Done with liquid yeast

[moreb33rplz]

Dry all the way bebe

 

[Closet Fermenter]

What about repitching on the slurry? That would drive the cost per pack down even more for those multi packs. Likewise, it would "extend" the life of that $85 yeast brick too.



I too haven't used liquid in a while. The last two beers are an exception as I couldn't find dry versions (Imperial's Urkel and Que Bueno), but for the most part this past month was the first time I've broke out the flask and stir plate. I don't even rehydrate anymore. Sprinkle, shake/oxygenate, and go.

Dry yeast is pretty durable. I had a club member give me a bunch of expired yeast packets (some I still have) he planned on throwing away. I stepped up a pack of 3 year expired Bry-97 to use in an IPA and it turned out great. Those little buggers are more resilient than we realize.

I don’t know how the two compare, but I recently used a pack of wine yeast that had expired 10 years ago. It worked just fine. It’s not something I would recommend you depend on, but I ran across the yeast in my cooler and decided to give my old recipe a try. Yes, they are durable if you treat them right.

 

[Spivey24]

I would like nothing more than to sprinkle some dry yeast on the wort and be done, but with the few side by sides I have done with liquid vs dry, the liquids have come out ahead. There was just a slight staleness to the dry. That being said, it is almost impossible to do apples to apples with different yeasts, as there are so many variables. The dry yeast batches did improve a little after longer keg conditioning, but still were not great. For now I will continue to torture my self with starters, but may try some newer dry yeasts.

 

[SFC Rudy]

I brewed a Baltic porter on Monday. Didn’t realize that my yeast expired in May 2021. Pitched it anyway and 12 hours later bubbling away like it was a brand new packet of yeast.

 

[tracer bullet]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/top-5-dry-yeasts.700969/
I thought this older dry yeast thread my be worth a link here.

 

[Cloud Surfer]

I started out with dry yeast because it was simple and available. I make a lot of yeast driven Belgians and wheat beers, and I could see the improvement when I went to liquid yeast with those. I’ve been blending liquid yeast strains for a while now and really like the results. My old dry yeast fermented Imperial Stouts and Barley Wines don’t taste nearly as complex as the blended liquid yeast beers I’m making now. So I’m almost 100% liquid yeast these days. I just won my first champion brewer of show, and I do approach my beer making with a competitive spirit, and for me personally the liquid yeast helps me achieve that.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I started out with dry yeast because it was simple and available. I make a lot of yeast driven Belgians and wheat beers, and I could see the improvement when I went to liquid yeast with those. I’ve been blending liquid yeast strains for a while now and really like the results. My old dry yeast fermented Imperial Stouts and Barley Wines don’t taste nearly as complex as the blended liquid yeast beers I’m making now. So I’m almost 100% liquid yeast these days. I just won my first champion brewer of show, and I do approach my beer making with a competitive spirit, and for me personally the liquid yeast helps me achieve that.

That’s great! I really think that’s fantastic. I came to brewing from an entirely different angle. I despised the overpriced, underflavored beer at the local stores. Craft beers were not a thing, at least where I live, 30 years ago. I will confess, those first beers I made back then were not all that great, but surpassing store quality was not a very high bar. I only used dry yeast then, and I was not even aware that liquid yeasts were available. It really wasn’t until the last few years that I learned about liquid yeasts, (yeah, I’m that backwards).
I’ve never had any motivation to produce a beer for competition. I’m glad others do and produce these great recipes that they (sometimes) share. Over the years, I’ve run into folks who brew, and start talking about all the different recipes they have/are trying. Me, I have a couple that are “decent”, so I make them over & over again.
I’m reminded of the “Brother Dave Gardner” piece where “Little David” is playing his ukulele at high noon, in the shade of the Great Pyramid. ()
A friend comments to him; “I notice when others play, they move all around playing different chords, but you just play the same chord over and over.” To which Little David replies; “Well them other cats are looking for it; I flat out found it!”

It takes all kinds, and brewing & brewers certainly have their varieties!

