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ebay aquarium temp controller build
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Huaco
Well-Known Member
These things DO have audible alarms! I found that out last night. I had my new multi-temp control box powered up for the first time, but without temp sensors... The power was on about 3 seconds and then all hell broke loose! Scared the crap out of me actually... (well, not literally) it sounded like a hundred finger nails on chalk boards! I guess the alarm is for failures, not high-low temps...
I thought it sounded more like Ned Beatty in Deliverance. Annoying in any case. If that is the same speaker used for the over/under temp alarm, I will pass. Maybe if it was only short beeps, or muffled with a piece of tape, or something. No way could I listen to that for who knows how long before temps get back in range.
The photos show cooling only. Did you order one that came as heating only?
Either way, it doesn't look like it can be switched between heating and cooling, not 10+ amps, or come with the nicer stainless probe like the preferred single stage model.
If the guy only needs cooling, it isn't as drastic a mistake as the guys who come on here bragging about how they got a dual stage for $18, only to find out it is 220V.
The regular single stage heat/cool models on Ebay were only $14 shipped last time I searched.
raouliii
Well-Known Member
The CH54 is a single stage, heat OR cool controller, with the same relay (and same current rating) as the STC1000. Heat OR Cool is selectable in the setup menu.
CH54
STC1000
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
JuanMoore
Getting the banned back together
I know the relays used are the same, but does that really mean the current rating for the entire controller is the same? Couldn't there be other components that are bringing the rating down?
I think this has been brought up before, and there was still the unknown of whether the traces on the board may be thinner for these 5A rated units, and they just used the 15A relay because the was a pile of them in the corner next to the chicken coop.
It is still a bit of a gamble that the next batch may actually have a 5A relay. Especially when the gamble costs $2 more than the equivalent off Ebay with a stated 10A, and stated switchable heat/cool. Also, dual stage STC-1000 are only $20 shipped these days, if you don't need Ned to squeal like a pig for you when your mash is out of range.
raouliii
Well-Known Member
Sure, there could be other limiting factors, but in this type of simple relay circuit, the contacts themselves tend to be at the top of that list.
I'll open my spares up and inspect the traces.
FWIW, the paperwork on my CH54 states 10A, the same as the STC1000.
For me, the choice between the two does not come down to comparing a perceived gamble or price, but features. The CH54 provides the features that I consider most important to my fermentation chamber's operation and I have no concern that my chamber will exceed its current capacity.
I can't say that I have heard mine make any audible sounds yet.
The traces may be narrower and/or the substrate thinner. The distance from the relay to the post is so short though, they would have to have been real cheapskates for them not to handle 10A. If they have an appliance engineer working for them, it is a possibility- those guys think in fractions of a penny.
Why are all the single stage users so GD cryptic about why they choose them. What features does it provide that make it a better choice for you? You obviously don't use the min/max alarm. The only other notable difference is F vs. C.
Not fessing up just leads newbies to incorrect assumptions, like they don't need heating and cooling, even though they live in Maine, because they were reading posts from a guy living in Miami.
See above about min/max alarm. You can also disconnect your sensor if you miss having a newborn around- same effect.
raouliii
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I will inspect the traces.
Not trying to be cryptic; just didn't want to argue the details of MY preferences, but here goes.
My primary reason for choosing the single stage is that it reads in fahrenheit. I had a STC1000 installed for over 6 months and just became tired of referring to temperature in celcius and converting with a chart. I just don't think in celcius, even though I used mostly metric units in college engineering.
I maintain logs of my fermentation schedule and found that I was having to record temperature in both units to be useful and decided that it was unnecessarily cumbersome.I actually went through a lot of trouble installing a heat strip in my chamber, but have found that I didn't really need it. My chamber, a TRUE GDM-10 commercial cooler, is in my garage, in South Louisiana, which, with two other refrigerators, rarely drops below 40ish F. It has a 9watt evaporator fan which is constantly running and I have found, even in the dead of winter, I can ramp up an ale or lager to clean-up temperatures over the course of two or three days with no added heat. When I converted over to the single-stage I developed a schematic to add a manual HEAT/COOL toggle function but I haven't needed to implement it.
