Electric Question

[Ohio-Ed]

Ed,
I was testing mine out today and I noticed that if I don't have the pump or heater (I only have 1 of each) plugged in the lights on the switches are on (in hand, off, and auto positions). It seems that without a load plugged in the SSRs have a voltage drop across them, is this correct?
I'm not sure I want to change this though as I can use a switch light being on when it's supposed to be off to indicate to me I need to plug in the pump/heater.

EDIT: Found this thread discussing the very thing I mention above: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/ssr-testing-question-161385/

Yep... an SSR will "bleed" voltage with no load. Unfortunately the LED's are not enough of a load to prevent them from "bleeding" so they illuminate. This is actually a feature of the design... if you forget to plug in a pump or element, the LED will illuminate in the off position to draw your attention

 

[Baron ken]

Yep... an SSR will "bleed" voltage with no load. Unfortunately the LED's are not enough of a load to prevent them from "bleeding" so they illuminate. This is actually a feature of the design... if you forget to plug in a pump or element, the LED will illuminate in the off position to draw your attention

All good to know, thanks.

I didn't finish my wiring as I ordered the wrong contactor. I ordered a 240v coil instead of 120v. Think I'll just try to pick up a contactor locally at Grainger. May be a little more, but at least I'll have it quick and can return it easily if need be.

 

[CodeRage]

...
I think Stevehaun's question about wire gauge and fusing is related to my panel... between the terminal block(s) and the fuse holders/breakers, I have about 4-6" of "under sized" wire. I don't think I can run 6awg to a fuse holder or at a minimum, it would be a real pain. How much risk do you think there is in the way I have it wired?

Ed

I thought I answered this, guess I didn't. I would figure out a way to change it.

You could go into a distro block for 6awg, and then into a large breaker or large fuse for the elements. Bring a 6 awg wire into a 30 amp breaker and step down to #10 for your low current stuff. If you leave it, keep an eye on that wire when it is under max load, it may burn the insulator off. be careful mate .

No worries about the help. Glad I could be available.

 

[JayInJersey]

Now I'm thinking about having my system be able to be run completely from a panel OR from a BCS depending on my mood...

I'm beginning to hate options...

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Now I'm thinking about having my system be able to be run completely from a panel OR from a BCS depending on my mood...

I'm beginning to hate options...

Unless you are thinking of adding PIDs to your panel, temp control would be a challenge. But if you just want to heat some water, or run the pumps without touching your PC (or even having it connected), then the 3 way switches are great.

I like options... but they certainly cost money and create heart burn.

Ed

 

[JayInJersey]

Oh yeah...the panel will have PIDs


I always planned to have this up by 2012...so time and money aren't really an issue

Figure I'll start building an actual parts list around July and slowly have them drift in over the following year.

 

[The Pol]

Oh yeah...the panel will have PIDs


I always planned to have this up by 2012...so time and money aren't really an issue

Figure I'll start building an actual parts list around July and slowly have them drift in over the following year.

Just to mess you up more... I was playing with the manual control in the BCS this morning... it is pretty sweet. No need for automation if you dont want it, the manual control is very nice and it is much easier to change the parameters than on a PID mid process. Just saying

 

[JayInJersey]

Yeah but some days I feel like a nut...some days I don't


Figure I'll have the whole system on some sort of process switch and normally keep it on the BCS so I can do the whole iPhone thing when I first wakeup.

But on those days when I want to "man the helm" all her glory will be at my finger tips


All that being said...I'll probably redo the whole thing at least 5 more times between now and July when I "approve" my setup

 

[The Pol]

Yeah but some days I feel like a nut...some days I don't


Figure I'll have the whole system on some sort of process switch and normally keep it on the BCS so I can do the whole iPhone thing when I first wakeup.

But on those days when I want to "man the helm" all her glory will be at my finger tips


All that being said...I'll probably redo the whole thing at least 5 more times between now and July when I "approve" my setup

You are much more patient than I

 

[JayInJersey]

I still have my clone of your first system working fine...and technically I've only been brewing on that for about three months, so it still has its new car smell.

And I drove my Datsun a long time before I bought my Caddy....a long time

 

[RonRock]

Oh yeah...the panel will have PIDs


I always planned to have this up by 2012...so time and money aren't really an issue

Figure I'll start building an actual parts list around July and slowly have them drift in over the following year.

Better hurry, the world ends in 2012.

 

[JayInJersey]

If I get my rig done on 1/1/2012 I'm 100% sure it will end on 1/2/2012...but hey that's how I roll.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Just to mess you up more... I was playing with the manual control in the BCS this morning... it is pretty sweet. No need for automation if you dont want it, the manual control is very nice and it is much easier to change the parameters than on a PID mid process. Just saying

I have just started looking at programming the BCS. I have tested all the temp probes and outputs, now just need to define the processes.

I wish the BCS had an Autotune feature... I think it will take me a bit of time to figure out the settings... wish I could just push a button and tell it to figure it out on it's own.