Brew on! Cheers!

 

[Broothru]

OK, I’ll be the contrarian. Conditionally.

I still prefer liquid yeast, while at the same time acknowledging dry yeast’s superior durability and easy of use. I recently had a fermentation (American Pale Ale) that I used Wyeast 1217-PC from a harvested 2nd generation propagation. It was about 4 months old, so I did a viability check (it was good) followed by a two step-up build with 250 ml 1.020 SG wort and 500 ml 1.038 SG wort. Pitched around 1400 ml of krauzening starter into 6.3 gallons.

Fermentation was normal until it slowed to a near standstill 4~5 days later at 1.015 SG. Predicted SG was 1.009 based on an FFT. Conditions (temperature) had been optimal, but gravity didn’t change for the next three days. The beer was too sweet. Even after increasing to 70F, nothing changed.

Rather than dump, I broke protocol and sprinkled two sachets of Lallemand BRY-97 on top, resealed the fermenter, and had renewed activity by the next morning. The fermentation stopped at 1.005. I had to check it twice.

 

[Bassman2003]

Broo,

I think your example points out that liquid yeast needs to be handled properly and be fresh if one wants a successful outcome. Clearly your 4 month old yeast was not as fresh and viable as thought. That is an advantage of dry yeast as it can be stored and stay viable as well as maybe being less expensive to pitch plenty of cells. If you had pitched some more fresh liquid yeast at the end the outcome would have been similar. The downside to dry yeast is that the process of drying harms the cells. In the end, it is convenience vs quality to some degree.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Jamil Zainasheff did a "Zymurgy Live" presentation (Aug 25, 2023) titled '"Fermentation Frontiers" that may be of interest.

 

[Deadalus]

OK, I’ll be the contrarian. Conditionally.

I still prefer liquid yeast, while at the same time acknowledging dry yeast’s superior durability and easy of use. I recently had a fermentation (American Pale Ale) that I used Wyeast 1217-PC from a harvested 2nd generation propagation. It was about 4 months old, so I did a viability check (it was good) followed by a two step-up build with 250 ml 1.020 SG wort and 500 ml 1.038 SG wort. Pitched around 1400 ml of krauzening starter into 6.3 gallons.

Fermentation was normal until it slowed to a near standstill 4~5 days later at 1.015 SG. Predicted SG was 1.009 based on an FFT. Conditions (temperature) had been optimal, but gravity didn’t change for the next three days. The beer was too sweet. Even after increasing to 70F, nothing changed.

Rather than dump, I broke protocol and sprinkled two sachets of Lallemand BRY-97 on top, resealed the fermenter, and had renewed activity by the next morning. The fermentation stopped at 1.005. I had to check it twice.

I'm wondering solely about the math...two steps with 250ml and 500ml is 750 ml isn't it? Was there some volume in the 2nd gen harvested?

 

[Yesfan]

Jamil Zainasheff did a "Zymurgy Live" presentation (Aug 25, 2023) titled '"Fermentation Frontiers" that may be of interest.

Link? I'd like to check that out.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I use liquid yeast with starter on all my beers nowadays

I find lag time too long with dry yeast

With active liquid starters I'm bubbling within 4 hours max

 

[crippled1]

Lallemand munich classic is now my favorite yeast for hefeweizen.
I just mix it in when transferring to the fermenter.
Dry yeast is all I use. It’s cheaper, has longer shelf life and is so easy to use since I can skip the starter.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Link?

From the AHA home page, it's under the "Events & Competitions" menu item.

Direct links:

• Zymurgy Live Archives Archive
• Fermentation Frontiers: Pro Tips with Jamil Zainasheff

 

[lumpher]

I think I've only ever used maybe 10 liquid yeasts ever; it's always been dry otherwise. When I started all I could get in my LHBS was dry: Nottingham, Windsor, US05, and WB06, so that's when I got used to the ease of them. I just pitch straight on top of the wort, or sometimes I use a yeast cake. I just now kegged an IPA on top of a Cali yeast cake.

