Did I order the wrong size flask?

[Redpappy]

i plan on sticking with 5 gal small beers (1050 OG range) I have read that people go with the 1L flask. ( I guess the way I did my search it pulled mainly the small beers, IDK)So I order a 1 L flask. I am still researching on how to do a starter and how to store my DME. But it seems that, what I have ran across in the last few days, that most are going with a 2L, but they are also saying they do big beers ( 1070, 1090). So the question is, will a 1L work for a small 5 gal batch using a washed yeast?

 

[jmcquesten]

You're better off going bigger. I'd recommend a 5 liter. You can still make a 1 liter starter in a 5 liter flask, you cannot make a 3 liter starter in a 1 or 2 liter flask. If you EVER might consider making a lager, or a big beer, or a 10 gallon batch, you'd be safe with the 5 liter. They really aren't that much more than a 2 liter.

 

[jmcquesten]

To answer your question, if you have the 1 liter and can't exchange it, yes you can use it. A small starter is (usually) better than no starter. I started with a 2 liter then had to get a 5 liter. Now the 2 liter hardly gets used except for trying to harvest yeast from bottles.

 

[flars]

A 2 liter flask is good for a 1 liter starter to prevent over flows from some of the more aggressive yeasts. I'll do stepped starters when a I need to propagate more yeast that can be propagated with a 1 liter starter. I'll use a one and a half gallon pickle jar for really large starters using the "Shaken Not Stirred"method.

This is a good pitch rate/starter calculator. Has a built in calculator for over building a starter to save some of the fresh yeast for your next starter. Calculator also demonstrates how easy it is to do stepped starters.
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

A 1 liter flask will be useful to do a 500 ml vitality starter the morning of your brew day.

 

[IslandLizard]

Are you using a stir plate or intermittent swirling on the countertop?
If the latter, 1 liter doesn't have nearly enough headspace to prevent blow offs, you stand to lose half the yeast to the counter each time. Even 2 liter flasks tend to suffer from blow off.
On a stir plate it may work as long as you add a drop of Fermcap to your starter wort when boiling it. Boil in a stainless pot, not in the flask!

But a 2 liter flask is generally much more useful, so if you can return it without losing too much money in the process do it. If not, it may still be useful for small starters or vitality starters, as mentioned before.

A 5 liter flask gives ample space, sure, but can be a bit cumbersome when you need to cold crash it. It won't fit on any refrigerator shelf without removing another.

 

[MaxStout]

I agree with the others on getting a larger flask, even for smaller beers. A 2L minimum, and if you want more headroom, a 3L is available. If you do lagers, you'll need to go large, 5L.

That 1L flask would be useful for rehydrating dry yeast--that's what I use mine for. Sanitize 100ml water in the flask, cool, and add dry yeast. When ready to pitch, it's easy to swirl the yeast in the flask and pour.

 

[BrewMan13]

I recently decided to do more proper starters, as well as getting into lagers. I also intend to do some yeast culturing and building up of colonies, so I felt that having 3 different sizes suited my needs: 250ml, 1L & 5L. If I was sticking to ales and not intending to do said yeast experiments, I would have just gone with a 2L. Also, I believe the general recommendation is at least 50% empty space to help pull in air to aerate the starter, but I could be just imagining that I read that somewhere...

 

[Redpappy]

Well poops..... I guess I will need to make it work for the time being. Thanks everyone for the feed back.

 

[Redpappy]

Are you using a stir plate or intermittent swirling on the countertop?
If the latter, 1 liter doesn't have nearly enough headspace to prevent blow offs, you stand to lose half the yeast to the counter each time. Even 2 liter flasks tend to suffer from blow off.
On a stir plate it may work as long as you add a drop of Fermcap to your starter wort when boiling it. Boil in a stainless pot, not in the flask!

But a 2 liter flask is generally much more useful, so if you can return it without losing too much money in the process do it. If not, it may still be useful for small starters or vitality starters, as mentioned before.

