. The only other strain I'll use for English styles is the Coniston strain harvested out of bottles, for my clone (that I need to rebrew).

Like

 

[lowtones84]

Alright, here's a slightly revised recipe for my "summer" house bitter. Did some looking around on Shut Up About Barclay Perkins and this recipe caught my eye as a good starting point: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/03/lets-brew-wednesday-1942-barclay_11.html

Once again, this is a four gallon batch. I've included percentages because the numbers are a little funky

Est OG: 1.046
Est IBU: 25.75

4 lb, 14 oz. Crisp MO (78%)
10 oz. Flaked Barley (10%)
4 oz. Crisp Crystal 77L (4%)
6 oz. invert sugar (#2ish) (6%)
1.5-2 oz. Acid Malt (ph adjustment) (2%)

.33 oz. Target (11%) @ 60
.17 oz. Target @ FO
.5 oz. EKG @ FO

1L WLP002 starter from slurry

After reading several posts in the blog it seems that most beers were just a touch higher gravity than the current BJCP for ordinary, special, extra special before WWII. Not to be deterred by Hitler, I bumped the gravity up to 1.046 but am using the malt bill listed about as close as I can. The hops are slightly changed, but still in style and a combination that I enjoy. Thinking about a small 20 min. addition, also thinking about trying a hopstand with the late hops rather than FO. Does anybody do this with English beers?

 

[JKaranka]

St Austells and Thornbridge are famous for their hopstands but dry hopping would be the traditional option. All brewers in the UK used to dry hop every beer in cask up until the 20th century. Obviously bitter carried on being dry hopped.

 

[JKaranka]

I do not have any experience with Bramling Cross, but from the Hopunion description, I didn't get the impression that it would be the right one: "Strong spice, blackcurrant, loganberry and lemon characteristics" It sounds like it could be interesting, but I think the stone fruit was coming from the yeast. That being said... do you get stone fruit from Bramling Cross?

It's one of the few fruity traditional hops. EKG can give you some orange too. You'll need the right yeast and some dark invert sugar in combination with some fruity hops to get stone fruit out.

 

[JKaranka]

Well, the one I posted is about as close as I can come to deciphering the Burton barleywine that some Burton brewers dubbed #1. Sweet finish, some said bitter as well, dark fruit flavors. But part of the fruit flavors definitely come from the yeast. I just used the dark candy sugar to put a bit more of them into it. Seemed like a decent idea to get close to the original?

The recipes I've seen for Burton ale / old Burton are KK / KKK equivalent but darker. You also have the Burton ale from the 18th century that was very pale and hoppy. The recipes for the KK/KKK type are very simple: Pale malt (mix of 2 row, 6 row and mild malt), invert #3 or #4, and caramel for colour. Abv 5.5-7.5% aprox. Some have additional simple sugars (flaked maize, light invert) and/or crystal malt. Sugar content including invert can be up to 20% and crystal (if any) too. IBU around 50-70 with some late additions but nothing over the top.

Edit: If the above sounds a lot like a Belgian Dubbel that is hardly surprising given how much modern Belgian styles were influenced by British brewing (and some Scottish breweries in particular used lots of sugar). Try your favourite dubbel recipe, swap the Pilsner for Maris Otter and the yeast for S04. Also up the hops.

 

[Hanglow]

Lots of british breweries have hop backs that they can use for hopstands


here's Donnington Breweries hopback
https://youtu.be/YpLRjkgjt74?t=254

 

[balrog]

Question to those who've tried both 1469 W Yorkshire, and 1269 Thames Valley: both claim to accentuate maltiness (desired), what would you say are their main similar or dissimilar characteristics?

I tried making a Fuller's London Pride clone with 1469, but missed the mark on malty. I had many issues that day, digital thermometer went bad & likely mashed 5° lower than thought @147; 93% MO, 7% Bairds dark crystal, Willamette bittering, Perl & Northern Brewer flavor hopping, wanted Target/Challenger but had none. It was a fine beer, it was malty, I certainly wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers, but it wasn't near FLP.

Anyway, I wondered if 1269 would be better or go with; or should I use what some say is Fuller's yeast, Wyeast 1968?

