"Dark Malt" in Bavarian Weisse (NOT a dunkel)?

[cactusgarrett]

I'm curious about a reference to the use of "dark malt" in a traditional weissebier that's NOT a dunkels. In Hieronymus' "Brewing with Wheat", page 95 includes info from Josef Schneider as it pertains to the brewing of Schneider Weisse:

"His Weizenbier includes 60% wheat malt... 12% dark Munich, 3% acidulated malt, 10% Cara-hell, 10% dark malt (600 EBC) and 5% Pilsener malt."

I'm curious as to what "dark malt" would be. 600 EBC (best I can figure) works out to ~225°L, and it seems anything darker would be somewhat out of place (too dark or roasty) for a hefeweizen. A googlez for "german dark malt" only returns results related to dark munich or dark wheat.

Any thoughts on what this could be or what a reasonable substitute would be? Even using something like Special B (10% at 150 SRM) pushes the overall beer to 16 SRM, well beyond the 6 SRM upper threshold for the style.

 

[monkeymath]

Have you had Schneider Weisse? Their "normal" TAP 7 is actually quite dark, almost like a "Dunkle Weisse" from other breweries. The Weissbier of "Unertl", another great brand, has a similar color. Like most breweries, they don't really care about "brewing to style" and I think a fair point could be made about style guidelines being too narrow if some classic examples don't fit the bill.

"Dark malt" would probably be the Carafa Spezial... ? Can't really say, though.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Thanks for the info, @monkeymath . Good point on the style constraint issue; it's refreshing to have the green light and remove the style shackles.

 

[Queequeg]

Weyermann make a dark malt, it could be that. Doubt at 10% it's carafa as the beer will end up pitch black and tasting very roasted.

 

[Queequeg]

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/wey-fm-bohemian-dark-25kg

 

[Miraculix]

Maybe ask the question who was there first, German breweries brewing Weissbier according to their recipes, or American brewers trying to set up "Style" guides for the whole world?

 

[cactusgarrett]

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/wey-fm-bohemian-dark-25kg

Sounds good, but nowhere near 600 EBC. As monkeymath mentioned above, it's not to style, but the result would still be very close to the original Tap 7.

 

[Vale71]

Sorry, but who is this Josef Schneider fellow and what does he have to do with Schneider Weisse?

The famous Munich brewery has been owned by a long series of Georg Schneiders. We're currently at Georg Schneider VI. and counting. Well, except for a time when the current owner's grandmother became a widow and did something that was still quite revolutionary for a woman at the time, i.e. she took over the business instead of selling it outside the family. That Was Mathilde Schneider.

And no way any of the current Schneider Weisse beers has 10% of Carafa I (Special or otherwise) which is the only thing that comes close to 600 EBC.

 

[Queequeg]

Sounds good, but nowhere near 600 EBC. As monkeymath mentioned above, it's not to style, but the result would still be very close to the original Tap 7.

I suppose what i have trouble with is a 600 ebc malt in wheat beer which is not a dunkle.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I suppose what i have trouble with is a 600 ebc malt in wheat beer which is not a dunkle.

I know, right? I'm all for a "styles be damned" attitude, but that's a hard pill to swallow.

 

[Queequeg]

I know, right? I'm all for a "styles be damned" attitude, but that's a hard pill to swallow.

also what is 5% pils going to achieve? imo not much.

 

[monkeymath]

Yeah, 10% of 600 EBC dark malt sounds more fitting for their former special release "Schneider Weisse TAP X : Meine Porter Weisse". I guess there has been a slip-up in the quantity used (and possibly the first name as well, as Vale71 pointed out above) or the EBC rating.
But still, the BJCP guidelines seem to be based on Weihenstephan (which could be attributed to its worldwide distribution) and too narrow imho.

 

[Vale71]

Except Hyeronimus' book was written a few years before Schneider released the limited edition Porter Weisse.
So, unless he could time travel, I think it's more likely that he was a bit too inventive and not careful enough with the fact checking when he wrote that part. In other words, the name is probably not the only part that doesn't match actual reality...

 

[greenjam]

Weiss is not the same as weizen, both are wheat beers but Weiss means white, so I don't think dark malts can be used in a weiss

 

[Miraculix]

Weiss is not the same as weizen, both are wheat beers but Weiss means white, so I don't think dark malts can be used in a weiss

Weissbier and Weizenbier is synonymous.

 

[greenjam]

Weissbier and Weizenbier is synonymous.

Incorrect, in German Weiss means white and weizen means weat, to be called weiss the beer needs to be very light in color

But apart from the color they are similar

 

[Miraculix]

Incorrect, in German Weiss means white and weizen means weat, to be called weiss the beer needs to be very light in color

But apart from the color they are similar

Thanks mate, I'm German.

 

[monkeymath]

@Vale71 I did not say in any way that this actually related to the mentioned TAP X. but thanks for the explanation about time travel, I appreciate it.

Incorrect, in German Weiss means white and weizen means weat, to be called weiss the beer needs to be very light in color

But apart from the color they are similar

I don't know where you would get such information, but I wholeheartedly disagree. First, the origin of the term "Weißbier" seems to be a bit unclear, with two main theories: less plausibly, it is literally merely a lazy pronunciation of "Weizenbier", or, more likely, a designation to distinguish it from the fashionable "Braunbier" of former times. Still, not necessarily "weiß" in the actual sense of the word.

Second, the terms are used 100% interchangeably by breweries and consumers alike, although in Munich "Weißbier" is the preferred term, whereas people in Northern Germany (and possibly other parts as well) prefer to call it "Weizen". But nobody ever looks at a beer and says "huh, this is not really a Weißbier, but more of a Weizen".