A 5 liter flask gives ample space, sure, but can be a bit cumbersome when you need to cold crash it. It won't fit on any refrigerator shelf without removing another.

As of right now I do not have a stir plate. But I do have an old PC coming to me, so I plan on building a stir plate once I get.

 

[imasickboy]

You'll be fine with a 1L, with proper planning. If a yeast calculator says you need a starter larger than 1L, make a starter a week ahead of time, cold crash, decant most of the liquid, and pour more cooled starter wort on top the remaining yeast for your second step.

I also advise against a 5L, due to the enormous size.

For the beers you expect to brew, you can certainly get by with your 1L. It wasn't a wasted purchase.

 

[IslandLizard]

You'll be fine with a 1L, with proper planning. If a yeast calculator says you need a starter larger than 1L, make a starter a week ahead of time, cold crash, decant most of the liquid, and pour more cooled starter wort on top the remaining yeast for your second step.

I also advise against a 5L, due to the enormous size.

For the beers you expect to brew, you can certainly get by with your 1L. It wasn't a wasted purchase.

The only problem is that the OP can only make 600-800ml starters in a 1 liter flask, not 1 liter starters, which is really not or barely enough for 5 gallon batches. So yes, stepping up will alleviate most of that.

Alternatively, if the OP always buys packs of fairly fresh yeast (say less than 3 months old), or uses some saved out yeast from a recent brew, he could make a 600-800ml vitality starter early on his brew day, give it 4 hours on the stir plate or shake intermittently, then pitch that without cold crashing.

I have a few 1 liter flasks and do use them for stepping up, but the 2 liter ones are simply more versatile, and thus get much more use.

 

[flars]

Preparing to brew Northern Brewers Bavarian Hefeweizen on Saturday. Will be using WY 3068. Aggressive yeast which needs more head space than most other ale yeasts. Using a 2 liter flask would require a three step process and still exceed the inoculation rate in step 2 and 3 for optimum yeast growth. Decided to go with the shaken not stirred method in my big mason jar except I forgot it was smashed last year. Used a gallon pickle jar.

Not the ideal 4:1 ratio of volume to wort. The krausen rose to the foil this morning when I swirled the jar. Thought I would get blow off and need to start transferring some of the starter to 2 liter flasks. Just got lucky on this one.

It will be a couple of months before the large mason jars are back in the stores.

 

[isomerization]

Use a few drops of anti foam on a stir plate and you should have ZERO krausen (caveat: in an appropriate sized flask). Also make the starter in a kitchen pot and then transfer into the sanitized flask (if it's high quality you can transfer hot for extra sanitation), this will allow you to use a large volume.

But yes, you should get a larger flask, no sense ruining a batch by underpitching,

 

[Redpappy]

The only problem is that the OP can only make 600-800ml starters in a 1 liter flask, not 1 liter starters, which is really not or barely enough for 5 gallon batches. So yes, stepping up will alleviate most of that.

Alternatively, if the OP always buys packs of fairly fresh yeast (say less than 3 months old), or uses some saved out yeast from a recent brew, he could make a 600-800ml vitality starter early on his brew day, give it 4 hours on the stir plate or shake intermittently, then pitch that without cold crashing.

I have a few 1 liter flasks and do use them for stepping up, but the 2 liter ones are simply more versatile, and thus get much more use.

I just want to make sure I understand this. If I am using washed yeast ( it’s been in the fridge for 2 weeks) I can make a yeast starter and pitch it 4 hours later.

Don’t beat me up to bad, I’m still trying to wrap my head around all of it. I did wash some yeast out last Friday. And I am either going to use it next Friday or in 2 weeks.

 

[IslandLizard]

I just want to make sure I understand this. If I am using washed yeast ( it’s been in the fridge for 2 weeks) I can make a yeast starter and pitch it 4 hours later.

Don’t beat me up to bad, I’m still trying to wrap my head around all of it. I did wash some yeast out last Friday. And I am either going to use it next Friday or in 2 weeks.

