Craft Beer Price Sticker Shock!

[bobeer]

Was just reminded that Cycle Brewing in St. Pete, FL sells their Monday-Friday 24oz bombers for $30 a bottle. LOL. People line up to get it too... I'll never understand that.

 

[Newsman]

Was just reminded that Cycle Brewing in St. Pete, FL sells their Monday-Friday 24oz bombers for $30 a bottle. LOL. People line up to get it too... I'll never understand that.

Because they can. SOMEONE is stupid enough to apy $30/bottle for a bomber. As the famous saying goes, "There's a sucker born every minute"

 

[Brownalemikie]

Yep craft breweries are steep in pricing their beers. I go to Marker 48 brewery in Brooksville, FL and spend $6 for a 8% brown ale then I go home and drink my HB brown.

 

[passedpawn]

Was just reminded that Cycle Brewing in St. Pete, FL sells their Monday-Friday 24oz bombers for $30 a bottle. LOL. People line up to get it too... I'll never understand that.

Only a few years ago that "brewery" was part of Peg's Cantina in Gulfport. I used to ride my bike there and drink that beer under the trees, halfway through my ride. They got big time since then.

I like that people will pay big dollars for beer. It shows they really love it and appreciate quality. I'd guess those people don't have 3 kids in college

 

[madscientist451]

They are charging what the market will bear. Its simple economics 101. When demand falls and production remains the same, prices will drop. But demand isn't falling. People are willing to pay ridiculous prices for alcoholic beverages.
I don't see anything changing anytime soon.
There are many threads that have as a theme "homebrewing doesn't save any money"
But if you brew beers that are expensive to buy retail, you can save some money, if you don't factor in the value of your time.

 

[Transamguy77]

After reading some more of these posts one theme keeps coming up "that we don't want to pay for beer when we can make beer that tastes better"

Maybe that's what it is, not that the beer is over priced but that the price doesn't match the quality. I've had some beers that were just meh and some other beers that I feel ripped off that they even charged me, I feel like I should have been paid to drink it.

We all love craft beer and that's why we craft it ourselves and I think it is why we are frustrated with the quality and prices of how the market is.

 

[MaryB]

BUT going out and sampling different beers s a great way to try new styles or even the same style but from a different brewer to see what their twist is. Then take those ideas you get and apply them to your own brew sessions to see what you can create.

So paying $8 doesn't bother me in the least even if I pour it down the sink because it is nasty. I learn from it!

Well, it appears you're missing my point, which places the blame on probably me for not making it as clear as it could be.

My cost has nothing to do with their price, you're correct on that. But the difference between their price and my cost is the issue here. That's the key item in the decisionmaking.

I'm not a professional brewer so I am not bound to count my labor as somehow factoring into my cost. They do. I get it, that's patently obvious.

The key here is each of us make a decision trying to decide if the difference between our cost and their price, while factoring in the quality of what we brew, is great enough to justify the time and effort spent brewing. That decision may be different for everyone, and that's fine.




You're arguing something nobody is disputing. Yes, commercial breweries have issues i don't have to deal with. The issue is the difference between what I pay to brew (less than $1/pint) and what I have to pay to buy their stuff--which may or may not be as good.

I showed earlier that valuing your time only matters if you're brewing instead of doing something else that would make money. If, in not brewing, you aren't spending that time earning money in some other capacity, then the value of that time is zero. Ergo, my "business model" is cheaper than theirs. Has to be. And that's why I don't buy beer commercially except when I'm out.

 

[MaryB]

Instead of cloning someone's work I look at a style then think about what "I" like in it then make my own version that is a new recipe. Sure some have been so-so flops, some have been hits. That is my streak of creativity slipping in to make something BETTER is I can!

Looking at craft beer vs home brewing may be likened to my neighbor baking cakes in her home to sell. She makes cakes that rival the very best bakeries in town. She charges half the going rate and can do so since she doesn't consider her mortgage, taxes, utilities, insurance on her home as part of her operational costs. She lives there, enjoys baking cakes as a hobby she loves, and only wants to cover the cost of her ingredients with a sale of a cake.

