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"Dark Malt" in Bavarian Weisse (NOT a dunkel)?

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cactusgarrett

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I'm curious about a reference to the use of "dark malt" in a traditional weissebier that's NOT a dunkels. In Hieronymus' "Brewing with Wheat", page 95 includes info from Josef Schneider as it pertains to the brewing of Schneider Weisse:

"His Weizenbier includes 60% wheat malt... 12% dark Munich, 3% acidulated malt, 10% Cara-hell, 10% dark malt (600 EBC) and 5% Pilsener malt."

I'm curious as to what "dark malt" would be. 600 EBC (best I can figure) works out to ~225°L, and it seems anything darker would be somewhat out of place (too dark or roasty) for a hefeweizen. A googlez for "german dark malt" only returns results related to dark munich or dark wheat.

Any thoughts on what this could be or what a reasonable substitute would be? Even using something like Special B (10% at 150 SRM) pushes the overall beer to 16 SRM, well beyond the 6 SRM upper threshold for the style.
 

monkeymath

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Have you had Schneider Weisse? Their "normal" TAP 7 is actually quite dark, almost like a "Dunkle Weisse" from other breweries. The Weissbier of "Unertl", another great brand, has a similar color. Like most breweries, they don't really care about "brewing to style" and I think a fair point could be made about style guidelines being too narrow if some classic examples don't fit the bill.

"Dark malt" would probably be the Carafa Spezial... ? Can't really say, though.
 
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cactusgarrett

cactusgarrett

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Thanks for the info, @monkeymath . Good point on the style constraint issue; it's refreshing to have the green light and remove the style shackles.
 

Queequeg

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Weyermann make a dark malt, it could be that. Doubt at 10% it's carafa as the beer will end up pitch black and tasting very roasted.
 

Miraculix

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Maybe ask the question who was there first, German breweries brewing Weissbier according to their recipes, or American brewers trying to set up "Style" guides for the whole world?
 

Vale71

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Sorry, but who is this Josef Schneider fellow and what does he have to do with Schneider Weisse?

The famous Munich brewery has been owned by a long series of Georg Schneiders. We're currently at Georg Schneider VI. and counting. Well, except for a time when the current owner's grandmother became a widow and did something that was still quite revolutionary for a woman at the time, i.e. she took over the business instead of selling it outside the family. That Was Mathilde Schneider.

And no way any of the current Schneider Weisse beers has 10% of Carafa I (Special or otherwise) which is the only thing that comes close to 600 EBC.
 

Queequeg

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Sounds good, but nowhere near 600 EBC. As monkeymath mentioned above, it's not to style, but the result would still be very close to the original Tap 7.
I suppose what i have trouble with is a 600 ebc malt in wheat beer which is not a dunkle.
 

monkeymath

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Yeah, 10% of 600 EBC dark malt sounds more fitting for their former special release "Schneider Weisse TAP X : Meine Porter Weisse". I guess there has been a slip-up in the quantity used (and possibly the first name as well, as Vale71 pointed out above) or the EBC rating.
But still, the BJCP guidelines seem to be based on Weihenstephan (which could be attributed to its worldwide distribution) and too narrow imho.
 

Vale71

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Except Hyeronimus' book was written a few years before Schneider released the limited edition Porter Weisse.
So, unless he could time travel, I think it's more likely that he was a bit too inventive and not careful enough with the fact checking when he wrote that part. In other words, the name is probably not the only part that doesn't match actual reality...
 

greenjam

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Weiss is not the same as weizen, both are wheat beers but Weiss means white, so I don't think dark malts can be used in a weiss
 

greenjam

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Weissbier and Weizenbier is synonymous.
Incorrect, in German Weiss means white and weizen means weat, to be called weiss the beer needs to be very light in color

But apart from the color they are similar
 

monkeymath

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@Vale71 I did not say in any way that this actually related to the mentioned TAP X. but thanks for the explanation about time travel, I appreciate it.

