Dirt cheap RIMS heater

[augiedoggy]

ok so I pulled my cartridge rims apart today and found a completely charred 1" area at the base which must have added some off flavors to my last couple beers which are fermenting... the rest of the element was clean (I ran pbw through it between brews.)
just bought a third element, a longer 17.5 inch long 750w element with a built in thermocouple I may try to utilize somehow.
from now on I'm pulling it apart (camlocks) and cleaning it between each brew session.

 

[dyqik]

ok so I pulled my cartridge rims apart today and found a completely charred 1" area at the base which must have added some off flavors to my last couple beers which are fermenting... the rest of the element was clean (I ran pbw through it between brews.)
just bought a third element, a longer 17.5 inch long 750w element with a built in thermocouple I may try to utilize somehow.
from now on I'm pulling it apart (camlocks) and cleaning it between each brew session.

Is this the element that was giving a lower than expected heating when you tried it? Maybe it's partially shorted internally near the base and is dumping all the heat there.

 

[augiedoggy]

Is this the element that was giving a lower than expected heating when you tried it? Maybe it's partially shorted internally near the base and is dumping all the heat there.

yes...could have been but honestly the dead space without flow likely caused it.

 

[Mojzis]

How are you guys doing with your setups?

I've made ~7 batches with mine. Last two I enclosed the end of the element (Kal style) and I think its causing an overheating issue. Tripped the breaker so I opened the box and it resolved the issue.

I haven't noticed scorching yet and the element seems to be staying clean. I've been thinking of threading the element into a cam fitting so I can take it apart after use.

 

[augiedoggy]

How are you guys doing with your setups?

I've made ~7 batches with mine. Last two I enclosed the end of the element (Kal style) and I think its causing an overheating issue. Tripped the breaker so I opened the box and it resolved the issue.

I haven't noticed scorching yet and the element seems to be staying clean. I've been thinking of threading the element into a cam fitting so I can take it apart after use.

I ended up upgrading my setup a bit...I went with a 1inch stainless rims tube with camlock for easy disassembly and cleanup and use a 25 1/2" 1000w cartridge heater now to bring the density down and prevent scorching, it works very well even with my newer less efficient stainless mash tun and more heat losses... I thought about putting the camlock fitting at the mounting end of the element but this would create more dead area outside the direct flow path and remove some of the element from the desired flow path...
all in all it still cost me under $100 for my setup (if you dont factor the cost of the 4 extra elements I bought when experimenting and trying to come up with a cheap longer alternative...
the single cartridge heater is easy to clean and I just picked up a flow switch that will kill the power to the element if the flow through it stops ($11)

 

[alphaomega]

@augiedoggy, that is a very sweet setup! Kudos!
The element, how is it sealed in the other end? Or is it one of those elements that is all stainless?

 

[augiedoggy]

@augiedoggy, that is a very sweet setup! Kudos!
The element, how is it sealed in the other end? Or is it one of those elements that is all stainless?

yes and since its 1/2" in diameter I just drilled out the little extra inside of a 1/2" compression to 1/2" NPT fitting from the hardware store... the brass ones are easiy to drill out and very little needs to be removed (the 1/2 element fits and seals perfect through the compression ring but below at the threaded area is where the drilling is needed to the element passes straight through.

I drilled out a stainless one on one of my smaller 3/8 elements but it wasnt worth the hassle or cost to do it again plus the hardware store only had brass locally (lead free of course)
BTW this is an ULWD because of the surface area vs size.... only draws 4 amps at 240v

Thanks BTW you gave me the idea...

 

[alphaomega]

Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean. That is a very useful trick for buildning all pipe (straight) counterflow chillers as well.

I wanted one that was all stainless, but couldn't find one at decent cost (you know including shipping to sweden). That is why I came up with the idea of using silicone stoppers instead.

Thanks for sharing your take on it!

 

[cowger]

How are you guys doing with your setups?

I've made ~7 batches with mine. Last two I enclosed the end of the element (Kal style) and I think its causing an overheating issue. Tripped the breaker so I opened the box and it resolved the issue.