 

[Yesfan]

From the AHA home page, it's under the "Events & Competitions" menu item.

Direct links:

• Zymurgy Live Archives Archive
• Fermentation Frontiers: Pro Tips with Jamil Zainasheff

Thank you!

Looks like I have to re-up my membership to see it. No big deal. I've been meaning to do that anyways.

 

[Broothru]

I'm wondering solely about the math...two steps with 250ml and 500ml is 750 ml isn't it? Was there some volume in the 2nd gen harvested?

Yes, I only separated a portion of the supernatant, plus the initial bulk of the settled yeast cake. So, say the slurry was 400 ml, plus 250 ml 1.020, plus 500 ml 1.038, plus some undecanted supernatant is something ‘north’ of 1,000 ml but less than 1,500 ml.

 

[jcav]

Interesting, when I first started brewing 21 years ago I used dry yeast for the first several batches. I then tried liquid yeast and back then for my taste at least it was night and day so much better than dry. Since then I always use liquid yeast and I always make a starter on a stir plate. Maybe someday I will try today's dry yeasts and see if I still like liquid over dry. That is what makes this hobby so unique and personal, you do what you like and prefer and there is no only one right way to do things but many.

John

 

[dmtaylor]

With active liquid starters I'm bubbling within 4 hours max

That's called an "overpitch".

 

[day_trippr]

lol! Well, maybe, but if he's pitching at high krausen it's possibly legit

Cheers!

 

[Bassman2003]

I see what you are saying DM - you need some growth for flavor development. It is a fine line and style dependent as well. I would say 8-12 hours for a 5 gallon batch is probably the sweet spot for most beer styles. 4 hours does show a lot of cells already going to town. But for a clean lager, might not be a bad thing at all.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

That's called an "overpitch".

I'm using beersmith yeast calculator for proper target cells. I usually do err on the side of pitching more than less. 2 liters for most ales or 3 liters for lagers (depending on gravity). If I'm making a Belgian or Heffe where I want to be less generous with pitch rate, I'll do a smaller starter.

I make a starter a few days before brewing, let it go about 12 hours on a stirplate, then crash in fridge, decant on brewday

I siphon the first bit of cooled wort into the pitcher with dacanted yeast and shake it up a bit before pitching the whole thing. I think this step probably gets it going a little quicker

I want to give my wort the least amount of time for staling reactions to occur as possible. Active yeast = quicker O2 pickup and less risk for staling

on a homebrew scale its pretty tricky to massively overpitch unless you're going directly on a cake. Also, the numbers on those calculators are probably a little low (unless the yeast is in perfect shape). Who knows what shape my bag of yeast is actually in after I receive it with an ice pack from morebeer. I generally aim for 1/3 more cells than what the calculators recommend to be conservative

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I'm not totally pooping in dry yeast btw. There's many advantages to it especially larger cell count & longer shelf life, you can skip the extra work of a starter too.

Homebrewers should pick whatever is best suited for their process and goals in the hobby.

Dry yeast can make amazing beer too, it just doesn't meet my current goals for most of the styles I'm making nowadays. I've made many great beers with dry yeast in the past, including beers that have won ribbons.

I even made an all extract American Barelywine with dry yeast last year that took a 1st place ribbon in a local competition. I needed a vacation from all the LODO B.S. I've been doing and wanted a quick & painless brewday. This is a style that does well with some oxidation though. I used two packs of Notty in 1.090 OG wort

Less work (& less $$$) with still excellent beer is a definite advantage of dry yeast.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I may have jinxed myself on this one, LOL

My wyeast 2206 starter hasn't shown any signs of activity 12 hours after making the starter (been at room temp in the 70s)

First time using this yeast, but all my other starters are usually fully replicated between 12 & 18 hours

Bunk pack or just weird yeast? On another thread, I saw other folks have similar issues with this yeast being a slow start.

