does all grain beer taste better than extract? or is it just an experience thing?

[tellyho]

My brew day with electric brew kettle runs about 4hrs (5 gal batches).

 

[GPP33]

Another thought is that with AG you can have a more controlled experience. With beer kits we could hardly reach the recommended pitching temperature even by waiting 15 hours or so, where we would pitch our yeast to 26°C instead of recommended 18-23°C mark, just so we can avoid any infection. But we where risking off flavours that way. After boiling we had our wort to 19°C for yeast pitching in no time. Not to mention that if you have the time to do AG, that's actually the way of making true beer from start to finish anyway, if someone comes across this thread, try to go all grain

What does AG have to do with pitching temp? The process of getting sugar (however you choose to do it) is fairly well removed from the process of pitching yeast.

Oh, and technically making beer form start to finish would involve growing barley and hops and then malting the barley, but yes, AG is a lot closer to actually making beer than extract or even more so hopped extract. I equate extract to a box of mac and cheese, AG to starting with actual cheese and dried pasta, the hard core guys make their own pasta and cheese, the farmers however are the only ones that can say they actually made it.

 

[KLMtheReal]

What does AG have to do with pitching temp? The process of getting sugar (however you choose to do it) is fairly well removed from the process of pitching yeast.

Oh, and technically making beer form start to finish would involve growing barley and hops and then malting the barley, but yes, AG is a lot closer to actually making beer than extract or even more so hopped extract. I equate extract to a box of mac and cheese, AG to starting with actual cheese and dried pasta, the hard core guys make their own pasta and cheese, the farmers however are the only ones that can say they actually made it.

I get what you mean. What I wanted to say is that with AG you can actually chill your wort to your desired yeast temp instead of using hot and cold water, a lot of times resulting in hotter/colder wort than desired. If you don't have a frigde that serves cold water or a temp controlled chest freezer it's hit or miss. And what I wanted to say about brewing a beer from start to finish is that you're actually brewing like commercial breweries do.

 

[GPP33]

I get what you mean. What I wanted to say is that with AG you can actually chill your wort to your desired yeast temp instead of using hot and cold water, a lot of times resulting in hotter/colder wort than desired. If you don't have a frigde that serves cold water or a temp controlled chest freezer it's hit or miss. And what I wanted to say about brewing a beer from start to finish is that you're actually brewing like commercial breweries do.

I still don’t understand why you can’t chill extract to the right temp before pitching your yeast. What am I missing?

 

[RM-MN]

I still don’t understand why you can’t chill extract to the right temp before pitching your yeast. What am I missing?

People can chill the wort with extract just as well as with all grain but often the extract brewers are new and don't realize the benefits of doing so and often lack the equipment for chilling. The extract kits that I did never mentioned the importance of chilling to a lower pitching temp, just to cool below 80F.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

I think what KLM is saying is that he did partial boils with extract and was adding water at the end of the boil to cool his wort and bring the volume up to 5G. He was missing his pitching temps using this method and not using a wort chiller

 

[GPP33]

People can chill the wort with extract just as well as with all grain but often the extract brewers are new and don't realize the benefits of doing so and often lack the equipment for chilling. The extract kits that I did never mentioned the importance of chilling to a lower pitching temp, just to cool below 80F.

I think what KLM is saying is that he did partial boils with extract and was adding water at the end of the boil to cool his wort and bring the volume up to 5G. He was missing his pitching temps using this method and not using a wort chiller

Ok, that’s kinda what I suspected. Not necessarily a function of AG, just general knowledge/experience.

 

[KLMtheReal]

Exactly, by using just the basic equipment required to brew a "beer in a can", you can't control your temps as good as you would with AG. If you don't have an immersion chiller the only solution is plain cold water. But even if I had a chiller, I wouldn't stick it in the fermenter without boiling it first. I wouldn't trust a mere starsan spraying. If you get your hands on a chiller, then you'll probably need a kettle and a burner. Then I don't see any reason not moving to All grain

 

[KLMtheReal]

I think what KLM is saying is that he did partial boils with extract and was adding water at the end of the boil to cool his wort and bring the volume up to 5G. He was missing his pitching temps using this method and not using a wort chiller

Just to clarify, I din't mean partial boil in any way, but rather ready, prehopped kits without any grain, just with DME or dextrose directly in the fermenter

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Just to clarify, I din't mean partial boil in any way, but rather ready, prehopped kits without any grain, just with DME or dextrose directly in the fermenter

Can you explain to me how that process works? Are you not boiling anything? As far as i knew even hopped extracts needed to be boiled. Maybe its something specific to Greece.