I'm in no way implying that this is what's happening for you, but I had the exact same problem (enclosed the end and then tripped the breaker). Here's my setup:




It's just a 3d-printed box, sized to fit the end of the element, with a 3/8" hole for the cord. For the cord, I am using a heavy gauge, 3 conductor wire.



Obviously I'm only using 2 of the wires, and without thinking, I had grounded the green wire back in my control box when I wired everything up. What happened for me was that as I pushed this insulator onto the end of the element, it accidentally made contact between the green wire and one of the terminals, which then of course tripped the circuit breaker. To ensure this doesn't happen again, I disconnected the green wire at the other end and insulated it.

Maybe this helps someone down the road...

Otherwise, my RIMS setup is working great! I have a 2000W element running at 240VAC and it will bring 5 gallons from 122 to 155 (or 155 to 170) in less than 5 minutes. Very happy with the setup and no stuck sparges yet -- I have a domed false bottom in my 10 gallon round cooler and run the valve throttled about halfway closed.

 

[Mojzis]

Thanks for the pics guys. I didn't know the elements came in longer sizes, i'll keep that in mind if this ones burns out. Lower density might help if I wanted to do faster temp shifts. Right now its not usually on 100% of the time so it works. I like the use of the cams, great minds think alike.

Cowger I see what you mean. Its possible that i'm pushing the wires too close to the ground in my box which is causing the trip. Maybe I'll shorten them up a little and throw in some sort of insulator.

 

[pablosbrewing]

I disconnected the green wire at the other end and insulated it.

Cowger - did you run the ground to the RIMS tube some other way?

 

[cowger]

Cowger - did you run the ground to the RIMS tube some other way?

No, I didn't, and now that I answer that, I'm guessing I should probably figure out a way to do that for safety... hmm.....

 

[cowger]

Today I finally got around to rewiring my RIMS element in order to extend the green ground wire out to the body of the RIMS housing. While doing that, I figured that I'd pull the element out just to see how things looked inside.

Not pretty...


There is a flakey white skin over most of the element. It scrapes off pretty easily, and my next step will be to clean this thoroughly, but I'm interested in understanding what this is. Scorched wort? Since I'm running this 2000W heater at full power, I suspect that might be the case.

Perhaps I'll have to add the step of removing and cleaning the element after each brew...

Thoughts?
Bryan

 

[helterscelter]

Today I finally got around to rewiring my RIMS element in order to extend the green ground wire out to the body of the RIMS housing. While doing that, I figured that I'd pull the element out just to see how things looked inside.

Not pretty...


There is a flakey white skin over most of the element. It scrapes off pretty easily, and my next step will be to clean this thoroughly, but I'm interested in understanding what this is. Scorched wort? Since I'm running this 2000W heater at full power, I suspect that might be the case.

Perhaps I'll have to add the step of removing and cleaning the element after each brew...

Thoughts?
Bryan

Could be mineral deposits from hard water. I've changed water heater elements that looked like that before

 

[augiedoggy]

some of that might be the zinc coating that flakes off many of the non ULWD elements revealing copper or another surface underneath... my HLT element started peeling...

I'm happy to report that my cartridge heats stays completely clean and the only time I had anything stick to it was when I shut the flow off but forgot to kill the element power...I have since added a flowswitch.

 

[Mojzis]

I broke my second cartridge heater. I keep breaking off the power connectors. I had brass compression fitting that started to leak so I bought stainless. Switched them and went to put it back in the tube and broke off the connector. I'm far too clumsy for delicate parts.

 

[cowger]

Thanks, guys. Our water is very soft, and since that white stuff scrubbed off pretty effortlessly, I don't believe it could be calcium. I'll keep a close eye on it and see what happens during future brews...

 

[dirkomatic]

Dammit... After getting all the parts together for my HERMS setup ($18 hot plate + $40 stainless coil + $43 in fittings), I see this thread. Even with buying the threaded cartridge heater from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FN5XNHO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
and getting a 6" stainless nipple + a tee + elbow + 2 type F camlocks, I could have saved some money with this... Oh, well.