Incorrect, in German Weiss means white and weizen means weat, to be called weiss the beer needs to be very light in color

But apart from the color they are similar
I don't know where you would get such information, but I wholeheartedly disagree. First, the origin of the term "Weißbier" seems to be a bit unclear, with two main theories: less plausibly, it is literally merely a lazy pronunciation of "Weizenbier", or, more likely, a designation to distinguish it from the fashionable "Braunbier" of former times. Still, not necessarily "weiß" in the actual sense of the word.

Second, the terms are used 100% interchangeably by breweries and consumers alike, although in Munich "Weißbier" is the preferred term, whereas people in Northern Germany (and possibly other parts as well) prefer to call it "Weizen". But nobody ever looks at a beer and says "huh, this is not really a Weißbier, but more of a Weizen".
 

Miraculix

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@Vale71 I did not say in any way that this actually related to the mentioned TAP X. but thanks for the explanation about time travel, I appreciate it.



I don't know where you would get such information, but I wholeheartedly disagree. First, the origin of the term "Weißbier" seems to be a bit unclear, with two main theories: less plausibly, it is literally merely a lazy pronunciation of "Weizenbier", or, more likely, a designation to distinguish it from the fashionable "Braunbier" of former times. Still, not necessarily "weiß" in the actual sense of the word.

Second, the terms are used 100% interchangeably by breweries and consumers alike, although in Munich "Weißbier" is the preferred term, whereas people in Northern Germany (and possibly other parts as well) prefer to call it "Weizen". But nobody ever looks at a beer and says "huh, this is not really a Weißbier, but more of a Weizen".
That seems to be correct, from my humble point of view being a northern German since now more than 30 years myself.
 

monkeymath

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Of course you can come up with artificial boundaries concerning styles and make up your own language, but then you should have the decency to use a new vocabulary altogether instead of mixing up the terminology of traditional producers and local consumers.

That seems to be correct, from my humble point of view being a northern German since now more than 30 years myself.
<bavarian mumbling>
A Preiß is oawei bessa ois wia so a japanischer Saupreiß der voazoit, a Weißbier miassat weiß sei.
</bavarian mumbling>
 
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greenjam

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@Vale71 I did not say in any way that this actually related to the mentioned TAP X. but thanks for the explanation about time travel, I appreciate it.



I don't know where you would get such information, but I wholeheartedly disagree. First, the origin of the term "Weißbier" seems to be a bit unclear, with two main theories: less plausibly, it is literally merely a lazy pronunciation of "Weizenbier", or, more likely, a designation to distinguish it from the fashionable "Braunbier" of former times. Still, not necessarily "weiß" in the actual sense of the word.

Second, the terms are used 100% interchangeably by breweries and consumers alike, although in Munich "Weißbier" is the preferred term, whereas people in Northern Germany (and possibly other parts as well) prefer to call it "Weizen". But nobody ever looks at a beer and says "huh, this is not really a Weißbier, but more of a Weizen".
"more likely, a designation to distinguish it from the fashionable "Braunbier" of former times. Still, not necessarily "weiß" in the actual sense of the word"

that's what I've read about it, nowadays the two terms are used almost as sinonimous but they had different origins

Weiss Bier where very light beers in color that used lots of weat
Of course they are not white, or they would be milk
 

Vale71

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that's what I've read about it, nowadays the two terms are used almost as sinonimous but they had different origins
That strongly depends on the locale. Order a Weissbier in Berlin and you'll get served some type of Pils. I did manage to get my beer exchanged for an actual Weizen but I also got lots of dirty looks from the "Bedienung", like she was serving a complete idiot or something. Berliners are not always particularly warm and fuzzy... :(

So Weissbier does seem to generically mean "light colored beer" but how that translates into an actual beer style varies from region to region. It also follows that no one would ever call a Dunkelweizen a Weissbier no matter how much wheat malt was in the grist.
 

monkeymath

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Weissbier does seem to generically mean "light colored beer" but how that translates into an actual beer style varies from region to region.
I don't really get the misunderstanding between you and that waitress in Berlin (I suppose she misheard) but this last sentence is not actually true. A Pils or Helles, although lighter in color than the average Weißbier, is by no means ever a Weißbier. (Berliner Weisse is of course a different beast altogether.) In the other direction, a Weißbier can be quite dark in color (Schneider TAP 7, Unertl).