 

[RonRock]

I know what you mean Ed. I wish it came with some kind of basic instruction manual. I know it is all in the Wiki. But flipping between the Wiki and BCS makes it harder than I think it should be. Once I get it sorted out in my mind I'll be ok.

 

[The Pol]

True, the BCS is not just plug and play, BUT... after a little messing it is easy to deal with. I too wish it had Autotune, but there is help here on HBT for manually tuning the PIDs. A small instruction sheet would be cool, especially for the initial setup and troubleshooting when trying to get it configured to your PC.

I love it though, sitting across the room and turning things on and off is just fun.

 

[The Pol]

I still have my clone of your first system working fine...and technically I've only been brewing on that for about three months, so it still has its new car smell.

And I drove my Datsun a long time before I bought my Caddy....a long time

I guess it is easier to be patient when you have a rig... and a new one at that!

 

[RonRock]

And Shiney

 

[JayInJersey]

Well no one told you to sell yours before you finished your new one ;p

 

[The Pol]

Well no one told you to sell yours before you finished your new one ;p

No, but I would have had a VERY hard time convincing SWMBO to let me spend what I did on the new one, without getting something out of the last one!

 

[JayInJersey]

You mean you asked before?


Maybe that's why I'm 0-3 on marriage...

 

[The Pol]

You mean you asked before?


Maybe that's why I'm 0-3 on marriage...

Yeah, the new rig is worth 3x as much as my car, almost 4x as much... so, that was a conversation we had to have

 

[JayInJersey]

wuss...then again my buddy is my lawyer and I trade him tech advice and beer for services

 

[The Pol]

wuss...then again my buddy is my lawyer and I trade him tech advice and beer for services

I love her, she is a nympho, and she let me build 100% of it INSIDE the house... I want to keep her around.

 

[JayInJersey]

Ok all you EE gurus...

Is there any problem you can forsee locating the SSR's, PID's and switches all in differnet boxes?

And for those boxes...can I use something other then metal? Plastic or wood comes to mind.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Ok all you EE gurus...

Is there any problem you can forsee locating the SSR's, PID's and switches all in differnet boxes?

And for those boxes...can I use something other then metal? Plastic or wood comes to mind.

First, I am not an EE...
My first experience with a PID started as an experiment to come up with a digital thermometer that I could calibrate. So I put a PID and a buzzer in a project box with a connector to an RTD probe. Then I build a RIMS heater and decided I'd like to retain the "portability" of the PID, so I build a separate box for the "power" pieces. In the second box, I put an SSR, heatsink, outlets for the RIMs heater and 2 pumps and switches. I added connectors to each of the two boxes and made an "umbilical cord" cable to run control voltage. I have used it a few times and it works fantastic. Both boxes I used are plastic.

Another thing I did was to put the SSR AND heatsink inside the "power" box.
I inserted a temp probe and cycled the the RIMS heater for 3 hours... the temp inside the box stayed well below the specs for the SSR. I'm not suggesting you do that, I was willing to take a chance on loosing an SSR. BTW... I used a 40 amp SSR & heat sink and a 1500 watt element in the RIMS heater.

Good luck.
Ed

 

[JayInJersey]

Cool. I'm thinking about having a small box in the front of the rig with the E-Stop, Start and Automation toggle then the main control panel with all the switches and PIDs both connected to a big ole "hot" box with all the connections, relays, fuses, and the BCS

At least today I am...tomorrow meh, might be starting anew again. But I think I'm really getting to understand all these diagram things now

I'm a silver lining type guy

Drew up a quick sketch of my "plan" let me know if the idea isn't feasible...practical I don't care about I already know its insane...I juat want to make sure its not fruitless

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Cool. I'm thinking about having a small box in the front of the rig with the E-Stop, Start and Automation toggle then the main control panel with all the switches and PIDs both connected to a big ole "hot" box with all the connections, relays, fuses, and the BCS

At least today I am...tomorrow meh, might be starting anew again. But I think I'm really getting to understand all these diagram things now

I'm a silver lining type guy

Drew up a quick sketch of my "plan" let me know if the idea isn't feasible...practical I don't care about I already know its insane...I juat want to make sure its not fruitless

Your E-Stop, Start, and Control all have low amperage requirements... I'd run 6/4 directly to your "Power Box", then what ever is required to the other box(s). I'm not real clear why you need separate Start/Stop and Control boxes but I'd put the "Power" box at the front of the line next the the GFCI?

 

[JayInJersey]

Yeah I guess that makes sense...just run the wires for the control of the E-Stop and such and the juice to the hot box.

I like that idea. Probably cheaper too.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

A quick update:

I brewed with the temporary setup Saturday.
I don't have the BCS programmed yet so the whole process was executed by "Hand" or by the BCS in "Manual" mode. Hit and held all temps, dead on!
I could use some float switches. I almost exposed and dry fired the element in the HLT near the end of the fly sparge.

Other than one change, I'm very happy with the functionality of the Panel.