We all love home brewing as a hobby or probably wouldn't be on this forum. I don't count my time as labor, nor do I factor in my water bill, electricity or any other household bills when I determine that it cost me $XX to brew a keg. In that regards, we are comparing apples to oranges. Maybe it does cost a top end brewery more than we think to produce excellent products once you factor in all costs, labor, transportation, distribution, etc.

It remains our choice to buy top dollar craft beers, but if we stopped buying them, would the price drop? Or would the product simply go away? If it went away, we could think the margin was tighter than we may have thought and they can't cut the price. If the price dropped, they simply readjusted their profit structure to meet supply/demand equilibrium.

But, in the micro scheme to me personally, I'll be dammed if I plan on paying $13.99 for a 4-pack of 12 oz bottles for a beer I can make at home which is every bit as good...or better, than they brew. I am blessed I can do this, but for many of the rest of the craft beer affectionados, they may not have this skill available. If they like a beer, they are held hostage by pricing schemes. I just figure out a way to clone the beer.

 

[jmcquesten]

I think a lot of these places know that their beer isn't good enough to attract repeat customers, so they try to get as much out of people on what could be their only visit to the brewery. I've tried many of my local breweries' offerings...ONCE. For me, that was enough for most of them. Maybe they see some of the really good beers and just assume they can charge what those good breweries are charging, not realizing that they aren't in the same league. It seems like anyone that finds some investors and turns this hobby into a business thinks they are the next (insert well known brewery i.e. RUSSIAN RIVER, ALCHEMIST, JESTER KING, etc.) big thing, when really they're just trying to sell mediocre "homebrew".

I'm sure they'll figure out as the fads shift and people start to realize that each one of these breweries are doing pretty much the same thing. When I go into a place and they have the "typical" beer selection (blonde ale, pale ale, ipa, overly hopped wheat beer, maybe a double ipa, and a stout), my expectations go down. I know they want to have a variety, but when every brewery in the area is selling the same selection, it's not really variety and it's harder to make yours stand out.

 

[b-boy]

I think you know you're in for a bad time when you walk into a prewpub and they have:

• 1 IPA
• 1 Pale Ale
• 1 Amber
• 1 Stout

When I see this list, it usually means I'm in for some mediocre beer. They don't have a brewer with the skills or interest to take a few chances, so they offer the 'basic' beer list. There's a place like this in Buffalo. Their beer menu never changes. They have 1-2 OK offerings, but everything else is just meh. I always get the same thing when I go there because it's 'safe'.

 

[Morrey]

Instead of cloning someone's work I look at a style then think about what "I" like in it then make my own version that is a new recipe. Sure some have been so-so flops, some have been hits. That is my streak of creativity slipping in to make something BETTER is I can!

I certainly agree, MaryB, and you make a good point in that as home brewers we can have it "Our Way". To give an example of my take on your thought's, I was impressed with a hoppy wheat beer called Gumball Head by Three Floyds. SO my first attempt was to dial in a recipe that was just like this...but my experimentation began after my initial success. I like the beer I cloned, but then I started wondering how some Sorachi Ace dry hops would compliment the single hop Amarillo used throughout the clone. Winner! I agree, MaryB, you make a good point and I bet you make some really great beers with your creativity.

 

[mongoose33]

BUT going out and sampling different beers s a great way to try new styles or even the same style but from a different brewer to see what their twist is. Then take those ideas you get and apply them to your own brew sessions to see what you can create.

So paying $8 doesn't bother me in the least even if I pour it down the sink because it is nasty. I learn from it!

I think the difference here is whether we're doing more than just sampling.

Some people are very interested in trying different beers all the time. I have a friend like that, loves to add his opinions to Ratebeer, like that. I rarely see him drink the same beer twice.

Me, I'm different. If I find a really good-tasting beer, I will want more of it. I'll go down the taplist until I find something that really pleases me, then I stop because...well, I've found something that pleases me.

