brettamuss
Well-Known Member
Just asking?
does all grain beer taste better than extract? or is it just an experience thing?
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Weizenheimer
Well-Known Member
Some will say yes...I say it depends on the style. Some styles/ingredients need to be mashed in where some do not (like rye and oatmeal.) You can make great beers with extract but all grain adds a challenge fun factor to it.
I just got into partial mash,& the nearest I can describe it is "cleaner".
BoomerHarley
Well-Known Member
I've been doing all grain for a couple of years and yes I think it does. Case in point, I bought an extract irish red ale kit recently just to keep the pipeline flowing. It tastes like an extract ale (with that weird off flavor I have only ever gotten from extracts).
masterfool101
Well-Known Member
I'm not an expert, and I've never done my own All Grain brewing. That being said, here is what many people have told me:
1) Generally speaking, you can make just about any beer from extract and either a partial mash or steeping grains. I've made plenty of great tasting beer this way.
2)Some people swear they can taste a "twang" that comes with brewing with extract. I've never tasted this. I consider myself to have a pretty refined palette, and have tasted plenty of extract and AG brews. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist . .. just that I don't taste it.
3) Many of the "taste" improvements people see after they jump to all grain can actually be explained by the fact that when they jump to all grain, they also tend to upgrade their equipment (better burners, better wort chillers, better fermenters, etc.). If you were to upgrade your equipment the same way, and stick to extract, you'd probably notice a very similar quality increase.
4) In the end, the only TRUE advantage of jumping to extract is ultimate control over your final product. YOU determine exactly what is in the beer. You're not relying on someone else's malts. That being said, extracts these days are pretty high quality, and by properly adjusting the amounts you use (as opposed to just using "2 Cans") you can have a pretty similar control process.
1) Generally speaking, you can make just about any beer from extract and either a partial mash or steeping grains. I've made plenty of great tasting beer this way.
2)Some people swear they can taste a "twang" that comes with brewing with extract. I've never tasted this. I consider myself to have a pretty refined palette, and have tasted plenty of extract and AG brews. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist . .. just that I don't taste it.
3) Many of the "taste" improvements people see after they jump to all grain can actually be explained by the fact that when they jump to all grain, they also tend to upgrade their equipment (better burners, better wort chillers, better fermenters, etc.). If you were to upgrade your equipment the same way, and stick to extract, you'd probably notice a very similar quality increase.
4) In the end, the only TRUE advantage of jumping to extract is ultimate control over your final product. YOU determine exactly what is in the beer. You're not relying on someone else's malts. That being said, extracts these days are pretty high quality, and by properly adjusting the amounts you use (as opposed to just using "2 Cans") you can have a pretty similar control process.
brettamuss
Well-Known Member
How long does all grain take from start to pinching the yeast? From what i understand its takes a lot longer than extract? How much longer?
hoppyhoppyhippo
Well-Known Member
Most people say that extract has a bit of a twang, probably comes from the time between converting the sugars to boiling the wort. or could be something else. I think the biggest gain of all-grain is more control over the grains you use. Some grains cannot be steeped nor is there an extract option.
Cordane
Well-Known Member
Set up, mash, run off, boil, cooling, trasferring to fermenter, pitching, clean up. I can get it all done in about 5 hours with my equipment, but the equipment has a lot to do with it. Try to get other stuff done while you're waiting during the mash and boil.
masterfool101
Well-Known Member
A general "brew day" for me (using extract) is about 2 - 3 hours (from when I start laying out my equipment, until I pitch the yeast and cover the fermenter, and clean up)
My friends that brew AG take about 6-8 hours for the same process. Maybe they're slow, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. They have to spend a lot more time on the mash than I do.
My friends that brew AG take about 6-8 hours for the same process. Maybe they're slow, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. They have to spend a lot more time on the mash than I do.
CraigT
Well-Known Member
And also with all grain you have the control over your final gravity by adjusting mash temps. You can make a sweeter fuller bodied beer with higher temp or dryer beer at a lower mash temp
All-Grain tastes better, except for those times when Extract tastes better.
brycelarson
Well-Known Member
All grain isn't better - but you can control it more exactly.
I brewed some extract beers with friends - all with the same base extract. While we were making varied recipes and styles there's something quite similar about the finished product. Three all grain recipes would have been more different and distinct.