 

[RM-MN]

Can you explain to me how that process works? Are you not boiling anything? As far as i knew even hopped extracts needed to be boiled. Maybe its something specific to Greece.

Hopped extracts already have the hops boiled to provide the bittering. The only real reason to boil is to provide pasteurization and one doesn't have to boil to provide that. Often boiling is suggested because in the past people lacked decent thermometers and they could still tell if their liquid was hot enough because they could see the boil. Bringing liquid to 160 for 10 seconds pasteurizes. How good is your thermometer?

 

[KLMtheReal]

Can you explain to me how that process works? Are you not boiling anything? As far as i knew even hopped extracts needed to be boiled. Maybe its something specific to Greece.

Hopped extracts already have the hops boiled to provide the bittering. The only real reason to boil is to provide pasteurization and one doesn't have to boil to provide that. Often boiling is suggested because in the past people lacked decent thermometers and they could still tell if their liquid was hot enough because they could see the boil. Bringing liquid to 160 for 10 seconds pasteurizes. How good is your thermometer?

Here in Greece we get the ingredients and equipment from you guys it's exactly the same. Every instruction book from the kits I came across, noob guides and YouTube videos, even the brewshop owner I go to suggests that you should clean and thoroughly sanitize all of your equipment and bring the resulting wort to pitching temperature as fast as possible, then pitch the yeast. No boiling required.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

I understand what hopped extracts are, i have just never used them before. My thermometer works too. I also understand the importance of cleaning and sanitizing. What i wasn't aware of and what you seem to be inferring is that hopped extracts don't need to be boiled. News to me. Thank you for the update!
Cheers

 

[GPP33]

I think the easy thing here is to stay away from pre hopped extracts.

 

[KLMtheReal]

I think the easy thing here is to stay away from pre hopped extracts.

Haha this. The only good that comes out of kit brewing is that you can practice some very important things like sanitation, yeast, bottling, conditioning etc and prepare for the real thing

 

[Druman07]

Just asking?

IMO they are different but not that different taste wise, at least for a beginner. Which is better, that is a matter of opinion. But I enjoy the all grain process more; besides understanding the mash process in general, you get a better understanding of the impact of different grains, how they affect the mash, and ultimately the taste.

 

[Hollywoodpete]

All-grain is cheaper. I am going to need to do a lot more sampling to decide if it is better.

 

[rodeopepper]

How long does all grain take from start to pinching the yeast? From what i understand its takes a lot longer than extract? How much longer?

I have only ever brewed all grain and it takes me 4-5 hours including clean up. My advice is to get an all in one system like the Anvil Foundry.

 

[Jim R]

A 5 gal batch takes me about 4 1/2 - 5 hours including clean up. I often do two 5 gal batches overlapping in the same day as long as I have all my equipment out and this takes me about 7 1/2 - 8 hours (which means the beer then last me twice as long).

 

[wsmith1625]

I started with extract brewing and switched to all grain BIAB. What I like best about all grain is that I am using raw ingredients to make my beer. Good or bad, I own it. With extract, I'm using a vital ingredient which someone else made.

That being said, I also think the taste of my beer improved when switching to all grain. That doesn't mean every all grain batch I brewed turned out amazing. I've had some batches which missed the mark. But they all seem to taste cleaner to me. With my beer, the extract twang was a real thing. I tried to minimize it by doing full volume boils without topping off and also starting with distilled water to keep the minerals in check.

Which ever method you use, you'll be surprised how good your beer turns out. As you fine tune your processes, the quality of your beer will improve with either method.

 

[z-bob]

I have only ever brewed all grain and it takes me 4-5 hours including clean up. My advice is to get an all in one system like the Anvil Foundry.

