Did I order the wrong size flask?

[FunkedOut]

not sure. yeast strain, temp, wort quality, stir speed all seem like good variables.

i only get these blow offs using ale yeasts, specifically US-05, 1084 and 2575-PC.
house stays 72*F - 78*F during the day. 70*F at night.
i notice that starter worts made with DME produce a larger krausen then those made from second runnings.
i always max out the stir speed. its a small 3/4" stir bar, though. the vortex just barely gets started and every few seconds touches down enough to be heard.

the beer made in these starters taste bad. specially the lager starters; they're sulfur city. but then again, i cold crash and decant all but 100mL total.

 

[RM-MN]

@RM-MN

1. The White Labs article you linked to is discussing viability of their 1st generation yeast, benefiting from their FlexCell™ technology and PurePitch® packaging, over the course of 6 months.
2. The Woodland Brewing research you linked to is discussing viability of an unknown generation yeast, sourced from washed slurry over the course of 1 month. It's not mentioned in the text, but looking at the picture of the jars of slurries, they look very thoroughly washed. Washing the slurry greatly reduces, if not eliminates, the alcohol content of the slurry.
3. The Brew United Calculator provides a list of assumptions at the bottom of the webpage. Ironically enough, the first assumption states, "Liquid yeast is assumed to lose approximately 20% of the total viable cell count per month. This figure comes from a White Labs statement that indicated that you could expect 75%-85% viability after a month; 20% is used as a middling factor." You'll notice the link to the White Labs statement points to a URL for the old FAQ page on the White Labs website. That FAQ was updated when they adopted the FlexCell™ technology and PurePitch® packaging.

Here's a viability comparison of those apples, oranges and limes:

                            1 month     2 months     3 months     4 months     5 months     6 months
White Labs
FlexCell™                   99.21%       98.05%       90.26%       84.28%       79.35%       71.59%
PurePitch®

Woodland Brewing
Washed Slurry                99.8%

Brew United
Calculator                    77%          61%          49%          39%          31%          25%

Not sure what information we can gleam from that data?

In the Woodland Brewing blog entry, it is mentions the impacts of alcohol to yeast viability, linking to another one of their blog entries:
http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2013/01/abv-effects-on-yeast.html
That entry discusses yeast viability of yeast with slurries of varying alcohol content over the course of 70 days.
Sadly, the Woodland Brewing starter calculator is no longer available for download.
Still, below is a more apples to apples comparison of this blog entry against the Brew United Calculator:
(I'm calling it "more apples to apples" because 4% is typical ABV for a 1.040 starter)

                            1 month     2 months     3 months     4 months     5 months     6 months
Woodland Brewing
4% Slurry                     78%          63%

Brew United
Calculator                    77%          61%          49%          39%          31%          25%

Viability numbers are pretty much in line.

Let's set aside the alcohol content for a moment.
Let's assume my yeast handling skills are so good, they match those at White Labs.
Let's assume that my 5th generation yeast is on par with White Lab's FlexCell™ technology.
Let's assume that my mason jar is on par with White Lab's PurePitch® packaging.
That would mean that at 2.5 months, my yeast viability is not at ~55%, but matching White Lab's ~94%.

Damn, I'm good.

The net result is that my 1.040 starter would need to be 1.75L, instead of 2.0L.
I've made a 1.75L ale starter in a 2L flask and ended up making a mess all over the stir plate, desk and floor.

Thanks for the homework assignment, but, what's your point?
What do you know that I don't?

The main point is that so many here call for a big starter for a batch of ale while White Labs says that a single pack of their yeast is sufficient. Some people get terribly worried about the loss of viability over time with their unopened packet but White Labs says it is so small as to be ignored.

How much do you gain by making a 2L starter for a 5 gallon batch which has an OG of 1.050? Mostly it reduces lag time. How much? I've seen numbers that say the yeast, in proper conditions, will double in numbers in about 90 minutes. If that is true, then If I need 200 billion cells (just a number) and only pitch 100 billion (just another number) I will have a lag of about 90 minutes.

One of the reasons to reduce lag time is to control bacterial counts that can produce off flavors. Assuming you boiled your beer, then chilled it quickly and put it into the fermenter with a lid, how many bacterial cells do you have in your beer? How long will it take for them to multiply sufficiently to change the flavor of your beer and how will they compete with the yeast?

Much of the lore about starters came from a time when yeast was not as healthy, packaging and shipment weren't as good, and one would make a starter to ensure that there was still viable yeast before pitching to the beer. Now it has evolved to the point that new brewers are concerned that they cannot make acceptable beer without a big starter when in truth a single pack pitched into aerated wort is all they need. In fact, Gordon Strong has said he often pitches a single pack of yeast in a lager which is just not heard of on this forum. Having won the Ninkasi award, he should know how to make good beer, yet often foregos a starter.

 

[FunkedOut]

I cannot disagree with the idea that using a fresh, 1st generation lab pack makes good beer. I’ve been there and done that.

A variety of reasons have led me to making starters.
In no particular order, I’m cheap, I live far from the nearest HBS, closest HBS doesn’t have a great collection of yeast, I like the idea of being capable of brewing without having to wait on yeast.

With stored yeast in a jar, I feel for me personally that a starter is a good idea. I don’t want to waste a batch and a brew day to dead yeast. A starter made a few days ahead of time let’s me know if I need to hold off on the brew day.