A carefully executed extract recipe can and often does win medals at contests.
Personally I can create a beer that more closely meets my tastes and desires with all grain. It's not intrinsically better, it's just closer to what I want to drink.
I brewed some extract beers with friends - all with the same base extract. While we were making varied recipes and styles there's something quite similar about the finished product. Three all grain recipes would have been more different and distinct.
A carefully executed extract recipe can and often does win medals at contests.
Personally I can create a beer that more closely meets my tastes and desires with all grain. It's not intrinsically better, it's just closer to what I want to drink.
brettamuss
Well-Known Member
Does anyone have a easy recipe with instruction? I have wanted to try ag but it is all greek to me!
Extract takes me about three hours. All-grain takes at least six, but that includes cleaning and hauling my gear up and down the stairs for setup and take down, and hauling other pieces of gear back and forth to the garage, I brew on my back patio.
I do partial mash BIAB (with the grain representing more than half of my gravity) but I think that an all grain would be about the same. The mash takes me about an hour and a half from beginning to end. For the majority of that time, I am not actively doing anything because the grains are doing their thing. I use that time to prep for the rest of my brew day. I will use the down time to sanitize my equipment (it is already cleaned but I sanitize stuff then) and collect and measure my hop additions.
My last brew day was right at 3 hours from start to pitching.
My last brew day was right at 3 hours from start to pitching.
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
You can pinch the yeast as early and as often as you like! 
But, since you're likely asking how long it takes to pitch yeast... Well, an all grain brew day does probably take a couple hours longer. Look at it this way:
If you brew extract with steeping grains, you're going to bring your water to 160ish and steep your grains for 20-30 minutes, then bring it up to a boil and add your extract, then boil for an hour and perform your hop additions throughout that hour. Chill at the end of the boil, rack to a fermenter, and pitch. Done.
If you brew with all grain - well, I started to describe a brew day and count up the time, but there's really a lot of variables depending on just what approaches you take to several different aspects of all grain brewing. Suffice it to say that all grain brewing can take 1-3 hours longer, depending on a number of factors, than extract.
BUT - and this is important - regardless of what anyone else will say, brewing from grain will not automatically result in a better finished product. If the brewer knows what he or she is doing, is familiar enough with basic brewing and fermenting processes, and is relatively disciplined, then yes, moving to all grain can provide more flexibility and more options. It can also provide at least a few more areas where we can screw things up, sometimes in little ways, sometimes in big ways (I've been trying to chase down a couple of little problems in my process for a few brews now, for instance - nothing really problematic, but definitely irksome to me).
But, since you're likely asking how long it takes to pitch yeast... Well, an all grain brew day does probably take a couple hours longer. Look at it this way:
If you brew extract with steeping grains, you're going to bring your water to 160ish and steep your grains for 20-30 minutes, then bring it up to a boil and add your extract, then boil for an hour and perform your hop additions throughout that hour. Chill at the end of the boil, rack to a fermenter, and pitch. Done.
If you brew with all grain - well, I started to describe a brew day and count up the time, but there's really a lot of variables depending on just what approaches you take to several different aspects of all grain brewing. Suffice it to say that all grain brewing can take 1-3 hours longer, depending on a number of factors, than extract.
BUT - and this is important - regardless of what anyone else will say, brewing from grain will not automatically result in a better finished product. If the brewer knows what he or she is doing, is familiar enough with basic brewing and fermenting processes, and is relatively disciplined, then yes, moving to all grain can provide more flexibility and more options. It can also provide at least a few more areas where we can screw things up, sometimes in little ways, sometimes in big ways (I've been trying to chase down a couple of little problems in my process for a few brews now, for instance - nothing really problematic, but definitely irksome to me).
mlyday
Well-Known Member
Youtube is your Friend. There a bunch of videos of people doing all-grain batches. I watched just about all of them before I did my first all-grain batch. It took a lot of the fear and uncertainty out of the situation.
kingwood-kid
Well-Known Member
AG gives you more control over the process, which is another way of saying it gives you more opportunities to mess things up. It's certainly cheaper, especially if you buy in bulk; but you use some of those savings on equipment. Extracts almost always contain carapils, and the darker ones a variety of mystery ingredients. These may or may not be called for in my beer, but I like the option to leave them out or vary the amounts, and of course I like to know what's actually in the beer.