 

[augiedoggy]

Just an update on my cartridge heater rims setup... I recently pulled the trigger on a 36" long 1800w cartridge heater and am building a long 1" stainless pipe rims setup. I believe the longer contact time from the long ULWD element combined with the low 2gpm flow of my 24v dc pump should allow me to gently raise the temps quite a bit in one pass while still not denaturing any enzymes. I'm still waiting on a couple pipe fittings to arrive but im just lengthening my current rims setup...I does work fine but I want to be able to step mash quicker and I'm really curious if this will work better in the way that a longer plate chiller chills better than shorter chillers with more plates can...


BTW my current 24" 1000w cartridge heater is completely buildup free and clean with over 12 brews on it....hmm

 

[Mojzis]

It seems like you're going keep upgrading that thing Throw up some pics when it's all finished.

Since I broke my last element I ordered a new one that is only 500w and 10" long. The old one was 900w and 8" long and had a little film at the base. After a quick test run it appears my issue with fluctuating temps is solved. Longer element and less power keeps things consistent.

Not as impressive as 36" @ 1800w though

 

[BetterSense]

Just an update on my cartridge heater rims setup... I recently pulled the trigger on a 36" long 1800w cartridge heater and am building a long 1" stainless pipe rims setup. I believe the longer contact time from the long ULWD element combined with the low 2gpm flow of my 24v dc pump should allow me to gently raise the temps quite a bit in one pass while still not denaturing any enzymes. I'm still waiting on a couple pipe fittings to arrive but im just lengthening my current rims setup...I does work fine but I want to be able to step mash quicker and I'm really curious if this will work better in the way that a longer plate chiller chills better than shorter chillers with more plates can...


BTW my current 24" 1000w cartridge heater is completely buildup free and clean with over 12 brews on it....hmm

You want lower power, more surface area, and higher flow, not less flow, if you are trying to minimize enzyme denaturing.

Since heating elements dissipate power more or less evenly along their length, the situation is not really comparable to plate chillers, where the heat is transferred proportional to the temperature delta between the media. Mi

 

[augiedoggy]

You want lower power, more surface area, and higher flow, not less flow, if you are trying to minimize enzyme denaturing.

Since heating elements dissipate power more or less evenly along their length, the situation is not really comparable to plate chillers, where the heat is transferred proportional to the temperature delta between the media. Mi

I dont see why I would need more flow with the 1800w watts spread over such a long 5/8 diameter element surface area? the heat transfer will be more gradual than most of the rims setups I see here? and the pid and temp probe placement should ensure the wort is not heated over the setpointat any given time... as far as I'm understanding the lower flow will do more to ensure the element isnt staying on and trying to overwork itself?

I was under the impression that a longer plate chiller provides a better cooling effect because the cooling water temp is a bit more consistent throughout the length of the chiller and thought the same would be true of a longer even contact with an element which should prevent the element from having to fire longer and try to compensate with a hotter surface temp...

 

[PlexVector]

You want lower power, more surface area, and higher flow, not less flow, if you are trying to minimize enzyme denaturing.

Since heating elements dissipate power more or less evenly along their length, the situation is not really comparable to plate chillers, where the heat is transferred proportional to the temperature delta between the media. Mi

I dont see why I would need more flow with the 1800w watts spread over such a long 5/8 diameter element surface area? the heat transfer will be more gradual than most of the rims setups I see here? and the pid and temp probe placement should ensure the wort is not heated over the setpointat any given time... as far as I'm understanding the lower flow will do more to ensure the element isnt staying on and trying to overwork itself?

I was under the impression that a longer plate chiller provides a better cooling effect because the cooling water temp is a bit more consistent throughout the length of the chiller and thought the same would be true of a longer even contact with an element which should prevent the element from having to fire longer and try to compensate with a hotter surface temp...

