does all grain beer taste better than extract? or is it just an experience thing?

[NordeastBrewer77]

AH HA!!!!

<jumps off couch and manically points finger at computer screen>

You just said "MASH"! So you're saying that the best way to brew extract is to not brew all extract. Gotcha!

(But seriously, I have no dog in this... some of the best brews I've done have been extract. My BIAB brews have ranged from awesome to undrinkable mistakes. Extract is a LOT easier to achieve a baseline of consistency with. It's more forgiving.)

Ultimately, it's all beer...

Ha ha ha!! Nice! Yeah, one of the "tricks" is to throw in a little base malt into your steep and make sure you steep in the 150ºs. Even w/o that, just following some of the other good rules like late or flameout extract adds, not using LME unless you know it's fresh fresh, not scorching your extract when you add it, etc. will make for a good extract beer.

 

[Mozart]

I know it's a little OT, but, what's better for fermenting beer? Glass carboy or food-grade plastic buckets?

(Ducking and running!)



Cheers!

 

[Shooter]

I know it's a little OT, but, what's better for fermenting beer? Glass carboy or food-grade plastic buckets?

(Ducking and running!)



Cheers!

Do it in your bathtub, nothing more to buy that way.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Care to expand of the little to no LME part? I'm just getting into brewing and I'm going with extracts to start. My first two kits have been DME only, but it wasn't on purpose, just ended up that way. What is it (apart from the LME being old) that would be reason to avoid it?

The old part for sure. Also, it's a lot easier to scorch, and IME it seems to degrade faster in the beer. I'm not saying don't use it, you need to since Munich, rye and Maris Otter extracts only come in LME form. Just make sure your source has fresh stuff and that it's always handled properly; i.e. stored in the fridge and added late (or after flameout). I've made great beers with LME, all LME in fact, but if misused (or stale stuff is used) it's the extract that'll give you that twang.

 

[Kozzer]

When you guys talk about 'fresh' for LME/DME, what sort of time are you talking? Is it reasonable to assume that extract kits from the LHBS is fairly fresh?

Lastly, if the LHBS will allow you to mill the grains in store, how long is it 'fresh' for? Should you brew the same or next day, or would it hold for a week or more if sealed/refrigerated/etc?

For context, I'm a total newbie, and am still on my 1st batch (2nd batch brewing tonight), and I want to learn as much as possible!

 

[Mozart]

Lastly, if the LHBS will allow you to mill the grains in store, how long is it 'fresh' for? Should you brew the same or next day, or would it hold for a week or more if sealed/refrigerated/etc?

For context, I'm a total newbie, and am still on my 1st batch (2nd batch brewing tonight), and I want to learn as much as possible!

Milled grains can stay fresh for quite some time so long as they're stored in an airtight container.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/how-long-do-milled-grains-stay-fresh-194087/

 

[Shooter]

When you guys talk about 'fresh' for LME/DME, what sort of time are you talking? Is it reasonable to assume that extract kits from the LHBS is fairly fresh?

Lastly, if the LHBS will allow you to mill the grains in store, how long is it 'fresh' for? Should you brew the same or next day, or would it hold for a week or more if sealed/refrigerated/etc?

For context, I'm a total newbie, and am still on my 1st batch (2nd batch brewing tonight), and I want to learn as much as possible!

If they are a busy shop, they're probably going through their bulk supply relatively quickly.

Once grains are crushed, I try to use them within a couple of weeks.

 

[Shooter]

Milled grains can stay fresh for quite some time so long as they're stored in an airtight container.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/how-long-do-milled-grains-stay-fresh-194087/

Yes, airtight would be better, mine tend to stay in the paper bag they were milled into.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

When you guys talk about 'fresh' for LME/DME, what sort of time are you talking? Is it reasonable to assume that extract kits from the LHBS is fairly fresh?

Depends on their turnover. A good shop will tell you how long their stuff's been in stock for.