Man we haven't had one of these ridiculous "which is better Ag-vs-extract?" threads in years. I think most people are beyond such nonsence, and understand, that it is NOT the methods, or whether or not it's extract or AG is not what makes great beer. The Brewer should make great beer with whatever materials at hand.
I've tasted some great extracts and I've tasted some ****ty all grain batches. It all depends on the brewer and his process. Not whether it's an AG or an extract beer. Ag is not the holy grail of brewing. If you refuse to read a hydromter, don't pay attention to temp control, don't make a yeast starter for liquid, or pitch the right amount of yeast, and follow the 1-2-3 rule regardless of whether the yeast lagged for 72 hours or not, you're going to make crappy beer regardless of it being an extract or ag batch..
And if you do all those things that the AG brewer didn't, and use the freshest extract and do a full boil and late extract addition, use proper temp control, you're going to make great if not award winning beers. It's that simple. I think people who blame extract for their crappy beers are copping out, and maybe should considering mastering them instead of thinking ag is going to be the answer to good tasting beer....There's been a few contest winners on here who did so with their MR BEER beers.....so if they can do that, then they're doing something right, and it has to do with their SKILL not whether or not is was extract.
Just try to make the best beer you can regardless of whether you use commercially produced extract, or you do the extracting yourself...which is the only difference between the two, whether you do the extracting/converting yourself, or buy it already done.
I've tasted some great extracts and I've tasted some ****ty all grain batches. It all depends on the brewer and his process. Not whether it's an AG or an extract beer. Ag is not the holy grail of brewing. If you refuse to read a hydromter, don't pay attention to temp control, don't make a yeast starter for liquid, or pitch the right amount of yeast, and follow the 1-2-3 rule regardless of whether the yeast lagged for 72 hours or not, you're going to make crappy beer regardless of it being an extract or ag batch..
And if you do all those things that the AG brewer didn't, and use the freshest extract and do a full boil and late extract addition, use proper temp control, you're going to make great if not award winning beers. It's that simple. I think people who blame extract for their crappy beers are copping out, and maybe should considering mastering them instead of thinking ag is going to be the answer to good tasting beer....There's been a few contest winners on here who did so with their MR BEER beers.....so if they can do that, then they're doing something right, and it has to do with their SKILL not whether or not is was extract.
Just try to make the best beer you can regardless of whether you use commercially produced extract, or you do the extracting yourself...which is the only difference between the two, whether you do the extracting/converting yourself, or buy it already done.
I'm curious if we've ever had a poll to see what methods people are using? I'd say about 50% of my brewing is all grain, another 40% of the time it's a full boil extract with steeping grain batch, and the rest is divided between partial boil extract with steeping on my stove, an occasional stove top partial mash and...wait for it...Coopers cans.
In fact, I have a Coopers kit in the fermenter right now. I mod them quite a bit, but still just a ten minute boil of DME, add some steeping grains, add some hops, dump the can on top, stir, top off with water, stir again, a packet of rehydrated US-05 and ferment at a controlled temperature, always control your temps. I can brew a very drinkable beer in an hour. Hey, I have kids and other things to do!
In fact, I have a Coopers kit in the fermenter right now. I mod them quite a bit, but still just a ten minute boil of DME, add some steeping grains, add some hops, dump the can on top, stir, top off with water, stir again, a packet of rehydrated US-05 and ferment at a controlled temperature, always control your temps. I can brew a very drinkable beer in an hour. Hey, I have kids and other things to do!
45_70sharps
Well-Known Member
I have had excellent extract beer and there is a recipe or two that I will continue to make even if everything new is all grain.
I like all grain because I like to do it, it's cheaper and I think I have more ways to tweak the recipe, but I'm sure there are many many extract brewers that can make beer I only dream of making.
The extract come from a mash after all.
I like all grain because I like to do it, it's cheaper and I think I have more ways to tweak the recipe, but I'm sure there are many many extract brewers that can make beer I only dream of making.
The extract come from a mash after all.
F250
Well-Known Member
...or maybe get your feet wet,like I did,with partial mash with a bag & a 5G SS BK. Partial boil,partial mash works pretty good so far. kinda fun experimentin!
45_70sharps
Well-Known Member
As for time, that's like asking how long to cook dinner.
Depends on what you are cooking!
The extra time though is milling the grain if you do that. I'm still waiting to buy a mill so I don't do that.