All of that being said, there is one drawback to the single-stage that is important to me. The STC1000 has a displayed resolution of 0.1degC and the CH54 is 1degF. As I recall, when I initially installed the CH54, I found that it would misbehave when the difference setting was set to 1degF. In cool mode, as it warmed to the SET + Diff temperature it would toggle between the integer values once or twice, which would momentarily bump the compressor on and off and start the delay timer. The compressor would then not cycle on until the delay was complete. I have set it to a 2degF differential to mitigate the issue, which results in a little more than 1degF control. I suppose that I could also just drop the delay time down to 1 minute and keep the differential at 1degF.
I am always on the look-out for the perfect controller for me but have not yet found it. I may have to build an arduino or netduino version to get it.
I'm not aware of the alarm function. There are upper and lower limits that can be established but the instructions indicate that this only limits the SET temperature and doesn't appear to function as an alarm. I've never tried using these limits as alarms.
JuanMoore
Getting the banned back together
I think I was one of the first to buy the single stage units intentionally. The main reason I did so was price. At the time the stc-1000 was selling for $20 plus $10 shipping, and none of the sellers were willing to combine shipping for multiple units. I bought 3 single stage units for $15 each and $8 combined shipping. So it was $53 instead of $90. At the time I had a ranco controller for my ferm fridge, and an stc-1000 for my keezer. I figured I could use the stc-1000 for my ferm chamber, sell the ranco, and buy a single stage unit for my keezer and two more for the control panel I was building for my HERMS. I was also curious about the single stage units since nobody had posted anything about them. I don't mind the Celsius for my ferm chamber or keezer, but my brain thinks in F when mashing, so I thought that would be a benefit if they worked.
As for the advantages now that the prices are similar, I'm not sure there are any. Some people find the temperature being in Fahrenheit to be an advantage, and a lot of people prefer the small SS cylindrical probe over the rubber blob probe. There are more options for settings and programming, but none that are that useful or that I'd say give the single stage a significant advantage over the stc-1000. The obvious advantage the stc-1000 has is dual stage control. I have dual stage for my ferm chamber and wouldn't have it any other way, but it's not needed for my keezer which is kept indoors, or for my HERMS control panel. For someone who doesn't need dual stage control, I don't think the stc-1000 has a significant advantage over the single stage units.
I'm not sure how you could externally toggle between cool and heat (with temp control), unless you are talking about toggling between 2 discrete controllers. Maybe I am mistaken about those single stage controllers needing to be switched between heat or cool through the menus, or else you have a method that hasn't occurred to me.
You definitely do not want to reduce the ASD to 1 minute. Sounds like typical chingineering to not dejitter that, especially when the display res and diff value are equal. It seems like a better solution would be to leave it at 1F, and since ASD triggering is an operationial issue, to set ASD to the shortest 'generally agreed safe' value of 5 minutes. I would think 5 minutes would be less time than it would take the ferm to increase an additional degree, but maybe not- my .5C diff doesn't allow me to know the gory details of such abhorrent abuse of beer.
Any of the user programmable uprocessor solutions allow much more flexibility, like ramping, soaking, freerise then ramp, crashing, logging, sensor averaging, multiple ferms, etc. The best standalone controller I have seen so far is the 2 stage Love that allows dual stage, or 2 single stages with one or two probes. It doesn't sound fun to program all that through the buttons and menus though, and I don't recall if there is a USB type solution.
I know that for at least one of the single stage units there is a separate min/max for an alarm, or maybe an alarm offset from the setpoint.
raouliii
Well-Known Member
The external toggle would switch the output of the single controller between the compressor or heater. The controller would also be switched between cool and heat mode.
Unless something goes wrong, like my probe falls free of the carboy, there should be no danger that the compressor would ever short cycle, regardless of the delay. There's just too much thermal mass in the beer. That .3C is about .54F. Regardless, I think a 1.1F swing is far from the abuse you claim. As I recall, when setting up the STC1000 initally, I had 0.3C undershoot cooling and 0.5C overshoot in heating. Certainly a function of my equipment but my differential had to take that into account or it would be chaos.
Good information. My future may include brew automation.
Short cycling can happen fairly easily if it has just finished cycling, and you open the door and start jacking with things. That is most dangerous time for a compressor, immediately after it stops, and is the primary purpose of ASD.