It also follows that no one would ever call a Dunkelweizen a Weissbier no matter how much wheat malt was in the grist.
In Munich, "Dunkelweizen" is called "dunkles Weißbier". It is just a particular kind of Weißbier. You'll often find "helles Weißbier" and "dunkles Weißbier" on the menu.
 

Vale71

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I don't really get the misunderstanding between you and that waitress in Berlin (I suppose she misheard) but this last sentence is not actually true.
You have no idea what you're talking about and you're just spouting nonsense. From now on for me you're just a troll, I'm done wasting my time with you. Bye.
 

Bierkrug

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You have no idea what you're talking about and you're just spouting nonsense. From now on for me you're just a troll, I'm done wasting my time with you. Bye.
He's right with everything he said. There are no regional differences, the term 'Weißbier' is just used more in the south, Weizenbier in the North. I live in a region where both is quite common.

Just google 'dunkle Weiße' or 'dunkles Weißbier' and you'll see that Dunkelweizen and dunkle Weiße is the same thing.

But maybe Erdinger, Paulaner and König Ludwig are just plain wrong and you need to give those Krauts a proper lesson about German beer.
 

Vale71

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I'll tell that to my Berliner friends who confirmed that I was in the wrong (in the given context) but what do they know, they were just born and lived their whole life there so I'm sure some American keyboard warriors must know better than them...
 

monkeymath

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I'm sorry if my posts have offended you, but I am neither a 'troll' nor an 'American keyboard warrior'. Just a Bavarian dude that was trying to clear up some misconceptions.

Tell your friends in Berlin I said hi!
 

Miraculix

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I'm sorry if my posts have offended you, but I am neither a 'troll' nor an 'American keyboard warrior'. Just a Bavarian dude that was trying to clear up some misconceptions.

Tell your friends in Berlin I said hi!
You are most likely on his ignore list now which means that he does not see your posts anymore. I am also on it for similar, well let's say, polarising reasons.
 

greenjam

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Just got this from brew and brewing magazine:

White Beer in Belgium, Yesterday and Today
Commonly known as witbier—because the most famous example comes from Flanders—white beer went from being a historical obscurity to one of the most popular types of beer in Belgium.

Wit in Dutch does not mean “wheat,” it means “white”—probably because of its very pale yet hazy appearance. French-speakers translate it literally: bière blanche. (Likewise, in Germany, Weissbier literally means “white beer,” not “wheat beer.”)

Traditionally, the thing that makes it white beer is not necessarily wheat at all, but the presence of unmalted grains, such as wheat, oats, spelt, or even unsalted barley. Most likely this sprang from the farm-brewing practice of using whatever grains were at hand—thus witbier may be seen as a distant cousin of saison, most often associated with Hainaut, and of lambic, which hails from the same region (though on the opposite side of Brussels) and traditionally includes a portion of unmalted wheat. According to Senne brewer (and beer historian) Yvan De Baets, it’s reasonable to suppose that proto-versions of white beer were of mixed fermentation.

However the modern archetype is Hoegaarden, a throwback first brewed by Pierre Celis in the mid-1960s—a few years after the style had gone fully extinct. How often this type of beer was spiced in the old days is unclear, but that is how Celis remembered it, so he added coriander and Curaçao orange peel. Hopping is light in the classic version (but not necessarily in those now extinct or re-invented). The yeast tends to bring gentle clove-like phenolics and may finish with a subtle, quenching acidity.

Over a couple of decades when independent Belgian brewers and unique styles were disappearing due to buyouts and consolidation by companies like Interbew, Hoegaarden became a beacon of independence and beer of character. Contemporary with Fritz Maytag’s turnaround of Anchor Steam in California, the beer helped to inspire a global craft revival. (So it might be seen as ironic that Interbrew, which later became A-B InBev, later bought Hoegaarden.)

These days in Belgium it is extremely difficult to find a beer menu without at least one wit or blanche on it—usually Hoegaarden.