There is a point where the flow could be too slow that would result in plugs of overheated wort. These plugs would be next to the heating element for laminar flow. Like a low frequency instability in an amplifier. I think it would be more likely if you used a bang bang controller, which I doubt your using. Although for that length it would help if turbulence could be generated through out the tube. Like a loosely fitted SS spring along the ID of the tube so it can easily be pulled and cleaned. Just my $0.02

 

[augiedoggy]

There is a point where the flow could be too slow that would result in plugs of overheated wort. These plugs would be next to the heating element for laminar flow. Like a low frequency instability in an amplifier. I think it would be more likely if you used a bang bang controller, which I doubt your using. Although for that length it would help if turbulence could be generated through out the tube. Like a loosely fitted SS spring along the ID of the tube so it can easily be pulled and cleaned. Just my $0.02

I thought about all that... honestly I'm using the same pump with a shorter version of the same rims tube now with a smaller diameter element which means less flow and I have had no issues.... a 5/8" diameter element inside a 1" opening should cause increased velocity over the 1/2" diameter element I'm using now and to maintain 152 degrees my rims pid is usually on about 20-30% duty cycle now.... again I get zero carmelization and buildup on the element which tells me its heating gently... and I believe the right angle entrance/exit ports, inline camlock fitting in the main tube along with the probe at the far end creates enough turbulence in the flow.

I also use a flow switch which kills the element power if flow were to ever drop below a certain point but with the triple stage filtering in the false bottom its never been an issue.

 

[PlexVector]

I thought about all that... honestly I'm using the same pump with a shorter version of the same rims tube now with a smaller diameter element which means less flow and I have had no issues.... a 5/8" diameter element inside a 1" opening should cause increased velocity over the 1/2" diameter element I'm using now and to maintain 152 degrees my rims pid is usually on about 20-30% duty cycle now.... again I get zero carmelization and buildup on the element which tells me its heating gently... and I believe the right angle entrance/exit ports, inline camlock fitting in the main tube along with the probe at the far end creates enough turbulence in the flow.

I also use a flow switch which kills the element power if flow were to ever drop below a certain point but with the triple stage filtering in the false bottom its never been an issue.

What's the period of the duty cycle?
As long as the period of the duty cycle is much greater than it takes the wort to move from one end to the other then your golden. I trust your results, and I hope I'm not coming off as critical. This is more for the readers than for you.

I've not followed the thread completely, but I'd like to reproduce your RIMS if I may. Is the parts list complete?

 

[BetterSense]

I dont see why I would need more flow with the 1800w watts spread over such a long 5/8 diameter element surface area? the heat transfer will be more gradual than most of the rims setups I see here? and the pid and temp probe placement should ensure the wort is not heated over the setpointat any given time... as far as I'm understanding the lower flow will do more to ensure the element isnt staying on and trying to overwork itself?

I was under the impression that a longer plate chiller provides a better cooling effect because the cooling water temp is a bit more consistent throughout the length of the chiller and thought the same would be true of a longer even contact with an element which should prevent the element from having to fire longer and try to compensate with a hotter surface temp...

I was not saying that you actually need or will need more flow. Maybe you will have enough flow; I don't know. I was just saying that if you want to be gentle on your enzymes, you want higher flow and more turbulent flow. Your post made it sound like you thought slower flow would be better, but that's wrong. Think about the limiting case...zero or extremely low flow would denture and scorch the wort in the rims while sucking at heating your mash.

To summarize:

--Large heating surface area good because it promotes low watt density at the heating surfaces while enabling enough total power to be useful

--Low total heating power good because it promotes lower watt density (zero power=no enzyme denaturalization)

--High wort flow is good (to move the heated wort quickly through the rims tube before picking up too much heat, which both avoids denaturalization and helps with the system control)

--More turbulent flow is good (speed wort exchange at the heating element surface by avoiding boundary layers)

Full disclosure: IAAPEBIOPBOTI (I am a thermal process engineer but I only play brewer on the Internet).

 

[augiedoggy]

I was not saying that you actually need or will need more flow. Maybe you will have enough flow; I don't know. I was just saying that if you want to be gentle on your enzymes, you want higher flow and more turbulent flow. Your post made it sound like you thought slower flow would be better, but that's wrong. Think about the limiting case...zero or extremely low flow would denture and scorch the wort in the rims while sucking at heating your mash.