I was only joking, and rubbing it in about a single stage drawback- I just don't bother with emoticons. I also thought you were also talking about having a 2F swing due to jitter issues at 1F, and 1F resolution- zing. I actually set mine to .5C, which is more than adequate tolerance, and saves the compressor.
Maybe more fans, and/or less insulation over the probe. The ambient air influencing the probe acts like a predictive control. I disable heating when it isn't in play in the spring/summer/fall, just in case this kind of funny business happens when I'm not looking. The Love controller I mentioned has true hysteresis control that can compensate for this effect, unlike a simple differential value.
I have the same opinion regarding levels of automation as electric Kal does, and he does it for a living. He only controls temps, and sees electric valves and a bunch of hard plumbing as more problematic, at the homebrew scale anyway. Full automation does bring style points, and impress the ladies.
This statement is more clear, but you still made a vague reference to the mysterious "more options for settings and programming" of the single stage. I forget, but I thought the only additional option was the alarm?
My concern was for the newbies who are in info overload, and usually of the mindset that most guys over build stuff, and so they look to see what someone/anyone may claim is unnecessary, and choose the simpler/cheaper model- especially when the cheaper one doesn't force them to use that communist Celcius scale. They then find out later that the primary benefit of the dual stage is what they needed.
The choice of which controller is necessary is very location dependent- whether you live north or south, and/or whether your keezer/fermenter is located inside or outside/garage. That said, in the cases where either will work for a particular application, besides the $5, it becomes a choice of what you lose or gain with each- single stage vs. dual stage versatility/future use, stainless vs. rubber probe, min/max alarm vs. none, F vs. C scale, 1F vs .3C min diff, 1F vs .1C resolution, etc.
JuanMoore
Getting the banned back together
There's also a min/max setting that essentially disables the ability to set the temp outside of a given range without a whole bunch of additional steps. I use it on my HERMS control panel so that I (or my daughter or someone helping me brew) can't accidentally set the temp outside of the range where enzymes are active. You can also set the min/max to alarm (as you mentioned) and IIRC you can also set it to shut the controller off if temps go outside of the set range. There's also a "lock" feature where you can wire a switch in that essentially locks all of the parameters in place. You can still access the menus and look at the settings, but can't edit any of them. Might be useful for those with flush mount controllers on the front of their keezer to prevent kids or drunken guests from changing settings. Like I said, nothing all that useful that gives it a significant advantage over the dual stage IMO.
These are just for the single stage units that I have. I've seen at least two other single stage units posted here, and I don't know if they have the same programming options or not.
And FWIW I've never tried to push the single stage controller on anyone. I think the stc-1000 is a better and more versatile option for most people, primarily because it's dual stage. I have however defended against posts claiming that the single stage units are not a viable option.
I know you never pushed it, but whenever it was defended as a choice (not necessarily by you) the reasoning wasn't always clear as to what it could do that the the dual stage couldn't (and there was usually the added allure of the mysterious hidden programming features). Before you beat me to it, I was about to edit my previous post to add the features I left out (from when you gave those a few (hundred) posts back). At least now there is a somewhat consolidated grouping of the features/differences of the single and dual stage.
I still think most of the non-process affecting features of the single stage are a bit hokey. I can't wait to see someone's panel with a three key lock to enable setting a new temp, like it's a nuclear missile being launched. I know the devil's spawn manage to get their grubby fingers into everything, but aren't those new age 'time outs' supposed to fix that?
As I see it, the biggest advantages of the single are the F scale (for us gringos at least, and even though it doesn't affect the process); and if you use it to mash, and don't want to stare at your panel the whole time, the over/under temp alarm. The biggest drawbacks of the single are no dual stage functionality, lower temp resolution for the display, diff, and setpoint (1 F), and a higher min diff value (2 F with no jitter?).
Interesting about the jitter on the single stage causing an issue at 1F diff. I think raouliii diagnosed it correctly that it is an issue with the current temp and min diff value being the same resolution with no smarts to mitigate jitter. The dual stage isn't affected since the temp res is higher than the min diff value. Like raouliii mentioned, probably the reason the min diff is 0.3C instead of 0.1C. On the single stage, they probably should have made the min diff 2F to fix it, but it would not have been good for marketing. An even better solution would have been to resolve down to 0.1F.
