Dubbel trubbel?

[sibelman]

I'm interested in making a Belgian-style dubbel, so I bought a few to help inform the effort. Didn't go great.

The first, Corsedonk Pater (7.5%) was rather boring. The second,
Westmalle (7.0%) had only a bit more interest. Both were near their "best by" dates, and the retailer stores them un-refrigerated. So maybe not a fair sample.

The third, La Trappe (7.0%), was kept refrigerated and seemed quite worthy. Also, it was somewhat fresher than the first two.

So, even though the tasting was somewhat discouraging, I'm intrigued to try some D-180 Candi syrup and Special B, on a base of mostly Dingemans pale malt with maybe 10% Munich or Vienna. Maybe fermented with Imperial B48 Triple Double.

Suggestions? What has worked well for you?

 

[AlexKay]

Triple Double is nice. I've used it a few times, though nowadays I've been using Lallemand Abbaye and been pretty happy with it. Can't beat the convenience (or the price.)

I'd strongly recommend D-90 over D-180. Use more if you have to. The flavor is just closer to what you need.

I'd strongly recommend a very, very gentle hand with the Special B. It is strong stuff. My preference is "none" but that's probably not the mainstream view. I did just judge a flight of Belgians and drank way too much raisin wine. Blech.

How to avoid Special B? My last dubbel had an English pale (e.g., Maris Otter) base with ~5% each Victory and white wheat. Then medium crystal, crystal wheat, Simpsons DRC, and pale chocolate. I felt that it gave it complexity that just clobbering it with Special B never could. You do want to keep the roast level at just-barely-perceptible or below.

The Munich is a good idea. Nothing ever suffered from the addition of a pound of Munich.

There are a lot of variables. I've made around 10 and am still tweaking the recipe to get something that's perfect for me.

 

[sibelman]

nowadays I've been using Lallemand Abbaye

Thanks for the benefit of your experience, Alex - just what I was asking for. I used Abbaye in my previous Belgian, and it worked well.

I've read others singing the praises of Special B, so thought to try some. Perhaps I'll reconsider - some recipes suggest CaraMunich or other caramel/crystal malts. Sometimes some raisin is okay with me, but I do get that it can easily go too far.

The choice may be decided by what my LHBS carries - for example, they have Simpsons Crystal Dark, but not DRC - or I might decide to pay shipping to get "the right" malts. As if I can really know what those are, given I've only made a couple of Belgians ever. I don't often use complex malt bills - no disrespect to those who do.

Thanks again!

 

[Jeroen79]

I would just use pilsner malt and a little bit of dark chocolate malt, and just use dark candy sugar, no need for expensive D-180 sirop or specialty malts.

Also you should actually taste these not to cold, about 8-10°C.

What is even better then a double is a more heavy Belgian Trappist beer like Rochfort 10 or Chimay Blue.

 

[sibelman]

Thank you, @Jeroen79. I might have enjoyed my older dubbels more at higher temp. I've enjoyed Chimay Blue, though not often or recently.

Re syrup vs. hard candi sugar, I've read some folks have a strong pro-syrup bias, and others shrug. It's good to get varying perspectives. Either way, I've learned that adequate stirring is essential lest some of the candi goodness get left behind.

On specialty malts, some recipes go wild with six varieties; others très simple. I'm on the fence.

 

[MikeCo]

The Northern Brewer recipe was the first dubbel I made, and one of my best. It uses special B, cara 45 and dark candy sugar, but you could probably use table sugar instead and adjust the special B up a bit if you don't want to use the expensive candi sugar rocks. It uses the Chimay yeast - WY1214.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/belgian-dubbel-all-grain-kit
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2...Dubbel-1526647641654.pdf?15920266987559247306

 

[jdauria]

I saw something recently that some of the liquid candi sugar products out there have cut corners and are using high fructose corn sugar as their main ingredient these days. So keep an eye out for that if it matters to you.

 

[MikeCo]

Yes, here is a thread about the knock-off candi syrup.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/candi-syrup-is-it-real-does-it-matter.735380/

 

[shoengine]

@sibelman posted in that thread, so is probably aware of it!

I don't see any issues with special B in a dubbel recipe. I'm also a big fan of Munich in my Belgians.

 

[odie]

Triple Double is nice. I've used it a few times, though nowadays I've been using Lallemand Abbaye and been pretty happy with it. Can't beat the convenience (or the price.)

I'd strongly recommend D-90 over D-180. Use more if you have to. The flavor is just closer to what you need.

I'd strongly recommend a very, very gentle hand with the Special B. It is strong stuff. My preference is "none" but that's probably not the mainstream view. I did just judge a flight of Belgians and drank way too much raisin wine. Blech.

How to avoid Special B? My last dubbel had an English pale (e.g., Maris Otter) base with ~5% each Victory and white wheat. Then medium crystal, crystal wheat, Simpsons DRC, and pale chocolate. I felt that it gave it complexity that just clobbering it with Special B never could. You do want to keep the roast level at just-barely-perceptible or below.

The Munich is a good idea. Nothing ever suffered from the addition of a pound of Munich.

There are a lot of variables. I've made around 10 and am still tweaking the recipe to get something that's perfect for me.

I associate D-90 with Dubbels and D-180 with Quads

Special B...just a few ounces is good.