After it's milled, substitute your steeping time for this.
Heating the water to mash temperature. Varies with your setup but stove top to the most bad ass propane setup can vary from nearly an hour on an old stove to 15 minutes with hot tap water.
Mashing is going to take about an hour most of the time. Sparging doesn't take long at all if you batch sparge. You heat the sparge water while the mash is going on so that doesn't take long.
After that you've got wort. Boils the same as an extract. Cools the same as extract if you do a full volume boil.
LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
Depends on your equipment. This is about what it takes me for my equipment (keggles and big propane burners) and my 10 gallon batches...
Extract:
Heat water to steeping temps - 20 minutes
Steep grains - 20 minutes
Heat water to boiling - 15 minutes
Total: 55 minutes
All-grain:
Heat water to mashing temps - 20 minutes
Dump water into MLT with grains, stir it up and mash - 65 minutes
Vorlaufing and batch sparging - 25 minutes
Heat water to boiling - 20 minutes
Total: 130 minutes
If you fly sparge, that could add an extra hour, or so I've heard. Never fly sparged, so I don't know.
ILoveBeer2
Well-Known Member
My all grain batches are better than my extract batches. That said, my processes got better at the same time. Pitching rates and fermentation temperature management make a huge difference in the final product.
I converted the BCS Robust Porter recipe to a five pound partial mash and I liked it so much I've never made it any other way. I do the mash on my stove top while I'm heating up the rest of the full boil volume outside on my burner.
Utilizing late extract additions is also a real important tool, I think, to have in your arsenal if you are an extract brewer. One of the owners of my local shop is an extract brewer, her husband brews AG, and she makes some of the best danged beers I've ever tasted!
I here that! I've made some pretty darn good extract beers thart I think I'll go back to with a tweak or two from my partial mash experiences. but I'm sure others have done the same. Learn new stuff,go back & improve the old stuf kinda thing. What say you?
45_70sharps
Well-Known Member
I've got a Black Butte that's an extract with specialty grains that I will probably continue to make for a very long time.
It's just too good to mess with!
I just want to give my two cents here (maybe its only worth a penny.) I do not believe that I can taste a difference if fresh extract is used. I am mostly all-grain now, but not because extracts have off flavors. I like the hobby, and all-grain brewing gives me more to do on brew day. Furthermore, I can also control my all-grain extract in many interesting ways. For example, I can have higher alcohol vs. more body based on the mash temperature. You can also control the body, head, and color all based on your mash procedure.
I just think that all-grain brewers have made, and generally have learned from (and hopefully avoid) many of the mistakes that we do as new home brewers. We learn which sanitation techniques work best for us, how to adapt our temperature controls, effective yeast management for our unique setups, and so on. What I am trying to say is that all-grain may not have that twang because the average all-grain brewer is not making the mistakes a first time brewer often makes.
That is not to say that you cant make a bad all-grain beer. I made two this past year that I did not like.
Just make sure you control all your temperatures, with special care taken to make sure that your fermentation temperature is correct for your yeast. (Or, your yeast matches the temperatures that you have for fermenting.) Make sure that you use effective sanitization procedures. Use fresh extract. And finally, give your beer time. If you do all this, I do not think you will be able to tell the difference between extract and all-grain.
Mark
I just think that all-grain brewers have made, and generally have learned from (and hopefully avoid) many of the mistakes that we do as new home brewers. We learn which sanitation techniques work best for us, how to adapt our temperature controls, effective yeast management for our unique setups, and so on. What I am trying to say is that all-grain may not have that twang because the average all-grain brewer is not making the mistakes a first time brewer often makes.
That is not to say that you cant make a bad all-grain beer. I made two this past year that I did not like.
Just make sure you control all your temperatures, with special care taken to make sure that your fermentation temperature is correct for your yeast. (Or, your yeast matches the temperatures that you have for fermenting.) Make sure that you use effective sanitization procedures. Use fresh extract. And finally, give your beer time. If you do all this, I do not think you will be able to tell the difference between extract and all-grain.
Mark
My point exactly,45-70. By the way,if you actually have a 45=70 Sharps,I'd dearly LOVE to shoot it sometime! Damn,I love black powder! I have a TC arms 50 cal hawken that gets 100 grains of 3fg pyrodex & a saboted 200g jacketed hollow point. Same muzzel velocity as a thirty odd six.