 

[unionrdr]

The recipes I've seen for Burton ale / old Burton are KK / KKK equivalent but darker. You also have the Burton ale from the 18th century that was very pale and hoppy. The recipes for the KK/KKK type are very simple: Pale malt (mix of 2 row, 6 row and mild malt), invert #3 or #4, and caramel for colour. Abv 5.5-7.5% aprox. Some have additional simple sugars (flaked maize, light invert) and/or crystal malt. Sugar content including invert can be up to 20% and crystal (if any) too. IBU around 50-70 with some late additions but nothing over the top.

Edit: If the above sounds a lot like a Belgian Dubbel that is hardly surprising given how much modern Belgian styles were influenced by British brewing (and some Scottish breweries in particular used lots of sugar). Try your favourite dubbel recipe, swap the Pilsner for Maris Otter and the yeast for S04. Also up the hops.

The article also says they've mentioned many times that the Burtons were had a lot of similarities with Edinburgh ales of Scotland. I'll have to look into it further, & in some new directions...

 

[JKaranka]

For those Scottish ales I've seen up to 40% different dark sugars. Simple grist of one or two malts. Sometimes 2oz equivalent of black patent for colour (can be milled to expresso grind and added to the boil). Do you have Pattinson's guide to homebrewing vintage ales? At least one Scottish brewer used the same grist for all their beers and used caramel to give them different colours (they would have all been pale without).

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, I've seen the caramel additive in several instances, but how much? How dark is the caramel coloring they used? Ditto on the sugars? You see where that starts going nowadays? I was trying to get the darker color mentioned for the bigger Burton, then the flavors mentioned, along with other attributes. Not easy with the way they wrote down what they used in those days.

 

[JKaranka]

Follow the instructions for making invert #3. You can get different commercial brewing caramels. The impact on flavour is minimal and their colours usually range from 25000EBC to 38000EBC. I have a brewferm caramel that seems ok.

 

[unionrdr]

Yet another thing to look into. I'm trying to get the color & flavors they had without all the weird science stuff the article mentions they added to the beer. If that makes any sense.

 

[lhommedieu]

....Anyway, I wondered if 1269 would be better or go with; or should I use what some say is Fuller's yeast, Wyeast 1968?

Fuller's London Pride and ESB are two of my "go to" beers when I'm between kegs. I've always used 1968 for British ales and have been happy with the results. My issues have had less to do with malt backbone and more to do with attenuation. I've found that a 149F mash for 60 minutes and a slow fly sparge leadsto good results. I'm also wondering if a fermentation temperature towards the higher end of the yeast fermentation range would not bad idea.

Next winter I'm planning on making a German Alt using a decoction method; there's no reason why I couldn't make a traditional English ale using the same method with a British yeast and hop combination to match the flavor profile. I'd probably lager the ale to clean it up and make it a bit drier. I could call it an English Alt.

 

[JKaranka]

Yet another thing to look into. I'm trying to get the color & flavors they had without all the weird science stuff the article mentions they added to the beer. If that makes any sense.

I don't think it's "weird science stuff"!!
You can invert sugar on the stove top quite easily, or you can buy golden syrup and darken it using raw molasses (and invert a bit more). You can probably check if other caramel colorants are good enough for beer, but I know that there can be some issues if they aren't brewers' caramel (maybe the colour drops off over time?). The caramel, however, is not as important as the invert syrup.

Two Burton recipes here:

This one uses ~4oz Black Patent instead of brewers' caramel. 2lb of invert #3 in there.
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/lets-brew-wednesday-1923-courage-kkk.html

This one uses caramel and 2lb invert #2 (lighter stuff). In addition it has flaked maize, so I assume it's drier than the recipe above.
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/lets-brew-wednesday-1928-barclay.html

Just for fun, this Scottish ale recipe with 50% adjuncts has always intrigued me...
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/lets-brew-wednesday-1913-william.html

If I was going to cheat to not use brewers' caramel, I'd do an OG of 1.070 with 11.5lb MO, 1.5lb Invert #3, 4oz Chocolate Malt, 1oz Black Patent. Good 55IBU of hops. The only risk there is that there might be a hint of a roast, which you are not meant to have, but it might be just about ok.

