Electric Question

[Baron ken]

First panel layout, what do you think?

Move the pump switches to the 3rd row (from top) and space out the heater switches across the 2nd row (putting the HLT/BK select between the HLT and BK switches).

Just a suggestion. Doesn't hurt to move them around and see what it looks like.

EDIT: could you post your visio file too, please?

 

[CodeRage]

Any reason the HLT/BK Select switch is so close to the row above?

I am guessing that it is because that switch determines which of the two are active. Makes sense to me.

Following that methodology I would put the HLT pump controls above the HLT HOA and the second pump above and between the BK and the RIMS. May make it look a little clustered in one spot though.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I am guessing that it is because that switch determines which of the two are active. Makes sense to me.

Following that methodology I would put the HLT pump controls above the HLT HOA and the second pump above and between the BK and the RIMS. May make it look a little clustered in one spot though.

I understand your point of arranging the switches in a way to similar to their relationship to the vessels and use. Problem is the Heat Element Switches can't be in the same order as the vessels. The HLT & BK switches need to be next to each other to make the HLT/BK selector make sense.

I moved them around a few times but haven't really found an orientation that really jumps out at me... The problem is that both pumps interact with two of the three vessels.

Pickles - As CodeRage said, my intention is to use the HLT and BK labels as the selector choices for the HLT/BK Selector switch. I may move it down a bit, but I want it to be obvious that is selects between the two switches above.

Ken - I'm trying to conserve some real estate on the panel in case I find something else to add... When I bought this panel, I thought I'd have all the switches, three PIDs and a timer. I really like the AMP meter that Kal put on his panel, just not sure I'll find space inside for a power supply. I can't load the visio file here on HBT, I'll try to load it on a share site and provide a link when I get a chance.

What do you guys think about the orientation and location of the Stop and Start buttons? What about the wording on the labels of all the switches?

 

[CodeRage]

Well, you could group the pumps by where they draw from. Pump 1 will always draw from the HLT while pump 2 can draw from either the MLT or BK. I swapped the stop start buttons around and put some more space between them. So you don't accidentally bump the e-stop or the start button when trying to press one or the other.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Well, you could group the pumps by where they draw from. Pump 1 will always draw from the HLT while pump 2 can draw from either the MLT or BK. I swapped the stop start buttons around and put some more space between them. So you don't accidentally bump the e-stop or the start button when trying to press one or the other.

Very nice.
I could also label the pumps based on their input "HLT Pump" and "MLT/BK Pump".
Any reason you swapped the Start & Stop buttons? Is there a standard? I'm right handed, so I'm thinking I have to reach across the Stop button to hit the Start button. Also seems that the Stop button should be in one of the upper corners of the panel... so you can find it even from the back side.

Thanks for the input.

Ed

 

[CodeRage]

No problem at all. I just swapped the buttons cause thats how I am used to seeing them. By all means arrange them so the estop is easily accessible.

Now if you have a lot of room on your panel surface. You could put a large P&ID (Piping and Instrumentation Diagram) And place your switches and controls in their corresponding locations. Basically explode your plumbing diagram. The HLT/BK select will Look a little out of place but I am sure you can figure out a good spot for it.

 

[pickles]

You could put a large P&ID (Piping and Instrumentation Diagram) And place your switches and controls in their corresponding locations. Basically explode your plumbing diagram. The HLT/BK select will Look a little out of place but I am sure you can figure out a good spot for it.

Or do the diagram and put LEDs in place of every device and have them turn on during respective processes throughout the brew. I'm planning on doing this on the bottom of my panel.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Very nice.
I could also label the pumps based on their input "HLT Pump" and "MLT/BK Pump".
Any reason you swapped the Start & Stop buttons? Is there a standard? I'm right handed, so I'm thinking I have to reach across the Stop button to hit the Start button. Also seems that the Stop button should be in one of the upper corners of the panel... so you can find it even from the back side.

Thanks for the input.

Ed

I would mount the panic stop button to the top of the panel for easy access from any angle within arms reach working around your brewery. All other controls on the panel front cover or door. My take on this.

 

[JayInJersey]

First off I would like to thank everyone that wrote in this thread. This has really been fundamental in helping me wrap my head around the whole electricity thing.

The diagrams and how they progressed were amazing in helping me through them.