If I had some 34/70 on hand, I'd certainly use it to save the day

 

[Bassman2003]

Tough to tell without knowing the age and handling of the yeast packet through the supply chain. 2206 is a yeast that some think has changed from an earlier form for the worse. Used to be seen as a great starter and finisher with great flavor. Some think it is just less in all categories now. Hope it goes well for you.

The variability from shipping and handling is the big downside of liquid yeast. We are kind of powerless at the homebrew level outside of building up yeast cells ourselves.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Tough to tell without knowing the age and handling of the yeast packet through the supply chain. 2206 is a yeast that some think has changed from an earlier form for the worse. Used to be seen as a great starter and finisher with great flavor. Some think it is just less in all categories now. Hope it goes well for you.

The variability from shipping and handling is the big downside of liquid yeast. We are kind of powerless at the homebrew level outside of building up yeast cells ourselves.

Any opinion on WLP 820? They've got it at my LHBS

Think this one is the same origin as 2206 and this is in the description

"The first generation of this strain can be slow, so we encourage using a larger initial culture or scheduling longer fermentation and conditioning times."

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single?id=222&style_type=2&type=YEAST

 

[IslandLizard]

Any opinion on WLP 820? They've got it at my LHBS

I've used it for Märzens. Produces good flavor in malty lagers. It leaves a little extra sweetness that helps with their flavor profile, but nothing cloying.

As they say in the description (below), she can be a bit slow in her first generation. My notes say, it took over a week to get the first round starter from a single Perfect-Pitch pack, 2-3 months old. She's been progressing fine after that. Maybe she's just slow waking up from dormancy.

Fermentation itself was fine, typically what you'd expect with a Lager. No detectable sulphur.

Here's White Labs' description:
This strain is ideal for producing malty lagers. Residual sweetness further helps promote malt nuances while contributing to a balanced finish. The first generation of this strain can be slow, so we encourage using a larger initial culture or scheduling longer fermentation and conditioning times. Great for lagers with a wide gravity range including bocks, doppelbocks, märzens, Oktoberfests and American amber lagers.

Is it any better than 34/70?
Possibly! Just giving that extra, rich, complex maltiness maybe worth it. As long as you're not in big hurry to brew it.

 

[Bassman2003]

I think 2206 would be cleaner, less malty than WLP 820. I have not used either very much but the 2206 beers I made were fine, just kind of 'boring' they were so clean.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I've used it for Märzens. Produces good flavor in malty lagers. It leaves a little extra sweetness that helps with their flavor profile, but nothing cloying.

As they say in the description (below), she can be a bit slow in her first generation. My notes say, it took over a week to get the first round starter from a single Perfect-Pitch pack, 2-3 months old. She's been progressing fine after that. Maybe she's just slow waking up from dormancy.

Fermentation itself was fine, typically what you'd expect with a Lager. No detectable sulphur.

Here's White Labs' description:
This strain is ideal for producing malty lagers. Residual sweetness further helps promote malt nuances while contributing to a balanced finish. The first generation of this strain can be slow, so we encourage using a larger initial culture or scheduling longer fermentation and conditioning times. Great for lagers with a wide gravity range including bocks, doppelbocks, märzens, Oktoberfests and American amber lagers.

Is it any better than 34/70?
Possibly! Just giving that extra, rich, complex maltiness maybe worth it. As long as you're not in big hurry to brew it.

Great feedback thank you! Since I'm planning to brew a malty fall lager on Sunday this one is out of the question

Any experience on WLP 920? This one seems promising from the description

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single?id=232&style_type=2&type=YEAST
-------------------

Old Bavarian Lager Yeast​

• 

ATTENUATION :​

66% - 73%

FLOCCULATION :​

Medium

ALCOHOL TOLERANCE :​

Medium (5-10%)

FERMENTATION TEMPERATURE :​

50° - 55° F
10° - 13° C

STA1 :​

Negative
BUY NOW

DESCRIPTION​

From Southern Germany, this yeast finishes malty with a slight ester profile. Use in beers such as Oktoberfests, bocks, and dark lagers.