 

[lowtones84]

St Austells and Thornbridge are famous for their hopstands but dry hopping would be the traditional option. All brewers in the UK used to dry hop every beer in cask up until the 20th century. Obviously bitter carried on being dry hopped.

Lots of british breweries have hop backs that they can use for hopstands


here's Donnington Breweries hopback
https://youtu.be/YpLRjkgjt74?t=254

Cool, thanks for the replies gents! I will try my first hop stand on this one then, probably in addition to the FO amount. I was reading and there are a few different stages, so I'll probably let it sit at the 190-200F range for a bit after the FO hops, then had some more around the 170F range for about 30 minutes. I do have a couple of cubitainers to serve from like a polypin, and I will package one gallon of the batch in that with some leaf EKG in the "cask"

 

[unionrdr]

The weird science stuff I was referring to is " salt of steel, or iron sulphate, bean flour, & sal prunella". The last one is what butchers in stores use to make the meat red again? WTF? Here's an interesting article I found about what Burtons are not & what some think they are; https://zythophile.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/come-back-for-the-burtons/ Also, how about using treacle in place of the light brown sugar? Some said the Burtons had a treacly taste?
**OK- Here's recipe number two. I took out some things, & upped/added others...
**Burton Ale**
3lbs-golden promise
3lbs-marris otter
8ozs-honey malt
1lb, 8oz-special roast
4lb, 8oz- plain light DME (Munton's)
1lb, 4oz- soft candi sugar, brun france' (dark)
4oz-treacle
1.25oz- warrior, bittering, 60 minutes
1.50z-East kent golding, flavor, 20 minutes
1.5oz-fuggle, flavor, 15 minutes
1.50z-willamette, flavor, 15 minutes
2 vials-WLP023 Burton ale yeast
Estimated OG-1.086
Estimated FG-1.024
IBU-49.5
Color-16.6 SRM
Estimated ABV- 8.2%
Single infusion, medium body, batch sparge, single stage
Look any better?

 

[JKaranka]

The weird science stuff I was referring to is " salt of steel, or iron sulphate, bean flour, & sal prunella". The last one is what butchers in stores use to make the meat red again? WTF? Here's an interesting article I found about what Burtons are not & what some think they are; https://zythophile.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/come-back-for-the-burtons/ Also, how about using treacle in place of the light brown sugar? Some said the Burtons had a treacly taste?
**OK- Here's recipe number two. I took out some things, & upped/added others...
**Burton Ale**
3lbs-golden promise
3lbs-marris otter
8ozs-honey malt
1lb, 8oz-special roast
4lb, 8oz- plain light DME (Munton's)
1lb, 4oz- soft candi sugar, brun france' (dark)
4oz-treacle
1.25oz- warrior, bittering, 60 minutes
1.50z-East kent golding, flavor, 20 minutes
1.5oz-fuggle, flavor, 15 minutes
1.50z-willamette, flavor, 15 minutes
2 vials-WLP023 Burton ale yeast
Estimated OG-1.086
Estimated FG-1.024
IBU-49.5
Color-16.6 SRM
Estimated ABV- 8.2%
Single infusion, medium body, batch sparge, single stage
Look any better?

I'm quite certain that article is out of date nowadays. The Burton pale ale of the 1800-1840s period was indeed pale. It was sweet because it's OG was very high (1.120 or so). Actually, many contemporary drinkers thought it had honey in order to keep it that pale and sweet. It wouldn't have had as much other stuff...

...and that's a different beer from what is known as Burton ale or the stronger Old Burton ale, which are evolutions of mild (X, XX, XXX) and stock ales (K, KK, KKK) in the 20th century. As mild, they became darker from the 1890s onwards.

It's indeed incredibly confusing, but the darker Burton would have a lower OG (1.050-1.095) and use dark brewing sugars.

 

[unionrdr]

That's also, I think, where the treacle (22SRM) & the dark candi sugar come in. I took out some things like the carared, since I have some grains I wanna use up. But I thought this recipe would come closer, being simpler? And I replaced the honey they used in the kegs with a little honey malt that gets the same effect at less cost. I also decided that since the spring water from White House Artesian Springs seems to tend toward the malty side when used for brewing, I'd use it. Rather than the Giant Eagle spring water, which seems to give better malt/hop balance.
It is very confusing, between articles, what people thought it was, what it really was, & what we have available today to at least come close. @ 16.6 SRM, it looks like it'll be an amber-brown color. I thought that sounded pretty close to early descriptions?