**********************

Post interlude: to me, this is a statistical issue known as regression to the mean, though it's not a result of a poor measure changing its value upon remeasurement, instead I think of it as a distribution of all beers. If I find a beer that is in the very upper-end of the "pleases me" distribution, the odds that I'll find anything else that night as good or better are low. So I'll stop at that beer, knowing it's unlikely anything will exceed it and ordering more will simply cost me money with the additional expense of disappointing me. But I digress....

*****************

Now, none of this makes me wrong, or you wrong, to enjoy the beer hobby the individualized way we do. I'd personally have a hard time spending $8 on a beer just to see what it is, only to have it be a dumper. I usually ask for taster or, if they have flights, I'll do that. And if I somehow order a full pint that *is* a dumper, well, I won't finish it and I'll notify the bartender.

When I do that they've asked me what else I'd like instead, and I get that to replace the dumper.

 

[Bosh]

I love when people think this way on a very specific subject. your cost has nothing to do with their price. Sure, you can go make your own beer and be happy and never buy commercial beer again. Go for it. Doesn't change the fact that commercial breweries have additional cost that naturally makes prices higher. The fact that some push the prices higher than others is just capitalism and the fact that apparently others think it's ok.

You can have the same discussion about almost anything. I do my own car work. The cost to do this is significantly lower than going to a shop (if I ignore the value of my own time since I generally work slower than a shop). But a shop has to assign value to the time spent by the mechanic and pay him as such. they also have to pay for the building, insurance, and a whole slew of other things that I don't. There is also the risk that I screw up a repair and make something else worse. Is that risk larger than the additional cost of going to a shop I can then point blame on later? That's a decision that's different for everyone.

Similarly I could go make my own bolts and nuts. I have access to all the machines. Stock is cheap. But it won't be cheaper than just buying from the store.

Examples fall all over the spectrum. In this case, sure it's cheaper to make beer at home. eventually. once you forget just what you've spent both in dollars and time to buy the equipment and set it up. But that has zero impact on what retail cost should be because it doesn't involve all the same factors.

Yup, it's completely unfair to compare my cost with their price. On top of everything else they have to pay a lot of tax that I don't.

But you know what? I don't care how unfair it is. I'm not going to pay ten times what it costs me to make beer. That's not the fault of the breweries, they have no choice, but why their beer costs so much more than mine is completely irrelevant to me.

 

[Genuine]

They might as well make hay when they can. If there market is there and they have customers there to support it, then whynot. I'll continue to buy the beers I can afford and pick up some of the expensive ones for special occasions, which is what I do with most anything else.

 

[bonecitybrewco]

The craft beer market is quickly heading the way of wine and it's no wonder the market is expected to contract this year.

 

[catdaddy66]

When I began homebrewing in the mid 1990's beer was priced for the blue collar worker, and prices were within a buck or two for a bottle (12oz) no matter the brand.

Those days are long gone!

 

[mj1angier]

Here is one thing that alway holds true:

When you are buying, the price is never low enough.

When you are selling, the price is never high enough.


I am sure that most folks on here think that what they are selling- that may just be you time for a hourly wage- is worth more than they get.

 

[Bosh]

When I began homebrewing in the mid 1990's beer was priced for the blue collar worker, and prices were within a buck or two for a bottle (12oz) no matter the brand.

Those days are long gone!

There are still some old school craft beer brands if you look for them. For example Geary's of Maine which opened all the way back in 1984. Their pale ale is nothing like you're standard APA, it's mild, malty and earthy like an English bitter without being too sweet. Nothing that'll make anyone gush with praise (gets terrible scores on RateBeer for being boring) and decades behind the times but it's well made, goes over well with the family and most importantly it's only barely more expensive than BMC.

 

[Bosh]

When I began homebrewing in the mid 1990's beer was priced for the blue collar worker, and prices were within a buck or two for a bottle (12oz) no matter the brand.

Those days are long gone!

It's interesting how craft beer has really established a presence here in Korea over the last few years but has done it in a completely different way than in America.