That's correct! Vitality starters awaken and condition the yeast cells (building up their Sterol reserves) to get them in tip-top shape for the larger fermentation that follows. A stir plate is recommended, or shaking often, to get as much air (oxygen) into that starter wort as possible. Just for clarity in calculating a harvested yeast's age, it starts the day it dropped to the bottom in the fermentor, not the day you reclaimed it.

Good wort aeration/oxygenation when you pitch that starter helps to achieve good cell reproduction and shortens lag time.

 

[glugglug]

When I started making starters, I bought a 1 liter flask. I now have a larger flask, but still employ the smaller flask. I fill the 1 liter flask all the way to top with water. I boil that with DME, and then that wort goes into the larger flask that I cool to room temp. Then about 12 hours later, I repeat except I pour the hot wort into the small flask and cool that to room temp. Then I add it to the larger flask where the yeast is having a good ole time. I time this so that when my brew day wort gets to pitching temp the starter is rocking. My beers are usually between 5-6.5%.

 

[FunkedOut]

I started out with a 2L flask thinking it’d be enough for 5 gallon batches.
Even though lager pitch rate is twice an ale rate,
it was the big ales that drove me to upsize the flask to a 4L because of headspace and blow offs.
4L is plenty big for 5 gallon batches.

 

[glugglug]

Bigger is better... so I’ve heard!

 

[Redpappy]

Bigger is better... so I’ve heard!

Or is it .......

 

[RM-MN]

I started out with a 2L flask thinking it’d be enough for 5 gallon batches.
Even though lager pitch rate is twice an ale rate,
it was the big ales that drove me to upsize the flask to a 4L because of headspace and blow offs.
4L is plenty big for 5 gallon batches.

I saw this on White Labs web site.

"One package of White Labs yeast within proper date ranges will work for any 5-gallon batch of beer of any gravity."

But you need a 4L flask to make a starter for your ales. What do you know that White Labs doesn't?

 

[Konadog]

I had a 2L and moved up to a 5L. Sooner or later your going to want to brew a big beer, or start harvesting your starter for yeast instead of washing yeast, then your going to want the 5L flask. Until then, make what you have work.

I did it so I can over build my starter and harvest that yeast for next time.

 

[Redpappy]

Going bigger, I really don’t think I will, I like my small beers. But I can see me harvesting from my starter, in the future.

 

[jmcquesten]

The white labs pack I'm looking at says "for OG over 1.050 or yeast past it's best by date, a starter culture can be made". It does not say one pack will work for ANY 5 gallon batch. It doesn't say you HAVE to make a starter either. They would probably prefer you don't make a starter and just buy the number of packets you need from them.

 

[FunkedOut]

I saw this on White Labs web site.

"One package of White Labs yeast within proper date ranges will work for any 5-gallon batch of beer of any gravity."

But you need a 4L flask to make a starter for your ales. What do you know that White Labs doesn't?

Not a thing, I’m sure.
Let me paint a picture...

I’ve been using this calculator ever since I started making starters and harvesting yeast from overbuilding starters:
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

If I tucked away 100 billion cells (equivalent of one package of White Labs yeast) in a jar, in the fridge 2-3 months ago, that calc says only ~55 billion are viable.

That calc also says that I’ll need 260 billion cells for 5.75 gallons of a 1.065 beer.
Add to that another 100 billion so I can tuck away some for next time I want to use this yeast.
I need to turn ~55 billion cells into 360 billion cells.

That calc says that with 2L of 1.040 starter wort and a stir plate, I can do just that.

2L of starter wort in a 2L flask, add yeast and sit on a stir plate. Break out the mop because there’s gonna be a good mess.

Try that same stunt in a 4L flask, and you can leave it go overnight and sleep right without worrying about a mess.

