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Dry vs Liquid Yeast

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ILBMF

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I'm doing 10 gallon batches of ale and mainly make IPA's and have been using 1 container of White labs WLP001 in a 2000ml stir plate starter. I split the 2000ml starter between two 5.5 gallon carboys and make excellent beer. I recently switched to the Safale US-05 where I use 2 packs per 5.5 gallon carboy (4 packs total) and stopped using the WLP001.

My question is, should I expect the beer to turn out as clean tasting with the dry yeast as opposed to the WLP001? I'd like to hear other thoughts on this subject
 

Hammy71

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One package of 05 is more than enough for each fermenter. 2 is way over pitching. 05 is the same thing as 001. So your beers will be fine using the dry yeast. I simply love 05 and use it on probably 75% of my brews. If it's an American pale or IPA, it's going to get 05.
 

jholen

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Be careful pitching too much yeast - it can actually lead to beer that doesn't develop flavor as you might expect. A portion of that is caused because the yeast when pitched HAVE to grow. If you create an environment where you pitch so much yeast, enough to where the yeast do not have to grow in order to ferment the beer, the flavor won't develop as it normally would.

I'd say just re-hydrate one pack and pitch that per carboy instead of 2 per.

Will a re-hydrated US-05 batch turn out as good as a WLP-001 batch? Hard to say - the flavor will be different. How much? Again, hard to say. Let us know what you think once it's done!
 

Hammy71

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Be careful pitching too much yeast - it can actually lead to beer that doesn't develop flavor as you might expect. A portion of that is caused because the yeast when pitched HAVE to grow. If you create an environment where you pitch so much yeast, enough to where the yeast do not have to grow in order to ferment the beer, the flavor won't develop as it normally would.

I'd say just re-hydrate one pack and pitch that per carboy instead of 2 per.

Will a re-hydrated US-05 batch turn out as good as a WLP-001 batch? Hard to say - the flavor will be different. How much? Again, hard to say. Let us know what you think once it's done!
US-05 and WLP 001 are essentially the same strain. I doubt you'll be able to tell the difference. And....the rehydration debate (pro/con) will never die. I just dump it on top. :tank:
 

jholen

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I might be naive, but I typically believe Jamil and John - and I remember listening to this very question the other day on a Brewstrong podcast.

I am aware that US-05 and 001 are essentially the same strain, and I never said I would be able to tell a difference. I was just trying to pass on some information that I had thought useful, from two guys who in my opinion are quite knowledgeable.
 
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ILBMF

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As far as the 1 vs 2 packs per carboy...I had a well respected vender here on the forum suggest that with higher gravity beer. I'm using 26 lbs of 2-row along with some specialty grains and sometimes a 1.5 lb corn sugar addition on top of that. I don't claim to know what's right, but I'm getting conflicting info.
 

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US-05 and WLP 001 are essentially the same strain. I doubt you'll be able to tell the difference.
This is a fact. I've split a batch between US-05 and Wyeast 1056, and I didn't perceive a difference.
 

Denny

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Be careful pitching too much yeast - it can actually lead to beer that doesn't develop flavor as you might expect. A portion of that is caused because the yeast when pitched HAVE to grow. If you create an environment where you pitch so much yeast, enough to where the yeast do not have to grow in order to ferment the beer, the flavor won't develop as it normally would.
It's actually the other way around. The same enzyme, acetyl co-A, is used for both cell growth and ester production. when it's doing one of those, it doesn't do the other. So, if you overpitch, there's no need for cell growth and the enzyme produces esters. If you underpitch, the enzyme goes to cell growth and you get less esters. This is to some degree dependent on yeast strain, but in general that's how it works.
 

Yooper

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As far as the 1 vs 2 packs per carboy...I had a well respected vender here on the forum suggest that with higher gravity beer. I'm using 26 lbs of 2-row along with some specialty grains and sometimes a 1.5 lb corn sugar addition on top of that. I don't claim to know what's right, but I'm getting conflicting info.
Consult mrmalty.com's yeast pitching calculator. http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

The thing is, if you were brewing a 1.075 beer before with only one package and one 2000 ml starter with 10 gallons, that would be severely underpitching. But using 2.5 packages of dry yeast (TOTAL) in the same 10 gallons is more than sufficient.