All grain is better. I brewed my last extract batch about 2 months ago and, at least to me, it was terrible in comparison. I chucked my malt jar and have vowed to never brew with extract again. Except for the dme I keep for making starters. But that's it.
45_70sharps
Well-Known Member
As long as you are willing to try new things. Come up with a from scratch recipe just to see how things taste, you will continue to get a batch or two that you aren't crazy about.
It's all part of experimenting.
Not to mention that there are extra steps that can be messed up.
Neighbor stops by for a drink while you are brewing and you loose concentration for a bit..... Stuff happens.
It about doubles the time required to brew if you count the time it takes to mill the grain, heat strike water and wait for a 60 minute mash and then 10-15 minutes sparge.
My AG brews taste better than any extra kits I've made but my process has also improved since I switched to AG.
45_70sharps
Well-Known Member
I've got one! Might not be worth the cost of the trip out to Washington for you though.
I've also got an original 1884 Trapdoor in 45-70. The sharps is strong and can shoot smokeless, do it in the trapdoor and you will have metal sticking out of your forehead!
I've got a 54 caliber front stuffer also. I only use real blackpowder in it. No pyrodex. It's a caplock but I'm going to be getting a flintlock in the next year. I had one in the past but I didn't know squat. It was cheap and I've since learned quite a bit that would make it more fun to shoot and speed up the lock time a LOT.
I also use non sabot, non jacketed bullets only. You have to in the old stuff, and I like the primitive nature of the modern copies.
I need a conical short rammer for my 50. The hornady hollow pointd need it,but dang them sabots are tight. I learned how to make paper cartridges too. Rolling block rifles can use those. The early ones anyway.But the Spencer carbine is mt hands down favvy for a future buy. I saw a 56 cal one at Fort Larned in KS with this lil unifirm my then 10 year old brother could've worn. And that lil kid stood behind that cannon?! It was like a brass 12 guage comparitively. We need to go shootin sometime. I have been wanting 5to finish fixin my lil tuner to go out to the west coast again...might be fun. Home brews & black powder,yowza!
JPKDetroit
Active Member
The reason that all grain seems to be held on a pedestal is because home brewers like slow, DIY type ****. It's that simple.
It's not "better". It's cheaper. It's a little more complicated. It helps new brewers understand different tastes and processes better.
Is some store bought beer "better" than some of my home brews? Probably
Is it more fun driving to the store than brewing? Not for me
It's not "better". It's cheaper. It's a little more complicated. It helps new brewers understand different tastes and processes better.
Is some store bought beer "better" than some of my home brews? Probably
Is it more fun driving to the store than brewing? Not for me
Yeah,that's basically it,jp. As near as I can say,partial mash/AG is cleaner. Better than a well done extract? No,just cleaner. Idk if this makes any sense,but that's as near as I can describe the difference.
BetterSense
Well-Known Member
I do extract, but I also do BIAB all-grain.
This is true. However, I find that by the time I waste 30 minutes of time steeping specialty grains, I could have just done a BIAB mash. It's essentially the same operation. I also find that when I take the time to do a partial mash, it takes just as long as a full mash except I'm paying extra for extract to make up the base malt, which is substituting relatively expensive extract for the cheapest part of a cheap grain bill, with no time savings.
On the whole, extract saves me about an hour (which I can spend reading a book or surfing HBT anyway), but costs me a few extra bucks per batch and limits what I can do. It's a good tradeoff for certain styles. I never mash grain for wheat beers, and I'm about to give it up for IPAs.
For apartment dwellers and people who don't have big kettles (yet), extract begins to look more favorable.
This is true. However, I find that by the time I waste 30 minutes of time steeping specialty grains, I could have just done a BIAB mash. It's essentially the same operation. I also find that when I take the time to do a partial mash, it takes just as long as a full mash except I'm paying extra for extract to make up the base malt, which is substituting relatively expensive extract for the cheapest part of a cheap grain bill, with no time savings.
On the whole, extract saves me about an hour (which I can spend reading a book or surfing HBT anyway), but costs me a few extra bucks per batch and limits what I can do. It's a good tradeoff for certain styles. I never mash grain for wheat beers, and I'm about to give it up for IPAs.
For apartment dwellers and people who don't have big kettles (yet), extract begins to look more favorable.
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