Lastly, if the LHBS will allow you to mill the grains in store, how long is it 'fresh' for? Should you brew the same or next day, or would it hold for a week or more if sealed/refrigerated/etc?

If they're not refrigerated, use it as soon as you can. Remember, there are commercial breweries that buy milled grains by the pallet and sit on them for weeks at a time. If you can, fridge 'em. If not, I say you're good inside a couple few weeks for sure.

 

[Kozzer]

Couple weeks sounds great! I may try a BIAB after I get through the kits I already own. My main thing is that I don't have room for more equipment, so extracts are good for that. But BIAB seems to be a decent compromise.

e: such quick responses! thanks, guys!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

BIAB is awesome. No extra stuff to buy if you don't want to. I still BIAB all my smaller batches unless they're crazy high gravity, no need to break out all the equipment for 6 or 7 lbs of grain.

 

[unionrdr]

Being a retiree,PB/PM BIAB has been great for me. The only extra thing I had to buy was a nylon paint strainer bag. Unfortunately,it's 18" x 32",like for a taller narrower kettle then mine. When I order on the 1st,I'm getting the 24" x 24" nylon bag,hopefully in fine or medium mesh. My current one is course mesh. Not sure if fine might restrict flow though in the kettle?...
Anyway,I mash 5-6lbs of grain,on average,in 2 gallons of water,sparging with 1.5G to get 3.5 gallons boil volume in my 5 gallon kettle.

 

[Rhumbline]

I've noticed that since I started brewing I am much more critical of commercial brews. I'm not fooling myself into thinking that I brew world class beers, but being completely honest, I'm more satisfied with my humble brews than I am with what is available on the market.

What I'm getting at is, experiment with advanced techniques if you want, but don't be afraid of saying that the simple stuff is quite good. Sometimes a well cooked hamburger is more satisfying than beef wellington with a black truffle and red wine reduction.

The above only applies if you are brewing for your own enjoyment. Otherwise, you gotta appeal to the masses.

p

 

[andy6026]

How long does all grain take from start to pinching the yeast? From what i understand its takes a lot longer than extract? How much longer?

Good question. It certainly does take longer... but by how much can vary of course depending on your equipment, the recipe, etc. I've only brewed 4 AG batches so far, but here's some general time lines (and I'm going off the top of my head here so these are just guestimations):

1) Get out the grain mill, a table to attach it to, some containers, measuring scale, etc, measure the grain, mill it, brush out the mill, put the stuff away that I took out. Approximately 1 hour.

2) Measure and heat strike water (which could be done while some of the above is going on, but so far I've kept it separate). Including getting out the kettle, various utensils/tools, burner, etc. Time here will significantly depend on your burner and quantity of strike water. With my equipment approx 30 mins.

3) Mash in and start measuring and heating sparge water. About an hour.

4) Conduct the sparge, about 15-20 mins.

5) Boil the wort, approx 1 hour

6) Chill it to pitching temp, (time depends on your chilling method). For me about 15 minutes.

7) Get the beer into the fermenter, aerate it and pitch. 10 mins?

8) Take it to its resting place and hook up a blow off tube. 5 mins.

9) Clean up. More stuff to clean up - the mash tun, likely a few more utensils, dispense with the spent grain. And all the normal stuff has to be cleaned too (as you would with extract). 1 hour or more.

What's that total, about 5 or 5+1/2 hours?

That's seems about right for me, 5-6 hours for an AG brew day. By the end of the day I'm tired, which is usually compounded by the fact that I've had a few beers throughout the day. And the worst part of brew day is the clean up which is unfortunately at the end. Certainly some time can be shaved off that... for example I could be heating strike water while I'm milling, but I don't yet do that. I could be cleaning the mash-tun while the wort is cooking, but I don't yet do that (God I'm an procrastinator at times). So it's probably possible to do the same recipe in just over 4 hours. Some recipes take longer - you might need to mash longer, or boil worth longer, etc.

Also, these guys that have tiered stands set up probably shave off some time as well as effort in lifting.