I also want to thank you all for not do taking the "just do this" approach but instead approaching it from a "do it this way because" direction. I feel that is always way more advantageous way to get an idea across.

I'm working on a similar, minus the BCS but rather using PIDs.
I want my panel to be Star Trek meets Binford Tools, if you get my drift

I'm hoping my diagram shows:

• The PID to be on when the unit has power regardless of element state
• The element to be able to turned off a switch on the panel
• Both legs of element to be properly relayed using PID
• Green lamp to light when element is live (switch is ON)
• Red lamp to light when element is hot (switch is ON and PID has element ON)

Here is the excerpt to that section...is it diagrammed correctly?

 

[IrregularPulse]

Stupid little suggestion.
I would change "hand" on the Hand/Off?Auto switches to Manual, or just Man.
More Industry appropriate I guess.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

First off I would like to thank everyone that wrote in this thread. This has really been fundamental in helping me wrap my head around the whole electricity thing.

The diagrams and how they progressed were amazing in helping me through them.

I also want to thank you all for not do taking the "just do this" approach but instead approaching it from a "do it this way because" direction. I feel that is always way more advantageous way to get an idea across.

I'm working on a similar, minus the BCS but rather using PIDs.
I want my panel to be Star Trek meets Binford Tools, if you get my drift

I'm hoping my diagram shows:

• The PID to be on when the unit has power regardless of element state
• The element to be able to turned off a switch on the panel
• Both legs of element to be properly relayed using PID
• Green lamp to light when element is live (switch is ON)
• Red lamp to light when element is hot (switch is ON and PID has element ON)

Here is the excerpt to that section...is it diagrammed correctly?

1.) Not sure if you really want an indicator in series with the control input on the upper SSR?

2.) Depending on the current you are switching, the DPDT switch you have on the AC side of the SSR's might be hard to find and expensive.

 

[pickles]

Stupid little suggestion.
I would change "hand" on the Hand/Off?Auto switches to Manual, or just Man.
More Industry appropriate I guess.

Not that it matters, but I think the switches are called HOA (hand-off-auto) switches.

 

[CodeRage]

Stupid little suggestion.
I would change "hand" on the Hand/Off?Auto switches to Manual, or just Man.
More Industry appropriate I guess.

Industry standard is Hand Off Auto, Hand and Off positions are both Manual controls.

The indicators need to be tied between 110 and N or if they are 240V between L1 and L2. So come off of the load side of the ssr and tie it to the indicator. Then run the other side of the indicator straight to neutral (or other leg of 240).

 

[JayInJersey]

I got ya...stick the Lamp on the switched wire...good catch didn't see that.

While I was typing this that placement (on the control side) on yours TOTALLY became clear...I think
On yours...If the switch is off the relay would sever the power to the element as that is what it is suppose to do anyway right?

So this should fix the switch issue...and the the lamp issue right?

(On the switch I figure to add a second contact block to it so when the switch is ON it will both complete the circuit to the light regardless if the PID is activating the element and allow the PID to reach the relays; I'm just not sure how to show two circuits on the one switch...that make sense?)

I actually finished the drawing itself (minus labels...damn need to do that)

If you wouldn't mind taking a look at it and seeing if I'm completely off the farm

View attachment eHERMSv2.pdf

 

[Baron ken]

Referring to Visio-Panel v5.0:
The S1LED, which is the lamp on the HOA switch for heater1, is directly connected to SSR2 and to N. What gauge wire will you be using for that? I'll be using 10 AWG wire to/from the SSR and to the heater, and it looks like without a separate fuse, I'll need to use 10 AWG for the lamp too, correct? Actually, this applies to all of your heater elements (I only have 1 though).

Thanks.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Referring to Visio-Panel v5.0:
The S1LED, which is the lamp on the HOA switch for heater1, is directly connected to SSR2 and to N. What gauge wire will you be using for that? I'll be using 10 AWG wire to/from the SSR and to the heater, and it looks like without a separate fuse, I'll need to use 10 AWG for the lamp too, correct? Actually, this applies to all of your heater elements (I only have 1 though).

Thanks.

I'm gonna be cheatin a bit... I do not plan to put fuses in line to the LEDs. I'm planning to run 14 awg (because I have it) which is the maximum wire size spec'd for the connectors anyway. So I guess the LEDs will be acting as fuses. Even if you could get 10awg wire in the connectors, the switch is only rated for 10 amps anyway I think.