 

[JKaranka]

I just think the pale burton and the burton ale are two very different beers. Because burton ale (from the 20th century) is in living memory (going extinct in the 1960s) people often think that the pale burton from a hundred fifty years earlier would be related.

You could try 1lb dark brown sugar, 1lb dark candi syrup, 4-8oz treacle and leave everything else as pale malt. It just won't be the same as using dark invert sugar syrup but it definitively will have dark fruit and sherry flavours.

 

[unionrdr]

There were at least two different Burton ales, A #3 & a #1 that I've read about so far.

 

[JKaranka]

Young's Winter Warmer is reputed to be a Burton. You also have mid century KK and KKK which were Burton and Old Burton when sold at the bar. The point is that the style evolved a lot since it was a pale stale ale.

 

[lowtones84]

I suppose technically not a "Burton Ale" but it sounds like this sort of thing is close, and what JKaranka is likely talking about: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/12/lets-brew-wednesday-1933-barclay.html

That seems like a decent starting point to me for a dark version, you could always up the gravity a bit. Invert #2 isn't that hard to make either, just takes some time and watching it so it doesn't burn.

 

[bferullo]

My next porter uses Challenger, Bramling Cross and Fuggles. Challenger is readily available and I buy Fuggles by the pound. But Northern Brewer is the only source I've found for Bramling Cross.

Careful with Bramling. I used it for the first time, I found it to overwhelm the malt bill. So, it could just be I overdid it...but who knows??? I know its used a lot in the English styles, so I am sure it can work...just don't know the right ratios yet.

 

[unionrdr]

I suppose technically not a "Burton Ale" but it sounds like this sort of thing is close, and what JKaranka is likely talking about: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/12/lets-brew-wednesday-1933-barclay.html

That seems like a decent starting point to me for a dark version, you could always up the gravity a bit. Invert #2 isn't that hard to make either, just takes some time and watching it so it doesn't burn.

I saved this one for later study. But so far, it seems to have a color like my 2nd recipe, a dark amber/brown. The dark candi sugar, (22SRM), according to BS2, " Dark brown soft candi sugar. The darkest & most flavorful of cassonade on the market. It contributes noteable dark fruit & subtle caramel flavors at the same time. Ideal for all darker ales". The treacle, (100SRM), " UK mixture of molasses, invert sugar, & golden (corn) syrup. Imparts an intense sweet flavor & dark color. Used in dark English ales. Also called " Black Treacle" or " lyles B[lack]...(description cut off). This is where a lot of the color & other flavors come from. While I was redesigning the recipe, I noticed the sample color glass in BS2 went from a good amber/orange pale ale color to the dark amber/brown of the Burton darker strong ales when adding the treacle & dark candi sugar. But you can see by these descriptions that these two additions account for a good part of the flavor complexity. The yeast contributes some fruit flavors as well, so the two combined should make for something accurate...

 

[JKaranka]

I suppose technically not a "Burton Ale" but it sounds like this sort of thing is close, and what JKaranka is likely talking about: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/12/lets-brew-wednesday-1933-barclay.html

That seems like a decent starting point to me for a dark version, you could always up the gravity a bit. Invert #2 isn't that hard to make either, just takes some time and watching it so it doesn't burn.

Oh yeah! Can't go wrong with KKKK!

 

[Puddlethumper]

Careful with Bramling. I used it for the first time, I found it to overwhelm the malt bill. So, it could just be I overdid it...but who knows??? I know its used a lot in the English styles, so I am sure it can work...just don't know the right ratios yet.

You are correct in advising caution with Bramling Cross. And you aren't alone in experiencing an over-the-top spiciness that Bramling can bring if used early in the boil. We find ourselves in serious trouble if we try to use Bramling as we would any other aroma/flavor variety.

Properly used, though, Bramling can bring some wonderful flavors to the party. My favorite porter calls for 1/2 oz. steeped 30 minutes post-boil. This is followed by a dry-hop of 1/2 oz Fuggles at 5 days. Wonderful beer and the Bramling Cross brings a nice black currant note to the finish.