Proper pitch rate is crucial, whether using liquid OR dry yeast.
 

jholen

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It's actually the other way around. The same enzyme, acetyl co-A, is used for both cell growth and ester production. when it's doing one of those, it doesn't do the other. So, if you overpitch, there's no need for cell growth and the enzyme produces esters. If you underpitch, the enzyme goes to cell growth and you get less esters. This is to some degree dependent on yeast strain, but in general that's how it works.
Ah, maybe I misunderstood the two of them.

No growth required = lots of esters? ie. more flavor in that regard.
 

TopherM

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I've heard many experts say that 10-15 years ago, it was much easier to produce consistent strains of liquid yeast than it was dry yeast. Today, however, dry yeast are every bit as consistent as liquid yeast.

If you don't go through the proper procedures to control pitch rates with liquid yeast starters, you are MUCH better off just pitching dry yeast, as a single packet of dry yeast has a viable cell count for a 5-10 gallon batch, whereas just pitching a single vial of liquid yeast is usually WAYYYY underpitching, shocking and overworking the yeast.

So, there is no arguement that it is better to use liquid yeast if you are calculating pitch rates and making proper starters, but if you ARE NOT your beer will likely be better with dry yeast, and your wallet will thank you for it!!!
 

osagedr

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This is a fact. I've split a batch between US-05 and Wyeast 1056, and I didn't perceive a difference.
Me too, in an APA. Both turned out really well. I generally use liquid if I have the time to do a starter, but have zero problem rehydrating dry yeast and pitching it. Either way, I will expect better beer to be made from the slurry that results.
 

BrewKnurd

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It's actually the other way around. The same enzyme, acetyl co-A, is used for both cell growth and ester production. when it's doing one of those, it doesn't do the other. So, if you overpitch, there's no need for cell growth and the enzyme produces esters. If you underpitch, the enzyme goes to cell growth and you get less esters. This is to some degree dependent on yeast strain, but in general that's how it works.
Interesting, this is the first time I've heard this. I've always gone with what Wyeast and white labs have on their sites, which is the opposite, that low pitch rates result in more esters: http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-pitch-rates.cfm and http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_FAQ.html

To further complicate, I did find a paper from the Journal of the Institute of brewing that showed that overall ester production had something of a U shape, with high points at the highest and lowest pitching rate, and lower values for intermediate rates. One specific ester, isoamyl acetate, showed a significant drop in production from the lowest pitching rate to the highest.

In summary, this stuff is complicated. ;)
 

Shooter

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US-05 can sometimes add a subtle stone fruit flavor to a beer. To me, it seems like apricot. I haven't normally gotten that with WLP001 or 1056. In certain hoppy beers, I actually think it complements the hops. In bold flavored beers it's subtle enough that I don't really notice it. I use it and S-04 pretty regularly, along with Nottingham. If I was doing something with a very delicate flavor, I might look to one of the liquid yeasts.
 

Denny

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Me too, in an APA. Both turned out really well. I generally use liquid if I have the time to do a starter, but have zero problem rehydrating dry yeast and pitching it. Either way, I will expect better beer to be made from the slurry that results.
Me, too, and I could perceive a difference. A small difference, but the 05 was definitely fruitier.
 

Denny

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Interesting, this is the first time I've heard this. I've always gone with what Wyeast and white labs have on their sites, which is the opposite, that low pitch rates result in more esters: http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-pitch-rates.cfm and http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_FAQ.html

To further complicate, I did find a paper from the Journal of the Institute of brewing that showed that overall ester production had something of a U shape, with high points at the highest and lowest pitching rate, and lower values for intermediate rates. One specific ester, isoamyl acetate, showed a significant drop in production from the lowest pitching rate to the highest.