You know you're replying to a question that was asked 10 years ago? (not necessarily a problem, and now that the thread is awake again we might get some good discussion)

 

[bruce_the_loon]

Well, it woke up in 2018 after 5 years, and again in 2023 after 5 more years. Summat's up, them threads iz organized.

 

[MIWI]

I started with extract brewing and switched to all grain BIAB. What I like best about all grain is that I am using raw ingredients to make my beer. Good or bad, I own it. With extract, I'm using a vital ingredient which someone else made.

That being said, I also think the taste of my beer improved when switching to all grain. That doesn't mean every all grain batch I brewed turned out amazing. I've had some batches which missed the mark. But they all seem to taste cleaner to me. With my beer, the extract twang was a real thing. I tried to minimize it by doing full volume boils without topping off and also starting with distilled water to keep the minerals in check.

Which ever method you use, you'll be surprised how good your beer turns out. As you fine tune your processes, the quality of your beer will improve with eit

I started with extract brewing and switched to all grain BIAB. What I like best about all grain is that I am using raw ingredients to make my beer. Good or bad, I own it. With extract, I'm using a vital ingredient which someone else made.

That being said, I also think the taste of my beer improved when switching to all grain. That doesn't mean every all grain batch I brewed turned out amazing. I've had some batches which missed the mark. But they all seem to taste cleaner to me. With my beer, the extract twang was a real thing. I tried to minimize it by doing full volume boils without topping off and also starting with distilled water to keep the minerals in check.

Which ever method you use, you'll be surprised how good your beer turns out. As you fine tune your processes, the quality of your beer will improve with either method.

I agree with all you stated. I started with extract, my son went from extract to all grain and the same recipe of my extract converted to all grain was a clean malt taste compared to my extract that had a little different malt taste. I switched to BIAB and love the simplicity but still seems not as refined as a all grain batch. Good beer is all about doing the proper procedure and I feel all grain performed properly refined the qualities of a good recipe.

 

[hout17]

I agree with all you stated. I started with extract, my son went from extract to all grain and the same recipe of my extract converted to all grain was a clean malt taste compared to my extract that had a little different malt taste. I switched to BIAB and love the simplicity but still seems not as refined as a all grain batch. Good beer is all about doing the proper procedure and I feel all grain performed properly refined the qualities of a good recipe.

Just to clarify BIAB is all grain it's just a different technique. I notice no difference between it and the batch sparge method I use. I use BIAB for smaller batches and I get the same beer with both methods. So method wise for all grain there is BIAB, batch sparge, no sparge, parti-gyle, and fly sparge.

I also am of the opinion that if you can get fresh extract and have a refined technique it can be just as good as all grain in most cases. You can get that twang with extract that may not be as fresh as it should be meaning LME.

Brew on friends! Cheers!

 

[Squirrels]

To answer the thread question, AG or Extract can make good or bad beer. If I could give my younger me advice, I would have told me that temperature control usually makes the biggest difference in beer quality. Invest in the cold side.

 

[T Murph]

Yes all grain is definitely better and fresh beer from a keg is always better that the stuff in cans. That is untill your buddy shows up with an extract beer he made and canned it using his new canner that is one of the best beers you ever had the pleasure of tasting. Like everything else it's subjective.

 

[govner1]

How long does all grain take from start to pinching the yeast? From what i understand its takes a lot longer than extract? How much longer?

I’ve never pinched my yeast

 

[Mutant]

Macro brewers are almost all extract. Just think about the headaches Budweiser would have to brew with grain in Los Angeles, as they'd have to then transport all the spent grains out of L.A. I'm not convinced Budweiser is a great beer either.

 

[hout17]

Macro brewers are almost all extract. Just think about the headaches Budweiser would have to brew with grain in Los Angeles, as they'd have to then transport all the spent grains out of L.A. I'm not convinced Budweiser is a great beer either.

Something I saw that was crazy cool a few years ago when I toured Coors in Golden, CO was their malting floor. Massive floors with barley in different stages of the process all automated. I was blown away.

 

[RM-MN]

Macro brewers are almost all extract. Just think about the headaches Budweiser would have to brew with grain in Los Angeles, as they'd have to then transport all the spent grains out of L.A. I'm not convinced Budweiser is a great beer either.