As far as pitch rates and calculators, this one yields similar results to others, including beersmith. I like the overbuild options made easy. I like the spreadsheet version which allows me to further customize.
I have no way of counting cells ton know how many I’m storing or pitching. A few extra, is a bit of insurance if there is an infection. Yeast to bacteria ratio is really what we’re after. I don’t think any batch of beer is 100% bacteria free.

If you’re going to pitch a fresh pack every batch with no starter like you stated Gordon Strong does to win Ninkasi award, then no flask is needed.

If the OP wants to know what size flask he should buy, I think we’ve provided good discussion for him to ponder and at least point him at the research he needs to do so he can decide for himself.

 

[RM-MN]

I didn't quite say that Gordon Strong pitches a single packet to win the Ninkasi but having won it he should know the difference between good, great, and bad beer. With that, he still says he often pitches a single pack to his lager.

We often blindly follow instructions without knowing why, just that someone said it should be done this way. My point was to try to make people think about what the instructions say and whether those instructions are mandatory or just a suggestion. Will making a starter get you better beer or is it just a way to spend more money for no gain? Where is the inflection point where adding more yeast doesn't improve the beer or makes it worse?

 

[FunkedOut]

I didn't quite say that Gordon Strong pitches a single packet to win the Ninkasi...

For sure, but it has a nice ring to it, the way I worded it.

...We often blindly follow instructions without knowing why, just that someone said it should be done this way. My point was to try to make people think about what the instructions say and whether those instructions are mandatory or just a suggestion....

Valid point and good advice.

...Will making a starter get you better beer or is it just a way to spend more money for no gain? Where is the inflection point where adding more yeast doesn't improve the beer or makes it worse?

I think it depends.
If you have a fresh lab pack and a 5 gallon batch, I’d say no starter required for a good/great beer. I’d still make one to set aside 100 billion cells so I save money on the next batch. DME is cheaper than yeast.
If you have that same pack and a 20 gallon batch. I’d not risk it without a starter.
10 gallon batch?

Where is the inflection point?
If I knew definitively, I’d have a different day job.

From what I’ve read, the pitch rates commonly recommended come from texts for large scale breweries that reuse a portion of the yeast batch after batch.
An overbuilt starter may be a bit better for viability than harvesting from beer with hops and higher ABV, but probably close enough to follow those recommendations.
A few articles I’ve read about those large breweries pitching with the first gen yeast from labs said they followed the same pitch rates.

I can say one thing about using the calculators.
It’s consistent.
Every time I put a jar in the fridge to cold crash, the settled yeast adds up to the same mark.
Beers will have the same 12-15 hour lag time and reach FG in 4-5 days.
And the kicker is, they consistently taste good with no off flavors.
I’m good with that.

What pitch rates are you settled on?
Why?

 

[RM-MN]

I'm mostly stuck on using dry yeast. I don't brew on a schedule and I may go months without brewing, then wake up one morning and all the right factors align for brewing. As far as I know, the nearest brewing store that would have liquid yeast is 90 miles away and it may have only a small selection so that is out but dry yeast can store in my refrigerator for a year or more and still be viable and ready to pitch at any time.

Most of my batches are 2 1/2 gallons so I don't need a lot of yeast. I've tried a whole packet, half a packet, rehydrated, sprinkled on top the foam, and dumped in the fermenter with the wort dumped on top. I even got a package of liquid and built a starter a couple times. The only real difference I have noticed is the lag time and even that isn't much different. Maybe my sense of taste isn't refined enough to notice subtle differences but I'm the one drinking my beer and I like it.

In past years I tried washing yeast and it worked well except that with the odd schedule for brewing it often sat in the refrigerator way too long and for some reason my wife though she needed room for food in there too.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I have a 3L flask, it works great for stepping up smack packs, etc. But the one time I've used it to propagate bottle dregs, it was just too large for the small initial step-up stages, and offered too much surface area which allowed mold to take up residence and compete with the fledgling yeast population. I'm now looking for a 1L flask for these smaller starters. I think you should keep it because you will likely end up using it. If you do choose to sell it, don't give it away, be sure you recover most of your cost. 1L flasks might be too small for general use, but they have their purpose for specialized tasks and are therefore valuable to the right audience.

 

[Nagorg]

My name is Nagorg... I have a 5L flask. I must admit that I'd buy a 10L flask if I could find one.

 

[Redpappy]

If the OP wants to know what size flask he should buy, I think we’ve provided good discussion for him to ponder and at least point him at the research he needs to do so he can decide for himself.

Thank you for the site to the calculator. I do not have a stir Plate as of yet, so for now i will be just doing the shaking, and from the calculator it seems that in order for me to do that, i will need to do a 2 step with the 1L flask. And as far as the information goes, everyone has given me the feed back that I was looking for. I know there are a lot of opinions on this matter. From all the you-tube videos that i have seen, which had a mix of 1L as well as 2L. I just wanted an update opinions. And I got it. Some of which is over my head, but that is ok, lots of learning.

I think Im going to try the 1L flask and see how things go. Of course have a bucket of water and some rags close by, and hope for the best, but expect the worse. Going off the calculator, I will need to do this in 2 steps. Will it be noticeable on when the starter is complete? Or would i just give it a day for the first step, cold crash, decant and then start the second step and give that a day, then pitch(figuring i time it to be complete by brew day)? And for questions #2, how long can i keep the yeast in the flask at room temp before the yeast start dying off. For instance I start the starter and it finishes on Wed, will it still be fine to pitch on Friday.