The main clientele is trendy young women. Wine has been popular long enough (when I first got to Korea in 2003 I remember seeing an entire shelf of Manischewitz but those days are long gone) and being able to know your craft beer seems like it's becoming a way to show off being cultured and international in much the same way that knowing your way around wine is in the states. In craft brew bars (especially the ones far away from heavy concentrations of foreigners) I regularly see the crowd being 60% female or occasionally even more with a lot of the guys obviously being on dates and lots of expensive handbags in sight.

But the prices are really painful. If you're lucky you can find bottled Korean craft in the big stores for about $3 a bottle and for whatever reason the good breweries don't bottle at all so you're going to get the equivalent of highly mediocre 90's "something for everyone" brewpub beer. SNPA is nearly $6 a bottle and I don't care how good Sculpin is I'm not paying over $7 for a bottle of it, especially since it's probably spent a week or two in a badly overheated shipping container and then sat in a warehouse for god knows how long. Got one beer that had a honest to god fish aroma, I'm starting to think that American distributors are dumping their expired beer on markets like Korea that don't know any better.

Still, give Korea a few more years and we'll have some good stuff coming out of Korea. The citron gose I had a few weeks ago was absolutely perfect despite the rest of the brewery's offerings being a bit "eh."

 

[shoreman]

"Craft beer" has changed tremendously over the past few years. The competition is steep, there's serious investors involved now and you see jobs like "business analyst" at these 40bbl breweries.

Long gone are the days of cobbling together some old dairy gear & getting your friends to chip in $50k for a loan and you are off and running.

Cost of living has skyrocketed in the US as well so if you want to pull a living wage from your brewery, you better have some pretty high margins.

The hop shortage and gas prices around GWBush era saw a big increase in price of craft beer (and most other goods) and it never rolled back price-wise from there.

Someone else mentioned ROI as well, which is very valid in today's investor based craft market. Investors want a return and not in 20 years.

All these things and more are what I'm seeing as a perfect price storm in "craft beer". I've been buying craft since the 90's and worked in the industry but have yet to see these prices and markups. I mean I used to buy 750's of ommegang for $3.50.

Personally I stick with a lot of the classics - Orval is $5 a bottle as well as Rochefort. Why would I pay triple the price for an American brewer trying to emulate the original? Ommegang is still only about $8-9 for a 750. I stick in that range and go with brewers that I know have solid QA.

One thing that really bugs me on price is brewers that once had a beer in a 6 pack now put it in 4 packs and the price of the 4 pack is more than the 6'er used to be. One of my favorite beers is in this situation and I just buy a single here and there.

The market seems to be there, but how many overpriced small breweries can it bare? I guess we'll see.

Also you can't really compare homebrew to "craft beer", they are two completely different ideas & models.

 

[MaryB]

Every big city has seen a huge increase in the number of "Brew pubs" and it is even filtering out to rural areas. As mentioned competition is becoming fierce and I see that starting to drive prices down in the future. I will still keep on trying new beer styles to see what I like and don't like but I come back to what I call my house ale for an everyday beer. Strong bitter that tends on the sweet side, liked by the BMC crowd a lot but has enough complexity to my palate to still be interesting(coffee, chocolate...)for an everyday beer.

 

[brewerJase]

One thing I will say as a homebrewer in the process of going pro is I do agree some of the prices are becoming quite high. However the costs associated with doing business in this industry are not low at all, at least here in Ontario, Canada. If you factor in the materials, equipment, upkeep, utilities, taxes, fees, licencing, insurance, and everything else even at a somewhat above average price there is not as much left as you'd think.

Off topic, but as an ontario boy im wondering. Where you planing on opening? Always happy to hear of a new brewery.

 

[InLimbo]

I think you know you're in for a bad time when you walk into a prewpub and they have:

• 1 IPA
• 1 Pale Ale
• 1 Amber
• 1 Stout

When I see this list, it usually means I'm in for some mediocre beer. They don't have a brewer with the skills or interest to take a few chances, so they offer the 'basic' beer list.

Don't forget a requisite blonde ale. That's a dead giveaway!