You should see the huge grain silos near Fargo, ND with the big Budweiser lettering on the side of them. No, the big macro brewers brew all grain as it cuts costs.

 

[Dancy]

Major competitions have been won with extract recipes. I am far from an expert on why the reported extract twang shows up, at least in some brews but not others. Could it depend on the particular extract used or something in the brewer’s technique? I don’t know.

 

[NSMikeD]

Major competitions have been won with extract recipes. I am far from an expert on why the reported extract twang shows up, at least in some brews but not others. Could it depend on the particular extract used or something in the brewer’s technique? I don’t know.

I have to agree


I would bet that it's not a matter of extract versus grain but rather all the steps taken and not taken. Aside from all grain providing more flexibility in recipe tweaking and the enjoyment many in the hobby have planning a brew, I have to believe that an extract brewer can dial in a brew on level with the best all grain brewer as pointed out in the above post regarding award winning extracts.

Reading this thread about twang is interesting since no one have definitively posted on the so called twang but rather second hand anecdotes. hmmm.

I would gather getting old can of extract would be no different than stale malt grains also sitting around at the LHBS. I think if you were buying quality ingredients, good is good.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Reading this thread about twang is interesting since no one have definitively posted on the so called twang but rather second hand anecdotes.

Yup. There are times when some HomeBrewTalk topics are stuck in the past.

---

For those who missed it, there's an award winning recipe here: New England IPA - Blasphemy - No Boil NEIPA

 

[LostHopper]

In my limited experience (10+ years) there is a greater chance of twang factor when using LME than DME.
I brew all grain but a fast SMASH or SMATH with DME can be a life saver. (Shout out to James Spencer)

 

[bracconiere]

I own it.

straight up gangster talk! but were all friends and mostly not trying do drive bys!


but hell i malt my own, so i got you m'fer!

 

[wsmith1625]

straight up gangster talk! but were all friends and mostly not trying do drive bys!


but hell i malt my own, so i got you m'fer!

You've got us all beat with your gangsta brewing. Hell, I've seen your pics. But if your ever doing a drive by in my hood, bring a six pack.

 

[Somesaymybeerisdrinkable]

If one more opinion helps, the all grain beers I have brewed have tasted better than the extract beers I've made with old LME.

 

[DJL531]

How long does all grain take from start to pinching the yeast? From what i understand its takes a lot longer than extract? How much longer?

It does take longer but I have done extract brews in as little as 90 minutes, depending on volume.

What does take longer in my experience using BIAB, is all the water heating. 4 gallons of mash water will take me 15-20 min. Mash is then an hour. Then the sparge water heating (while mashing) and the sparging process takes me another 15-20 min. Now I have 7 gallons to heat up to boil, 20 min+, then cooling. Even with a chiller pumping ice water in it, after doing a full boil, that adds 90-120 min more.

Basically a 5 gallon batch, all grain, full boil, easily add 3 hours more than partial boil using extract. Then I have more to clean up as well.

Yesterday I spent right at 6 hours do a 5 gallon batch and clean up. This was quicker than my usual.

 

[Miraculix]

All-Grain tastes better, except for those times when Extract tastes better.

I can confirm that based on my own experiences!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I am far from an expert on why the reported extract twang shows up, at least in some brews but not others.

Basic Brewing Radio (Aug 25 / Nov 17 2005) has the information related to ingredients and extract twang.

Process faults (and ingredient storage faults) related to "that extract taste" have been covered in other topics (and other forums, and other forum wikis).

With recipe design, "modern" ideas for recipe design show up topics like "I brewed a favorite recipe today" and "Advanced Extract Brewing". Ideas on when to use different brands of LME/DME can be found in those topics (as well as in other forums and other forum wikis).

Quality "extract-based" recipes can be found in various HomeBrewTalk topics (like "No Boil NEIPA)", magazines (like Zymurgy), and web sites (like CB&B).

---

Looking forward, anticipate more discussion on recipe design with DME and more quality recipes that use DME.

Looking back, expect more repetitious repeating of the results of brewing with stale ingredients (aka extract twang).

edits: typoz and such