I think I'm going to remove the BCS from the electrical box and power it seperately from the E-Stop circuit. Three reasons for this...
1.) I want to be able to program and monitor the BCS without the panel powered up..
2.) I got a wireless print server for the BCS so I can connect to it from a distance (no room for the PS in the box).
3.) I'll save some space in the box by removing the receptacle, wall wort, and BCS.

Ed

 

[egurney]

Would it be possible to have a BCS switch before the E-Stop that would just supply power to the BCS outlet?
Not suggesting that you do this, just wondering if it's 'kosher'?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Would it be possible to have a BCS switch before the E-Stop that would just supply power to the BCS outlet?
Not suggesting that you do this, just wondering if it's 'kosher'?

I'm sure I could wire the BCS in front of the E-Stop.
But currently, there is no switch for the BCS, so when the panel is plugged in, the BCS would be powered up. I feel more comfortable not having any more power inside the panel than is required for the E-stop, when the panel is powered down. Also, I like not having to have the 50amp plug and breaker energized just to program the BCS.


Ed

 

[BrewBeemer]

I'm sure I could wire the BCS in front of the E-Stop.
But currently, there is no switch for the BCS, so when the panel is plugged in, the BCS would be powered up. I feel more comfortable not having any more power inside the panel than is required for the E-stop, when the panel is powered down. Also, I like not having to have the 50amp plug and breaker energized just to program the BCS.


Ed

With the panel closed up who cares if it's hot or energized inside unless your panel has the door or front cover missing all the time while brewing. That would be a live front panel like high rise buildings in the 1910's era.
It would be no worse than the hot feeding the panel before the panic "E" switch, you still have hots entering the panel and it's hot inside the panel anyway.
Wire the BCS unit ahead of the "E" switch but add a switch to control toe power to the BCS unit then there is no worries about the BCS unit taking off energizing anything. My take on this.

 

[egurney]

Way back in post #72, CodeRage wrote

for the relay, look for an octal based ice cube relay.

I found this relay on Automation Direct
http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/75relays.pdf

Can somebody explain how I would go about wiring this for the E-Stop that was being discussed in post #72?

Thanks,
Eric

 

[egurney]

BTW, I understand the schematic, what I don't understand is which terminal in the base does what...

 

[Ohio-Ed]

BTW, I understand the schematic, what I don't understand is which terminal in the base does what...

If you are looking at relay 750-2C-XXX, the coil is between 2 and 7.
One set of normally open contacts are between 1 and 3.
Another set of NO contacts are between 8 and 6.
A set of Normally Closed contacts is between 1 and 4.
Another set of NC contacts are between 8 and 5.

So... if you apply the specified coil voltage across 2 and 7, then the contact between 1 and 3, & 8 and 6 close at the same time the contact between 1 and 4 & 8 and 5 open.

Per the drawing in post #200...
PB2 goes to one side of the coil (term 2)
The other side of the coil (term 7) goes to neutral
PB1 goes to PB2 AND one side of a NO contact (term 1)
The other side of the NO contact (term 3) goes to the coil (term 2)
F10 goes to PB1 AND one side of the other NO contact (term 8)
the other side of the second NO contact goes to the Contactor Coil

 

[egurney]

So... if you apply the specified coil voltage across 2 and 7, then the contact between 1 and 3, & 8 and 6 close at the same time the contact between 1 and 4 & 8 and 5 close.

I'm confused. When you apply voltage across 2 and 7, 1 and 3 close, shouldn't the connection between 1 and 4 open?

I've been doing a lot of research on this, and I had it figured out that 2 and 7 were the coil, and 1,3, and 4 were grouped, and 8,5, and 6 were grouped. I couldn't tell from the diagram which where NO and which where NC.

How could you tell?

I'm not far enough to get to the drawings, I'm trying to figure out how everything works first.

What relay did you use in your system for the E-Stop?

Thanks for the help,
Eric

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I'm confused. When you apply voltage across 2 and 7, 1 and 3 close, shouldn't the connection between 1 and 4 open?

I've been doing a lot of research on this, and I had it figured out that 2 and 7 were the coil, and 1,3, and 4 were grouped, and 8,5, and 6 were grouped. I couldn't tell from the diagram which where NO and which where NC.

How could you tell?

I'm not far enough to get to the drawings, I'm trying to figure out how everything works first.

What relay did you use in your system for the E-Stop?

Thanks for the help,
Eric

Yes... the NC contacts OPEN when the coil is energized (sorry, made a typo).
In the relay drawing, the NC contacts touch, the NO contacts do not. And they toggle when the coil is energized.

The relay I used was QM2N1-A120 from Automation Direct.

 

[egurney]

In the relay drawing, the NC contacts touch, the NO contacts do not. And they toggle when the coil is energized

I am in full understanding now.

Thanks again.

 

[egurney]

The relay I used was QM2N1-A120 from Automation Direct.

So on the QM2N1-A120, which sets are NC and which are NO?
It looks like 9-1 and 12-4 are NC, right?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

So on the QM2N1-A120, which sets are NC and which are NO?
It looks like 9-1 and 12-4 are NC, right?

You got it.
9-5 & 12-8 are the NO contacts you use in the E-Stop.