 

[bonecitybrewco]

One thing I will say as a homebrewer in the process of going pro is I do agree some of the prices are becoming quite high. However the costs associated with doing business in this industry are not low at all, at least here in Ontario, Canada. If you factor in the materials, equipment, upkeep, utilities, taxes, fees, licencing, insurance, and everything else even at a somewhat above average price there is not as much left as you'd think.

Sleeping Giant in Thunder Bay in my mind is a great example of an excellent business model of a growing craft brewery. Their prices aren't that insane, they make dang good beer and they are expanding all the time. I do know that they invest most if not all of the profits back into the brewery though so silent investors who are in for the long term are a good idea.

 

[jmcquesten]

Don't forget a requisite blonde ale. That's a dead giveaway!

Don't forget the American wheat beer. They're usually over hopped and made with a house yeast. Very rarely is it ever a good German type hefeweizen. Sometimes it will be a "Belgian" wit beer that in no way resembles any kind of Belgian beer.

 

[bonecitybrewco]

Don't forget the American wheat beer. They're usually over hopped and made with a house yeast. Very rarely is it ever a good German type hefeweizen. Sometimes it will be a "Belgian" wit beer that in no way resembles any kind of Belgian beer.

So small house tap list = unskilled brewer? Good to know....

Just because a place doesn't have a whiskey barrel cherry gose or some god awful sour or just because their Hefe isn't specifically the way you want it doesn't mean it's bad beer. It just means you don't like it. The quote around here has always been "brew what you like" so then why would you expect a hefe to be exactly the way you like it when someone else brewed it?

It's this kind of hipster beer snob attitude that pisses me off about the craft beer scene.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I think you know you're in for a bad time when you walk into a prewpub and they have:

• 1 IPA
  
• 1 Pale Ale
  
• 1 Amber
  
• 1 Stout
  

When I see this list, it usually means I'm in for some mediocre beer. They don't have a brewer with the skills or interest to take a few chances, so they offer the 'basic' beer list. There's a place like this in Buffalo. Their beer menu never changes. They have 1-2 OK offerings, but everything else is just meh. I always get the same thing when I go there because it's 'safe'.

Most places are smart to have this list. It's what a lot of folks want to drink. I would guess that 95% of their customers aren't home brewers and probably know little to nothing about beer but they all know what an IPA, stout, etc, is. You also have to throw in a sour or funk of some type, too.

I've sat at the bar and heard time and again, "what IPA do you have?"

Most places I've been have these in tap, as well as a few other styles to round things out. If you don't offer what people want then chances are you won't have repeat customers.

 

[jmcquesten]

So small house tap list = unskilled brewer? Good to know....

Just because a place doesn't have a whiskey barrel cherry gose or some god awful sour or just because their Hefe isn't specifically the way you want it doesn't mean it's bad beer. It just means you don't like it. The quote around here has always been "brew what you like" so then why would you expect a hefe to be exactly the way you like it when someone else brewed it?

It's this kind of hipster beer snob attitude that pisses me off about the craft beer scene.

Haha. No, if the place can't make a GOOD pale ale, or a UNIQUE IPA, or even decent stout, I'd hate to try their interpretation of a "whiskey barrel cherry gose or some god awful sour". But, wheat beers aren't hard or expensive to make (well), so when I taste something that's a mash-up of a crappy ipa and a wheat beer, that's called a Hefeweizen on their board, I wouldn't expect most craft beer drinkers to appreciate it, let alone homebrewers (the ones that pay attention to style anyways). Do I expect it to be the same hefeweizen that I would brew? No. Do I expect it to be what they say it is? Yes. So if it's a beer labeled one thing, I expect it to be within the parameters of what they're claiming. It's probably "hipster" and "snob-ish" to expect a steak when I order one too right? So what if a ground beef shows up, I'm the hipster because the menu said it was steak and the cook wasn't skilled enough to know the difference?