I get what you are saying but lets look a a coffee maker... extremely slow flow compared to my measured 2 gallons per minute, yet it stiill manages to produce nice pot of non scorched coffee... I guess im just saying if the element is low enough density you should be able to go with much less flow and longer gentle heating contact than I have now and still hold temps fine in the mashtun since its not like it loses temp that fast

 

[augiedoggy]

What's the period of the duty cycle?
As long as the period of the duty cycle is much greater than it takes the wort to move from one end to the other then your golden. I trust your results, and I hope I'm not coming off as critical. This is more for the readers than for you.

I've not followed the thread completely, but I'd like to reproduce your RIMS if I may. Is the parts list complete?

I use a mypin with actually cycles the element on and off for a % of each second so 30% on would be 30% of each second.... (from what Ive read auber units dont do this which makes me question how they could possible perform better in pid mode?)
There is a list of sorts with pics and links in my build thread linked below...(sorry for the disorganized thread) basically I used 1" stainless pipe fittings with a 1" stainless camlock for element removal for inspection and cleaning as well as the use of a 240v long single stainless steel rod cartridge heater.. these are cheap and can easily be mounted by just drilling the little bit of the base of a brass or stainless compression fitting so the element will pass completely through it and then tighten it down and thread it into the rims tube...

My first attempt was more a copy of alphaomegas design with copper pipe but I didnt use stoppers.... it works ok for the $50 I spent but the element was only 10" long and the space inside was tight creating a narrow dead space at the end with little flow and much opportunity for things to stick and scorching to occur and thats what happened when I brewed a heavy stout... heres some links of the version 2 rims I am now upgrading to the longer more powerful element for faster step mashing and goof up recovery if I mashin too cold.

 

[BetterSense]

I get what you are saying but lets look a a coffee maker... extremely slow flow compared to my measured 2 gallons per minute, yet it stiill manages to produce nice pot of non scorched coffee... I guess im just saying if the element is low enough density you should be able to go with much less flow and longer gentle heating contact than I have now and still hold temps fine in the mashtun since its not like it loses temp that fast

You are correct, if you have a large enough heating surface you can slow the speed to zero. Maybe your super long element will let you use low flow. As a first pass theory I would say doubling the element area will allow you to cut the flow in half. But low flow or high flow might cause you other control problems. Here is homework:

1) calculate area of heating element by measuring active area
2) calculate areal watt density of the element as a function of electric duty cycle
3) this step intentionally left blank
4) calculate the flow-normalized areal power density of your system. It will have dimensions something like J/m^5
5) compare that with flow-normalized areal power density of other systems that have been known to work successfully in the field

that will give you an idea if your larger element really is going to compensate for your flow rate

Or, try it and taste the beer.

I would suggest stopping with inappropriate analogies and look at the physics. Coffee makers work through boiling...it's inherent to the design. ..boiling involves latent heat and enthalpy of vaporization...nothing at all like mashing.

 

[augiedoggy]

You are correct, if you have a large enough heating surface you can slow the speed to zero. Maybe your super long element will let you use low flow. Here is homework:

1) calculate area of heating element by measuring active area
2) calculate areal watt density of the element as a function of electric duty cycle
3) this step intentionally left blank
4) calculate the flow-normalized areal power density of your system. It will have dimensions something like J/m^5*s^2
5) compare that with flow-normalized areal power density of other systems that have been known to work successfully in the field

that will give you an idea if your larger element really is going to compensate for your flow rate

Or, try it and taste the beer.

I would suggest stopping with inappropriate analogies and look at the physics. Coffee makers work through boiling...it's inherent to the design. ..boiling involves latent heat and enthalpy of vaporization.

pardon me.... I guess im just not intelligent enough to know the reasoning and analogies I had in my head is all wrong and unrelated..
I share this things on a forum such as this to discuss and learn these things ...

BTW I am stepping up the wattage and size /length of my elements in small increments and brewing with each one to gather real world experience on what does and doesnt work well since I also lack the knowledge and confidence to do and trust in any math formulas pertaining to this... sometimes (not always) whats on paper doesnt have the same real world effects and one would gather.