Good luck,

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I got ya...stick the Lamp on the switched wire...good catch didn't see that.

While I was typing this that placement (on the control side) on yours TOTALLY became clear...I think
On yours...If the switch is off the relay would sever the power to the element as that is what it is suppose to do anyway right?

So this should fix the switch issue...and the the lamp issue right?

(On the switch I figure to add a second contact block to it so when the switch is ON it will both complete the circuit to the light regardless if the PID is activating the element and allow the PID to reach the relays; I'm just not sure how to show two circuits on the one switch...that make sense?)

I actually finished the drawing itself (minus labels...damn need to do that)

If you wouldn't mind taking a look at it and seeing if I'm completely off the farm

What is the control voltage of your SSRs? Looks like you have them wired for 120v.

Also I'm confused about why you have 2 lines connected to the pole of the switch on the bottom element (you really need labels so it is easier to refer to components). And both leds are gonna light at the same time on the bottom element.

And you still have LED1 in series with the contacts on R1 and the contactor.

Hang in there... you'll get it.

 

[JayInJersey]

Thanks for catching the SSR mess...but I think I fixed that now.
You were right, I had them off the 110 main not the 12v
Labeling and touching it up I caught some issues too...but I think I finally have the LED mess sorted out so the elements have two lights on them...one when they are "ON" and one when the PIDs tell them to "Heat"

I also decided that since I want to use both the BK and HLT at the same time...I'd need to loose a BK element. And I think I can keep it under 48 amps too...so I'm looking at a 60amp service I guess.

I still have to do AWG and fuses...but I think I'm close now.


Started looking at some parts...and the question arises, if I needed a 60a 2-Pole 120v contactor for the e-stop, would a 63a 3-Pole 120v contactor work in its place leaving the 3rd pole empty?

(Sorry I had to zip it...but at 53kb its too big for uploading now)
(I think the "Legend" on the side is beefing up the size)

View attachment eHERMSv4.zip

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Thanks for catching the SSR mess...but I think I fixed that now.
You were right, I had them off the 110 main not the 12v
Labeling and touching it up I caught some issues too...but I think I finally have the LED mess sorted out so the elements have two lights on them...one when they are "ON" and one when the PIDs tell them to "Heat"

I also decided that since I want to use both the BK and HLT at the same time...I'd need to loose a BK element. And I think I can keep it under 48 amps too...so I'm looking at a 60amp service I guess.

I still have to do AWG and fuses...but I think I'm close now.


Started looking at some parts...and the question arises, if I needed a 60a 2-Pole 120v contactor for the e-stop, would a 63a 3-Pole 120v contactor work in its place leaving the 3rd pole empty?

(Sorry I had to zip it...but at 53kb its too big for uploading now)
(I think the "Legend" on the side is beefing up the size)

I haven't looked at the drawing yet... but...
You might want to think REAL hard about going to a 60amp supply. Parts start getting real expensive real fast... That is where I started and I was looking at $100 each for a plug and receptacle just to plug it in, then if you go with 4/4 SO cord, you are looking at $6-8/foot.

An alternative might be to use a smaller element in the HLT? You could always heat your strike water in the BK (with the larger element) and transfer to the HLT to maintain the temp. If you don't plan to do step infusion mashes you shouldn't need to quickly change your sparge temps?

As for the contactor... the one I am using is a 3 pole. Make sure the coil is 120 volts. I got mine off ebay, it was a new unit and nobody bid on it... I got it for 99 cents.

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

My latest files attached... sorry the PDF's are too big so I had to ZIP them.

Panel v5.1 is the latest logic diagram, just added some color to distinguish the circuits.

The other file... Visio-Panel v5.1 Wiring v1.5, is the actual wiring diagram I am working to. I am in the process of wiring this on a temporary backplane (plywood) before I punch holes in my enclosure.

I currently have all the power lines in place up to the fuses / breakers. I did "really temporarily" wire the e-stop and start just to test out the contactor and applied power. And guess what... NO SMOKE!!!

I've been pretty busy, but I'll try to get some pictures of the temporary setup this weekend.