With extract you skip the milling and mashing altogether. You also don't need to boil nearly as long - perhaps in some cases not at all. If you were efficient you could probably brew 2 batches of extract in about as much time as it takes to do one AG.

But it's fun...

 

[MMJfan]

I've noticed that since I started brewing I am much more critical of commercial brews. I'm not fooling myself into thinking that I brew world class beers, but being completely honest, I'm more satisfied with my humble brews than I am with what is available on the market.

What I'm getting at is, experiment with advanced techniques if you want, but don't be afraid of saying that the simple stuff is quite good. Sometimes a well cooked hamburger is more satisfying than beef wellington with a black truffle and red wine reduction.

The above only applies if you are brewing for your own enjoyment. Otherwise, you gotta appeal to the masses.

I too have noticed that I actually enjoy my homebrews more than some of my favorite craft beers. Bell's Oberon was one of my favorite beers before I started homebrewing. I have since found an awesome Oberon clone in this forum and I'm amazed at how much more flavor my clone has! A couple of weeks ago I got some Oberon on draft and it just didn't compare to my clone.

There's also a small brewery that opened up in the town I live in. When it first opened I was all over it and the brews were outstanding. But I can't hardly drink their beers anymore since I've started doing AG homebrewing. And I have friends who also tell me that my beers kick the local brewery's ass.

 

[KLMtheReal]

Sorry I'm bumping an old thread, 3 days ago I made my first BIAB brew after a year of prehopped extracts, and I see that almost everyone in this thread mentions a partial mash using extracts and no one mentioned a comparison between AG and prehopped goop.

My thoughts after my first AG:

-the moment we added our base malts (some 7kg pale ale malt) the kettle started to smell exactly like the dme I was using when brewing with kits. This soon changed when we added the specialty grains and hops. The resulting wort smelled a lot fresher than a prehopped kit, and overall more like something that will turn out to be beer (I always found the goop smell kinda off-putting). The airlock fusels smell a lot clearer. I can smell mostly the hops and the fermentation kicked in smoother.

Another thought is that with AG you can have a more controlled experience. With beer kits we could hardly reach the recommended pitching temperature even by waiting 15 hours or so, where we would pitch our yeast to 26°C instead of recommended 18-23°C mark, just so we can avoid any infection. But we where risking off flavours that way. After boiling we had our wort to 19°C for yeast pitching in no time. Not to mention that if you have the time to do AG, that's actually the way of making true beer from start to finish anyway, if someone comes across this thread, try to go all grain

 

[JohnSand]

Congratulations on your first all grain batch, it's a bit of magic. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[KLMtheReal]

Congratulations on your first all grain batch, it's a bit of magic. Let us know how it turns out.

Thanks I appreciate it! It really was my most awesome experience since I started brewing, I was waiting to go all grain for a very long time. I'll surely give an update!

 

[user 254557]

I've been doing all grain for a couple of years and yes I think it does. Case in point, I bought an extract irish red ale kit recently just to keep the pipeline flowing. It tastes like an extract ale (with that weird off flavor I have only ever gotten from extracts).

I have been in all grain for quite a few years and feel the same way, the extract that I did just this off flavor to it that I didnt like and pushed to all grain faster, which was the best choice IMHO

 

[tellyho]

I haven't drunk an extract brew in many years, but I feel like I can taste the grain more clearly in an AG brew, especially a clean beer like a pilsener.

 

[tellyho]

My brew day with electric brew kettle runs about 4hrs (5 gal batches).

 

[GPP33]

Another thought is that with AG you can have a more controlled experience. With beer kits we could hardly reach the recommended pitching temperature even by waiting 15 hours or so, where we would pitch our yeast to 26°C instead of recommended 18-23°C mark, just so we can avoid any infection. But we where risking off flavours that way. After boiling we had our wort to 19°C for yeast pitching in no time. Not to mention that if you have the time to do AG, that's actually the way of making true beer from start to finish anyway, if someone comes across this thread, try to go all grain

What does AG have to do with pitching temp? The process of getting sugar (however you choose to do it) is fairly well removed from the process of pitching yeast.