 

[RM-MN]

Take a good look at this article and compare the viability to what your yeast calculator assumes.

https://www.whitelabs.com/news/purepitch-shelf-life

Then read this research done by Woodland Brewing and compare the two.

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/refrigeration-effects-on-yeast-viability.html

 

[urg8rb8]

You can still use the 1L flask for starters larger than 1L. You can step up your starter in stages!

 

[STMF]

You can still use the 1L flask for starters larger than 1L. You can step up your starter in stages!

Just understand that 2x1 liter is not the same as 1x2 liter starter.

 

[urg8rb8]

Just understand that 2x1 liter is not the same as 1x2 liter starter.

Of course. Just step up as appropriate.

I have a 2L flask and if I need to make a big beer, I just step it up one more time and I'm good.

 

[FunkedOut]

@RM-MN

1. The White Labs article you linked to is discussing viability of their 1st generation yeast, benefiting from their FlexCell™ technology and PurePitch® packaging, over the course of 6 months.
2. The Woodland Brewing research you linked to is discussing viability of an unknown generation yeast, sourced from washed slurry over the course of 1 month. It's not mentioned in the text, but looking at the picture of the jars of slurries, they look very thoroughly washed. Washing the slurry greatly reduces, if not eliminates, the alcohol content of the slurry.
3. The Brew United Calculator provides a list of assumptions at the bottom of the webpage. Ironically enough, the first assumption states, "Liquid yeast is assumed to lose approximately 20% of the total viable cell count per month. This figure comes from a White Labs statement that indicated that you could expect 75%-85% viability after a month; 20% is used as a middling factor." You'll notice the link to the White Labs statement points to a URL for the old FAQ page on the White Labs website. That FAQ was updated when they adopted the FlexCell™ technology and PurePitch® packaging.

Here's a viability comparison of those apples, oranges and limes:

                            1 month     2 months     3 months     4 months     5 months     6 months
White Labs
FlexCell™                   99.21%       98.05%       90.26%       84.28%       79.35%       71.59%
PurePitch®

Woodland Brewing
Washed Slurry                99.8%

Brew United
Calculator                    77%          61%          49%          39%          31%          25%

Not sure what information we can gleam from that data?

In the Woodland Brewing blog entry, it is mentions the impacts of alcohol to yeast viability, linking to another one of their blog entries:
http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2013/01/abv-effects-on-yeast.html
That entry discusses yeast viability of yeast with slurries of varying alcohol content over the course of 70 days.
Sadly, the Woodland Brewing starter calculator is no longer available for download.
Still, below is a more apples to apples comparison of this blog entry against the Brew United Calculator:
(I'm calling it "more apples to apples" because 4% is typical ABV for a 1.040 starter)

                            1 month     2 months     3 months     4 months     5 months     6 months
Woodland Brewing
4% Slurry                     78%          63%

Brew United
Calculator                    77%          61%          49%          39%          31%          25%

Viability numbers are pretty much in line.

Let's set aside the alcohol content for a moment.
Let's assume my yeast handling skills are so good, they match those at White Labs.
Let's assume that my 5th generation yeast is on par with White Lab's FlexCell™ technology.
Let's assume that my mason jar is on par with White Lab's PurePitch® packaging.
That would mean that at 2.5 months, my yeast viability is not at ~55%, but matching White Lab's ~94%.

Damn, I'm good.

The net result is that my 1.040 starter would need to be 1.75L, instead of 2.0L.
I've made a 1.75L ale starter in a 2L flask and ended up making a mess all over the stir plate, desk and floor.

Thanks for the homework assignment, but, what's your point?
What do you know that I don't?

 

[imasickboy]

@FunkedOut I know one thing you don't. My 2L starters in a 2L flask don't make a mess all over my stir plate, desk, or floor. What the heck are you doing that I don't that makes such a difference? I've never had a starter blow over. I came close one time, with WLP530, when I pitched at 72 degrees, but that was once, out of many starters. Temperature? Stir speed? I just don't get it. What variable causes you to have issues that I don't?