Ed

View attachment Visio-Panel v5.1 Wiring v1.5.zip

View attachment Visio-Panel v5.1.zip

 

[JayInJersey]

Wow Ed...that wiring one help me visualize this a ton.

I noticed you changed the PB LED from the relay contact to the Coil Contact...was that just an AWG issue? I was worried about that myself.


I did some pricing today and you are totally correct...50a is for me, selector here I come <Glad I saved the file>

 

[egurney]

Ohio-Ed,
I think I'm going to be basing my system off of yours.
Two questions/favors if you don't mind.
1. Is there any way I can get the visio docs so I don't have to start from scratch.
2. Any chance you're going to have a parts list in the future.

Between this thread and the Pol's original HERMS thread, I've learned a lot over the past several months.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Wow Ed...that wiring one help me visualize this a ton.

I noticed you changed the PB LED from the relay contact to the Coil Contact...was that just an AWG issue? I was worried about that myself.


I did some pricing today and you are totally correct...50a is for me, selector here I come <Glad I saved the file>

I wired the PB LED from the coil of the contactor purely out of convenience. Its a little shorter/easier path to run the wire.

I think its a lot easier to lay it out on paper before you start putting holes in the box / panel. I got all the power wired on my temporary panel tonight... now just need to wire the control lines.

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Ohio-Ed,
I think I'm going to be basing my system off of yours.
Two questions/favors if you don't mind.
1. Is there any way I can get the visio docs so I don't have to start from scratch.
2. Any chance you're going to have a parts list in the future.

Between this thread and the Pol's original HERMS thread, I've learned a lot over the past several months.

I might do a parts list, but it may be a while yet. I still have to wait to see what I actually end up using.

Here is a link to the Visio files:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/w52yyy3l3md/Panel v5.1 Wiring v1.5.vsd

http://www.mediafire.com/file/gvgwlxelymc/Panel v5.1.vsd

Ed

 

[egurney]

Thanks, saved me a ton of time 'rebuilding the wheel'.
Still accumulating funds, so I'm pretty far from needing a parts list anyway .

 

[egurney]

Sorry to be a pain, but both of those docs link to the wiring diagram.

Beautiful work btw! Can't wait to see the finished product. Do you have an ETA at this point?

Eric

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Sorry to be a pain, but both of those docs link to the wiring diagram.

Beautiful work btw! Can't wait to see the finished product. Do you have an ETA at this point?

Eric

The file links should be fixed now... let me know if you still have any problems.

Thanks for the complement. Yea, I can hardly wait to see the finish product too.

I'm having a bunch of guys over to brew on the 20th. I plan to use the "temporary setup" for the 20th. The temporary setup consists of a plywood backplane and a spaghetti plate of wires. I can already tell I'm gonna have to move some components around a bit for the final version... because of the size of the wires, some of the "wiring channels" need to be adjusted (10 gauge wire doesn't make 90 degree bends).

Ed

 

[egurney]

Thanks.
You'll have to post before and after pics of the setup.
I'm pretty excited to get started, but have to wait for my Uncle Sam to give me some money for the project.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

IT"S ALIVE!!!!

Got the control wiring in place and the temporary panel & wiring works as expected!!!

I will post some pictures when I have a bit of time... You know what a PITA it is to take/re-size/host & link pics... just don't have time right now.

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Got a few pics of the TEMPORARY setup...

Here is the temporary panel... I just punched some holes in a piece of aluminum and then used a random orbit sander to kind of etch the face before I mounted the switches. I plan to brew with this so I will likely make some temp labels. As you can see, I laid it out like CodeRage suggested... I like it, but think for the final version I may have to move the Heat switches up a row to keep them from hitting components in my slant top box.

Back side of the panel... plate of spaghetti:

This is the temporary back plane... this is what would be on the bottom of the box. Every thing down to the receptacles, will be mounted on a panel. The BCS-460 is mounted on a DIN clip (you can see it on the right hand side). I REALLY hate the BCS-460 power supply (wall wort), you can see I have a DIN mount receptacle in the middle of the panel (takes up way more space than I'd like, actually more space that the BCS-460 itself).

Hard to see through this mess of wires but here is the SSRs and heat sinks. I'm going to mount the SSRs to one side of an aluminum plate and the heat sink to the other and mount the plate to the box with the SSRs on the inside.