What is White Beer?
According to the Oxford Companion to Beer

White Beer is an unfiltered, top-fermented style of wheat beer also known as witbier (Flemish) and bière blanche (French). “White” refers to the unfiltered, cloudy whiteness of the beer as it appears in a glass. This style originated in the Middle Ages in Belgium and is uniquely different from other traditional wheat beers, such as those of Germany. Whereas the German white or wheat beers are made with only malted wheat, malted barley, and hops, the white beers of Belgium usually include unmalted wheat as an adjunct, spices, and sometimes oats. The percentage of unmalted grains in the grist can approach 50%, though 30% to 40% is more common. Specifically, Belgian-style white beers were traditionally produced in the Flemish region of Belgium where brewers had access to cereal grains from the region’s farms, and access to spices from the neighboring country of Netherlands.

White beer, though popular since the Middle Ages, decreased in popularity in the early 1900s, mainly due to the advent of golden lager. The low point in white beer history came in the 1950s when the last white beer brewery, in Hoegaarden, Belgium, closed its doors. The revival of this style of beer can be attributed to one man, Pierre Celis. Celis was a milkman who in the mid-1960s started a new brewery called De Kluis. De Kluis was dedicated to brewing a white beer called Hoegaarden, named after the town in which it was brewed. Celis had worked as a young man in the Tomsin brewery in Hoegaarden before it ceased production. He remembered a lot about white beer brewing from his early days in the brewery and from talking to townspeople who remembered the taste of white beers when they were commercially available. Hoegaarden white beer soon became quite popular and has been emulated by many brewers in Belgium and around the world.

From the 1990s onward white beer production increased in volume significantly, due mainly to two commercially available examples, Hoegaarden, a traditional Belgian-style white beer, and MillerCoors’ Blue Moon Belgian White, a “Belgo-American-style” white beer.

Traditional Belgian-style white beer is made with malted barley and unmalted wheat. Some variations include other grains, such as oats or spelt. It is spiced with a small quantity of hops to keep the bitterness low. Other spices traditionally include coriander and Curaçao orange peel. Further, some variations add more unique spices to achieve an even more complex flavor. The yeast should typically be a Belgian ale yeast that produces unique fruity and spicy flavor notes. During the mashing process, many traditional white beer brewers employ a long, tepid mash rest, which promotes lactic acid production. This gives the beer a slight, refreshing tartness that is no doubt a throwback to the days when many beers, especially in warmer weather, had an unintentional tang of acidity from bacterial activity. The appearance of a traditional white beer is very pale yellow in color with a slight haziness and a rich, foamy head. The haze is mainly protein with a small amount of yeast. The aroma is citrusy, spicy, and fruity, and the body is light. The taste is slightly tart, but balanced with light malt and wheat flavors, as well as complex citrus and spice notes for a refreshing taste. Americans have been given to putting slices of lemon or orange into white beers, perhaps wishing to accentuate the beer’s bright citrus character. While white beer isn’t treated this way in Belgium, some bars in the Netherlands have adopted the practice, occasionally going so far as to provide plastic muddlers for those wishing even more lemon character in the beer. The alcohol content of traditional white beer is between 4.5% and 5.0% ABV.

Unmalted wheat is difficult to work with, and some brewers have produced their own variants on Belgian white beer, particularly in the United States where the popular Blue Moon brand has brought greater attention to the style. This beer is spiced with a small quantity of hops to keep the bitterness low, approximately two-thirds the bitterness of traditional white beer. In addition to hops, it is spiced with coriander and Valencia orange peel. No lactic acid production is promoted during the mashing step, the yeast flavors are clean and mild, and the beer is a very cloudy gold color in appearance. At 5.4% ABV, this medium-bodied beer is slightly stronger than the traditional version and has an overall orange-citrusy flavor and aroma. The brewery has promoted the use of an orange slice to garnish the glass since 1997.

In addition to white beer, some brewers have produced stronger “grand cru” versions of white beer for holidays or special occasions. Grand cru white beers have similar tastes and aromas as regular white beers, but are more full-bodied and intense. These usually have between 8% and 10% ABV, but if well brewed can be pleasantly balanced and expressive beers.

Keith Villa
 
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