In summary, this stuff is complicated. ;)
Isoamyl acetate, which gives hefeweizen the banana flavor, is one of the exceptions. Generally, hefe yeasts are "exempt" from the rule for some reason. I fist heard the info from Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand many years ago. http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/yeast-growth . At NHC in Seattle this summer, Neva Parker of WhiteLabs said the same thing. If you're an AHA member, you can her presentation here http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...08 Fermentation Mythbusters - Neva Parker.mp3
 

BrewKnurd

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Isoamyl acetate, which gives hefeweizen the banana flavor, is one of the exceptions. Generally, hefe yeasts are "exempt" from the rule for some reason. I fist heard the info from Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand many years ago. http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/yeast-growth . At NHC in Seattle this summer, Neva Parker of WhiteLabs said the same thing. If you're an AHA member, you can her presentation here http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...08 Fermentation Mythbusters - Neva Parker.mp3
In looking at the Clayton Cone bit, I'm wondering if one of the key things is: "Anything that inhibits or slows down yeast growth usually causes an increase in ester production: low nutrient, low O2. It has been noted that a drop in available O2 from 8 ppm down to 3 ppm can cause a four fold increase in esters."


Say you have a high pitch rate. Less O2 and nutrients are necessary for the replication phase, because there's just less replication required. Meanwhile, if you have a low pitch rate, more of both are required, and perhaps that makes it more likely that you get into an area where yeast growth slows due to limited O2 or nutrients, thereby causing the increase production of esters?

Just thinking out loud. Will listen to Neva's talk when I'm back home.
 

Devin

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US-05 can sometimes add a subtle stone fruit flavor to a beer. To me, it seems like apricot.
I have noticed the same thing. I only have 6 brews under my belt, and I have used 05 for all of them. This flavor that you mentioned is one reason I am going to finally try a liquid yeast out on my next brew.
 

KISS Brew

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Me, too, and I could perceive a difference. A small difference, but the 05 was definitely fruitier.
I know that US-05 fermented low (like 61-62) gives an odd fruity flavor, and I've never tried that with 1056 or 001.

Either way, if you perceived a difference, there probably is one. But it's slight enough so amateurs like me don't always notice :D
 

Hammy71

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I know that US-05 fermented low (like 61-62) gives an odd fruity flavor, and I've never tried that with 1056 or 001.

Either way, if you perceived a difference, there probably is one. But it's slight enough so amateurs like me don't always notice :D
Agreed. 05 fermented at low temps does give some off (to me) flavors. Fermented at 68 degrees....nothing. Now 04 fermented at anything close to high 60 equals nasty to me. It needs to ferment really low for an ale yeast.
 

Denny

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In looking at the Clayton Cone bit, I'm wondering if one of the key things is: "Anything that inhibits or slows down yeast growth usually causes an increase in ester production: low nutrient, low O2. It has been noted that a drop in available O2 from 8 ppm down to 3 ppm can cause a four fold increase in esters."


Say you have a high pitch rate. Less O2 and nutrients are necessary for the replication phase, because there's just less replication required. Meanwhile, if you have a low pitch rate, more of both are required, and perhaps that makes it more likely that you get into an area where yeast growth slows due to limited O2 or nutrients, thereby causing the increase production of esters?

Just thinking out loud. Will listen to Neva's talk when I'm back home.
That makes a lot of sense to me. I guess that's kinda scary....:)
 

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I'm lost here. Are any of us convinced that overpitching usually leads to esters? I had thought underpitching stressed the yeast (though now I'm not sure it makes sense that it would...you're just putting them in a larger environment, why should they be stressed?) and thus produced esters.

I tend to lean towards overpitching, sometimes even a whole harvested cake. Can't say I've noticed many issues with esters except one US-05 ferm (repitch) that was cooler and came out with some slight banana aroma/flavor. I also detect banana in Bud Light these days though :drunk:
 

Denny

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I'm lost here. Are any of us convinced that overpitching usually leads to esters? I had thought underpitching stressed the yeast (though now I'm not sure it makes sense that it would...you're just putting them in a larger environment, why should they be stressed?) and thus produced esters.

I tend to lean towards overpitching, sometimes even a whole harvested cake. Can't say I've noticed many issues with esters except one US-05 ferm (repitch) that was cooler and came out with some slight banana aroma/flavor. I also detect banana in Bud Light these days though :drunk:
I'm convinced that if you overpitch enough you will increase ester production.
 
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