Oh, and technically making beer form start to finish would involve growing barley and hops and then malting the barley, but yes, AG is a lot closer to actually making beer than extract or even more so hopped extract. I equate extract to a box of mac and cheese, AG to starting with actual cheese and dried pasta, the hard core guys make their own pasta and cheese, the farmers however are the only ones that can say they actually made it.

 

[KLMtheReal]

What does AG have to do with pitching temp? The process of getting sugar (however you choose to do it) is fairly well removed from the process of pitching yeast.

Oh, and technically making beer form start to finish would involve growing barley and hops and then malting the barley, but yes, AG is a lot closer to actually making beer than extract or even more so hopped extract. I equate extract to a box of mac and cheese, AG to starting with actual cheese and dried pasta, the hard core guys make their own pasta and cheese, the farmers however are the only ones that can say they actually made it.

I get what you mean. What I wanted to say is that with AG you can actually chill your wort to your desired yeast temp instead of using hot and cold water, a lot of times resulting in hotter/colder wort than desired. If you don't have a frigde that serves cold water or a temp controlled chest freezer it's hit or miss. And what I wanted to say about brewing a beer from start to finish is that you're actually brewing like commercial breweries do.

 

[GPP33]

I get what you mean. What I wanted to say is that with AG you can actually chill your wort to your desired yeast temp instead of using hot and cold water, a lot of times resulting in hotter/colder wort than desired. If you don't have a frigde that serves cold water or a temp controlled chest freezer it's hit or miss. And what I wanted to say about brewing a beer from start to finish is that you're actually brewing like commercial breweries do.

I still don’t understand why you can’t chill extract to the right temp before pitching your yeast. What am I missing?

 

[RM-MN]

I still don’t understand why you can’t chill extract to the right temp before pitching your yeast. What am I missing?

People can chill the wort with extract just as well as with all grain but often the extract brewers are new and don't realize the benefits of doing so and often lack the equipment for chilling. The extract kits that I did never mentioned the importance of chilling to a lower pitching temp, just to cool below 80F.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

I think what KLM is saying is that he did partial boils with extract and was adding water at the end of the boil to cool his wort and bring the volume up to 5G. He was missing his pitching temps using this method and not using a wort chiller

 

[GPP33]

People can chill the wort with extract just as well as with all grain but often the extract brewers are new and don't realize the benefits of doing so and often lack the equipment for chilling. The extract kits that I did never mentioned the importance of chilling to a lower pitching temp, just to cool below 80F.

I think what KLM is saying is that he did partial boils with extract and was adding water at the end of the boil to cool his wort and bring the volume up to 5G. He was missing his pitching temps using this method and not using a wort chiller

Ok, that’s kinda what I suspected. Not necessarily a function of AG, just general knowledge/experience.

 

[KLMtheReal]

Exactly, by using just the basic equipment required to brew a "beer in a can", you can't control your temps as good as you would with AG. If you don't have an immersion chiller the only solution is plain cold water. But even if I had a chiller, I wouldn't stick it in the fermenter without boiling it first. I wouldn't trust a mere starsan spraying. If you get your hands on a chiller, then you'll probably need a kettle and a burner. Then I don't see any reason not moving to All grain

 

[KLMtheReal]

I think what KLM is saying is that he did partial boils with extract and was adding water at the end of the boil to cool his wort and bring the volume up to 5G. He was missing his pitching temps using this method and not using a wort chiller

Just to clarify, I din't mean partial boil in any way, but rather ready, prehopped kits without any grain, just with DME or dextrose directly in the fermenter

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Just to clarify, I din't mean partial boil in any way, but rather ready, prehopped kits without any grain, just with DME or dextrose directly in the fermenter

Can you explain to me how that process works? Are you not boiling anything? As far as i knew even hopped extracts needed to be boiled. Maybe its something specific to Greece.