 

[MikeCo]

I associate D-90 with Dubbels and D-180 with Quads

Special B...just a few ounces is good.

I agree, the D-180 is more for Quads and D-90 for dubbels. But I have used 50% each of those in a quad and it was excellent.

Agreed, it's easy to overdo the special B.

Triple double yeast is nice for flavor but gets extremely foamy; you may want to use fermcap. It can also take a long time.

 

[hottpeper13]

I make a Dubbel Quad, barrel aged and ~12%. Some C-120 or Special B, C-120 is like Special B lite to my pallet. 1 lb D-180, the base malt is 80% Munich and 20% Pilsner malt. This year I got some of the fake bottles of 180, I'm gonna use them anyway and will start a thread when tasting. It will be around 8 months. The barrel will be empty in June.

 

[sibelman]

Dubbel Quad

Interesting name. I thought there was a sort of (ABV) hierarchy: dubbel, trippel, quadrupel.

Can you offer additional detail (malt/candi bill, OG, yeast) about your Dubbel Quad?

 

[VTMongoose]

I prefer Weyermann's Caraaroma over Special B. Agree on D-90 vs D-180, but if you can't get the authentic candi syrup examples right now, I would say don't bother and just use caramalt instead and sub a white sugar for that part of the grist.

Belgian Dubbel is a fairly restrained style. A lot of judges go to the table expecting them to taste like a Quad, but that's not what the actual commercial examples of the style are like at all. Now to win at a competition, is another matter, you do indeed basically need to make a small Quad, and I agree with the kitchen sink malt bill approach, cheater malts like victory, etc.

I feel that Lidl's "Abbaye du Valclair Brune" is actually an almost textbook example of the kind of pseudo-Dubbel that would do well in a competition with the average inexperienced judge.

I have a Dubbel fermenting right now. Feel free to examine my recipe. It's based off of Meanbrews. Lallemand Abbaye is Chimay's strain by the way (source). I wanted to use WY1762 (Rochefort) but the starter I tried to make from the pack I bought sadly failed. I'm using local malts but their aromatic is pretty mild and their biscuit which is a lot like victory is super nutty so I dialed that back.

https://share.brewfather.app/ahw86bERxdjgtq

Chimay's Red is my personal gold standard for the style and lifetime favorite. But most other fans of Belgian beer that I am friends with feel it is very overrated, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

 

[MikeCo]

I agree Chimay Red is great! I think that's the basis for the Northern Brewer recipe I posted.

 

[mashdar]

Grimbergen is what I consider the model "dubbel" style. But I think they may not have USA distribution any more?

I also love Brugse Zot bruin, if you can find that. (My favorite belgian beer.)

 

[sibelman]

Chimay's Red is my personal gold standard for the style and lifetime favorite.

Chimay has a special place in my heart because it was my gateway (some restaurants sold it in the 80s) to the amazing world of Belgian beers. That vast world is still largely terra incognita for me.

Portland is a great beer town, but retailers devote little shelf space to Belgians. Unsurprising of course.

 

[mashdar]

If you're looking at Chimay, I'd personally default to the CSI recipe. They have a Chimay red and blue.

Bobby has the CSI products again - It's probably apppearing other places too. IMO don't skimp on the syrup, as it's really most of the flavor of dark trappist beer. Dark crystals are not "authentic".

edit: forgot to link https://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

edit to avoid spamming thread: I also think of D-90 for dubbels, but interestingly, the CSI recipes for Chimay red and blue use D-45. If you're really going for a clone, I'd trust their take. I suspect a Grimbergen recipe would use ~1lb D-90 in 5 gallons, for comparison.

 

[hottpeper13]

Interesting name. I thought there was a sort of (ABV) hierarchy: dubbel, trippel, quadrupel.

Can you offer additional detail (malt/candi bill, OG, yeast) about your Dubbel Quad?

The hierarchy is what drives the name. It's a dubbel flavor wise with a quad abv. I shoot for 1.100-1.120 OG. the yeast is The Yeast Bay Belgian Dry liquid. This yeast is diastaticus and very controllable in flavor and attenuation. It also produces a ton of glycerin, so even thou they finish at 1.016- 1.020 they don't feel thin for a big beer. The malt bill is in the first post, C-120 and Special B are polarizing and you need to find your level. I used 8 oz of both ONCE and had something akin to prune juice. It was drinkable at year 4.

 

[sibelman]

I shoot for 1.100-1.120 OG

I used 8 oz of both ONCE and had something akin to prune juice. It was drinkable at year 4.

Thanks, this is very helpful. I'm assuming a ~5 gallon batch size.

 

[Jeroen79]

If you go that high its not really a dubbel anymore, its either a quad or just strong trapist style dark beer.

Not that it matters, its more fun to experiment then to follow exact styles, but if you call it a dubble some people might start harassing you

 

[MikeCo]

I also think of D-90 for dubbels, but interestingly, the CSI recipes for Chimay red and blue use D-45. If you're really going for a clone, I'd trust their take.

I've looked at this CSI recipe and didn't like the fact that they use D-45; I'd be curious to hear from anyone who has tried it and whether it came close the the commercial version.

 

[hottpeper13]

With a lite hand on the adjuncts and a hefty amount of Munich malt I get a dubbel flavor with a quad hammer. Barrel aged and a max of 13%, it's a dubbel quad.