BetterSense
Well-Known Member
No telling how the programming is done. Just because the display is in F or C that doesnt mean anything. The smart way to do the programming is to do the math at higher precision and truncate/round to the display at the last minute. It would honestly be pretty silly to do the thermostat math in F or C, but who knows.
raouliii
Well-Known Member
Huaco
Well-Known Member
Oh my gosh... Enough with the single stage theology debate already...
It seems pretty obvious there is no programming regarding the jitter. A single blip of the display also triggers ASD. The higher precision, at least in the code, is exactly what I proposed for a real fix. The dirty workaround would be to increase min diff to prevent false ASD triggering, or relay chatter if ASD is not enabled. 2F temp tolerance doesn't look good on a spec sheet, though.
Have you ever worked with Chinese engineers? It's interesting. American engineers have had their moments too, if you remember that probe that crashed into Mars because of a miles/meters gaff (though I hear it may have been sabotage by a disgruntled employee).
I forgot about F needing to go >100 and the 3 digit display, but the math can still be more precise- what do you expect for $15.
Nobody likes to deal with engineers, until they need something fixed. Kind of like attitudes towards lawyers, until you need one. The difference is the lawyers usually created the legal problem you need fixed.
zachattack
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I can appreciate what you're saying, though it's irrelevant in this conversation. I mean, it's a thread about a cheap, simple stage on/off controller. There's really no need to overcomplicate things, that can happen in another thread. FWIW, I'm an engineer and most people like dealing with me :cross:
I think his point is, he didn't think we need 30 posts about control theory, single stage vs. dual stage, etc. in a thread about building up a cheap temperature controller. And I agree
socalboomer
Well-Known Member
as an engineer myself, I agree with Zachattack. . . I started perusing this thread to find information regarding using an inexpensive controller (either dual or single) for a Keezer and then a ferm chamber. . . no need to go all argumentative on us.
JuanMoore
Getting the banned back together
So zachattack and socalboomer don't want to make this a significantly more complicated issue than it needs to be? I'm not sure I believe that you two are engineers.
Huaco
Well-Known Member
Militant engineering... God Help Us All!
I'm not an engineer, but work in design and have a natural leaning toward the technical aspect of life. I just think that discussion belongs in it's own thread... Possibly a thread named: "How to take a cheap-A$$ Chinese micro-controller meant for fish and completely over-engineer the hell out of it while simultaneously completely changing the design intent of said micro-controller... all while beating my own opinion into the heads of those who disagree with my perfect engineering skills..."
I'm not an engineer, but work in design and have a natural leaning toward the technical aspect of life. I just think that discussion belongs in it's own thread... Possibly a thread named: "How to take a cheap-A$$ Chinese micro-controller meant for fish and completely over-engineer the hell out of it while simultaneously completely changing the design intent of said micro-controller... all while beating my own opinion into the heads of those who disagree with my perfect engineering skills..."
zachattack
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So zachattack and socalboomer don't want to make this a significantly more complicated issue than it needs to be? I'm not sure I believe that you two are engineers.
hahaha valid point.
Like one for the people asking about the single stage version?
I completely agree, this thread should remain purely about the OPs original topic. Although, relatively speaking, 30 off topic posts is < 1% of the total. Come on, this thread only stays alive with the occasional post from someone saying they didn't bother to read every post, but could someone please give me a wiring diagram. Apparently, they don't read past the title.I think his point is, he didn't think we need 30 posts about control theory, single stage vs. dual stage, etc. in a thread about building up a cheap temperature controller. And I agree
There is no real need to peruse, or even for any further posts in this thread. The very first one covers the OP's topic completely.as an engineer myself, I agree with Zachattack. . . I started perusing this thread to find information regarding using an inexpensive controller (either dual or single) for a Keezer and then a ferm chamber. . . no need to go all argumentative on us.
I don't know whether I am more offended that no lawyers took the bait, or that I got attacked by my own tribe. Entertainment value was about the same, which was my goal anyway.
Militant engineering... God Help Us All!
I'm not an engineer, but work in design and have a natural leaning toward the technical aspect of life. I just think that discussion belongs in it's own thread... Possibly a thread named: "How to take a cheap-A$$ Chinese micro-controller meant for fish and completely over-engineer the hell out of it while simultaneously completely changing the design intent of said micro-controller... all while beating my own opinion into the heads of those who disagree with my perfect engineering skills..."
+1
Lets make some beer.