 

[Miraculix]

@Vale71 I did not say in any way that this actually related to the mentioned TAP X. but thanks for the explanation about time travel, I appreciate it.



I don't know where you would get such information, but I wholeheartedly disagree. First, the origin of the term "Weißbier" seems to be a bit unclear, with two main theories: less plausibly, it is literally merely a lazy pronunciation of "Weizenbier", or, more likely, a designation to distinguish it from the fashionable "Braunbier" of former times. Still, not necessarily "weiß" in the actual sense of the word.

Second, the terms are used 100% interchangeably by breweries and consumers alike, although in Munich "Weißbier" is the preferred term, whereas people in Northern Germany (and possibly other parts as well) prefer to call it "Weizen". But nobody ever looks at a beer and says "huh, this is not really a Weißbier, but more of a Weizen".

That seems to be correct, from my humble point of view being a northern German since now more than 30 years myself.

 

[monkeymath]

Of course you can come up with artificial boundaries concerning styles and make up your own language, but then you should have the decency to use a new vocabulary altogether instead of mixing up the terminology of traditional producers and local consumers.

That seems to be correct, from my humble point of view being a northern German since now more than 30 years myself.

<bavarian mumbling>
A Preiß is oawei bessa ois wia so a japanischer Saupreiß der voazoit, a Weißbier miassat weiß sei.
</bavarian mumbling>

 

[greenjam]

Thanks mate, I'm German.

[emoji106]I'm not

 

[greenjam]

@Vale71 I did not say in any way that this actually related to the mentioned TAP X. but thanks for the explanation about time travel, I appreciate it.



I don't know where you would get such information, but I wholeheartedly disagree. First, the origin of the term "Weißbier" seems to be a bit unclear, with two main theories: less plausibly, it is literally merely a lazy pronunciation of "Weizenbier", or, more likely, a designation to distinguish it from the fashionable "Braunbier" of former times. Still, not necessarily "weiß" in the actual sense of the word.

Second, the terms are used 100% interchangeably by breweries and consumers alike, although in Munich "Weißbier" is the preferred term, whereas people in Northern Germany (and possibly other parts as well) prefer to call it "Weizen". But nobody ever looks at a beer and says "huh, this is not really a Weißbier, but more of a Weizen".

"more likely, a designation to distinguish it from the fashionable "Braunbier" of former times. Still, not necessarily "weiß" in the actual sense of the word"

that's what I've read about it, nowadays the two terms are used almost as sinonimous but they had different origins

Weiss Bier where very light beers in color that used lots of weat
Of course they are not white, or they would be milk

 

[Vale71]

that's what I've read about it, nowadays the two terms are used almost as sinonimous but they had different origins

That strongly depends on the locale. Order a Weissbier in Berlin and you'll get served some type of Pils. I did manage to get my beer exchanged for an actual Weizen but I also got lots of dirty looks from the "Bedienung", like she was serving a complete idiot or something. Berliners are not always particularly warm and fuzzy...

So Weissbier does seem to generically mean "light colored beer" but how that translates into an actual beer style varies from region to region. It also follows that no one would ever call a Dunkelweizen a Weissbier no matter how much wheat malt was in the grist.

 

[monkeymath]

Weissbier does seem to generically mean "light colored beer" but how that translates into an actual beer style varies from region to region.

I don't really get the misunderstanding between you and that waitress in Berlin (I suppose she misheard) but this last sentence is not actually true. A Pils or Helles, although lighter in color than the average Weißbier, is by no means ever a Weißbier. (Berliner Weisse is of course a different beast altogether.) In the other direction, a Weißbier can be quite dark in color (Schneider TAP 7, Unertl).

It also follows that no one would ever call a Dunkelweizen a Weissbier no matter how much wheat malt was in the grist.

In Munich, "Dunkelweizen" is called "dunkles Weißbier". It is just a particular kind of Weißbier. You'll often find "helles Weißbier" and "dunkles Weißbier" on the menu.

 

[Vale71]

I don't really get the misunderstanding between you and that waitress in Berlin (I suppose she misheard) but this last sentence is not actually true.

You have no idea what you're talking about and you're just spouting nonsense. From now on for me you're just a troll, I'm done wasting my time with you. Bye.

 

[Miraculix]

Unbelievable.

 

[Bierkrug]

You have no idea what you're talking about and you're just spouting nonsense. From now on for me you're just a troll, I'm done wasting my time with you. Bye.

He's right with everything he said. There are no regional differences, the term 'Weißbier' is just used more in the south, Weizenbier in the North. I live in a region where both is quite common.

Just google 'dunkle Weiße' or 'dunkles Weißbier' and you'll see that Dunkelweizen and dunkle Weiße is the same thing.

But maybe Erdinger, Paulaner and König Ludwig are just plain wrong and you need to give those Krauts a proper lesson about German beer.

 

[Vale71]

I'll tell that to my Berliner friends who confirmed that I was in the wrong (in the given context) but what do they know, they were just born and lived their whole life there so I'm sure some American keyboard warriors must know better than them...

 

[monkeymath]

I'm sorry if my posts have offended you, but I am neither a 'troll' nor an 'American keyboard warrior'. Just a Bavarian dude that was trying to clear up some misconceptions.

Tell your friends in Berlin I said hi!

 

[Miraculix]

I'm sorry if my posts have offended you, but I am neither a 'troll' nor an 'American keyboard warrior'. Just a Bavarian dude that was trying to clear up some misconceptions.

Tell your friends in Berlin I said hi!

You are most likely on his ignore list now which means that he does not see your posts anymore. I am also on it for similar, well let's say, polarising reasons.