I would not suggest its use in anything but small amounts in late additions.

Cheers!

 

[coyote68]

You are correct in advising caution with Bramling Cross. And you aren't alone in experiencing an over-the-top spiciness that Bramling can bring if used early in the boil. We find ourselves in serious trouble if we try to use Bramling as we would any other aroma/flavor variety.

Properly used, though, Bramling can bring some wonderful flavors to the party. My favorite porter calls for 1/2 oz. steeped 30 minutes post-boil. This is followed by a dry-hop of 1/2 oz Fuggles at 5 days. Wonderful beer and the Bramling Cross brings a nice black currant note to the finish.

I would not suggest its use in anything but small amounts in late additions.

Cheers!

while brambling cross can be very assertive it does make an awesome smash beer. i keep one on tap at all times.

7 lbs marris otter
.5 oz brambling cross 60 min.
.25 oz brambling cross 20 min.
.25 oz brambling cross 2 min.

mash @ 154 F/ 60 min.

the most common response i get is. " what kind of berries did you use?"

 

[BrewinBromanite]

Billie Klub's punch-berries, of course!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Puddlethumper]

while brambling cross can be very assertive it does make an awesome smash beer. i keep one on tap at all times.

7 lbs marris otter
.5 oz brambling cross 60 min.
.25 oz brambling cross 20 min.
.25 oz brambling cross 2 min.

mash @ 154 F/ 60 min.

the most common response i get is. " what kind of berries did you use?"

Great recipe idea! I take it you are getting a session beer out of this? Nottingham yeast? If my calculations are right you're coming in at about 3.3% ABV and about 14 IBU. Is that what you are getting?

I may give it a go when I have an open tap.

Thanks!

 

[coyote68]

Great recipe idea! I take it you are getting a session beer out of this? Nottingham yeast? If my calculations are right you're coming in at about 3.3% ABV and about 14 IBU. Is that what you are getting?

I may give it a go when I have an open tap.

Thanks!

yes it's a great session beer(ordinary bitter) the numbers look good but beersmith gives a little higher IBU. notty works great but i like west yorkshire the best.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I found out none of the brewing supply websites had black treacle. Found it on amazon from Tate & Lyle for $6.99. Free shipping with amazon prime, so I signed up for the 30-day free trial to get it free 2-day shipping. It was listed in BS2 add-on updates. I also found a typo on Midwest site for the Brun Fronce' dark candi sugar.Listing said 5 SRM, pic of BB package said 36 SRM. BS2 said 22 SRM. James that I spoke to is going to try & fix the typo at Midwest. I changed the SRM listed in BS2.
Amazon only had 13 456g cans left, so I got that now for starters. It's said to give intense sweet flavor & dark color, but I'm only using 4 ozs in the Burton recipe.

 

[IslandLizard]

Tate & Lyle for $6.99. [...]
Free shipping with amazon prime, so I signed up for the 30-day free trial to get it free 2-day shipping.

Yup, Amazon is one of the few places selling that, although I may have seen it at the more upscale supermarkets, like Wegmans or WholeFoods, IIRC.

I hope you also put something on your calendar around the 28-day mark so you don't forget to cancel the Prime, or they'll be charging you for it, automatically!

After your free trial:
Your membership will automatically upgrade to an annual plan for $99/year.

Bast@rds!

 

[Qhrumphf]

I get my treacle (and my Ribena) from a British goods importer up the road. Haven't seen treacle anywhere else, and I'll smack anyone who says its the same as molasses.

 

[lookwow]

I get my treacle (and my Ribena) from a British goods importer up the road. Haven't seen treacle anywhere else, and I'll smack anyone who says its the same as molasses.

You better start smacking Wiki

From the treacle wiki.

Black treacle, or molasses, has a distinctively strong, slightly bitter flavour, and a richer colour than golden syrup

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, I'll have to calculate that 28-day mark! 100 bucks could by stuff for 2-3 batches of beer! Here's what BS2 says about the Treacle, " UK mixture of molasses, invert sugar & golden corn syrup. Imparts an intense sweet flavor & dark color. Used in dark English Ales. Also called " black treacle" or the brand name Lyle's B[description cut off here]". So it's a mixture, not just molasses. BS2 gives it 100 SRM.