As far as the "whiskey barrel cherry gose or some god awful sour" (THAT I NEVER MENTIONED), that's not what makes a GOOD brewery either. Let's face it, is it really that hard to make sour beer? No. But it's hard to make it a good one. What my point was, is that "... small house tap list" is common, and hard to distinguish from the other 10 breweries that just opened and have the same "... small house tap list" with nothing setting them apart. It's a little more hopeful when you see the odd "Helles lager" or "Olde Ale" or a "Belgian blonde/triple/double" or something other than the typical 5 or 6 "appeal to everyone" beers. The beers don't have to be extreme, but they could increase the exposure of some of the other lesser known styles, while maybe setting themselves apart from all the others. Or is VARIETY
"hipster" and "snob-ish" too?

It's this kind of ****** bag attitude from the homebrewers that pay no attention to style (and maybe fermentation temperature, yeast pitching rates, oxygen exposure, or any of the other details that it takes to make exceptional beer) that pisses off the ones that do and can judge a good beer from a bad one.

 

[bonecitybrewco]

Haha. No, if the place can't make a GOOD pale ale, or a UNIQUE IPA, or even decent stout, I'd hate to try their interpretation of a "whiskey barrel cherry gose or some god awful sour". But, wheat beers aren't hard or expensive to make (well), so when I taste something that's a mash-up of a crappy ipa and a wheat beer, that's called a Hefeweizen on their board, I wouldn't expect most craft beer drinkers to appreciate it, let alone homebrewers (the ones that pay attention to style anyways). Do I expect it to be the same hefeweizen that I would brew? No. Do I expect it to be what they say it is? Yes. So if it's a beer labeled one thing, I expect it to be within the parameters of what they're claiming. It's probably "hipster" and "snob-ish" to expect a steak when I order one too right? So what if a ground beef shows up, I'm the hipster because the menu said it was steak and the cook wasn't skilled enough to know the difference?

As far as the "whiskey barrel cherry gose or some god awful sour" (THAT I NEVER MENTIONED), that's not what makes a GOOD brewery either. Let's face it, is it really that hard to make sour beer? No. But it's hard to make it a good one. What my point was, is that "... small house tap list" is common, and hard to distinguish from the other 10 breweries that just opened and have the same "... small house tap list" with nothing setting them apart. It's a little more hopeful when you see the odd "Helles lager" or "Olde Ale" or a "Belgian blonde/triple/double" or something other than the typical 5 or 6 "appeal to everyone" beers. The beers don't have to be extreme, but they could increase the exposure of some of the other lesser known styles, while maybe setting themselves apart from all the others. Or is VARIETY
"hipster" and "snob-ish" too?

It's this kind of ****** bag attitude from the homebrewers that pay no attention to style (and maybe fermentation temperature, yeast pitching rates, oxygen exposure, or any of the other details that it takes to make exceptional beer) that pisses off the ones that do and can judge a good beer from a bad one.

Not sure where you're going with the ferm temp etc stuff. I'm a to style brewer however I'm not always holding within the bounds of a style. I will branch out. Don't get me wrong here. I'm all for variety. I just don't get what's wrong with a brewpub having a selection of their most popular stuff on tap. How does that make the brewer a bad brewer? I 100% get where you're coming from on a hyper hopped hefe using us-05 or something but here's the thing...new styles don't just come out of nowhere. It's mostly experimentation. If it's god awful then fine I'm with you. I just don't get why a small tap list with 5 popular brews on it is a bad thing. Personally, Id be relieved. Maybe I'm boring but sometimes a guy just wants a pale ale or Porter.

 

[beergutbrew]

I know this has probably been beat to hell and back as it is, but I had to post this as this is the first time I went into a local brewery to spend some hard earned cash to try something new and do my part to support the craft community and when I saw the price, I literally had to scrape my jaw off the floor and promptly leave..

One of the local breweries here in CLT NC (who is a well respected brewery that has been around for a while so they are good peeps from what I know and this is not a bash on them personally) has started to have what I like to call "price creep"...Their house IPA in 4 pack cans are now more expensive that heady topper is and some of their other house brews are even more expensive than that (we are talking right at $20 a 4 pack of 16oz cans here) and this is pricing that is being given at the brewery where I would think a bit of a price break might be given for the "walk-ins".

They have a imperial stout that was just released that I was very interested in trying until I walked in fully expecting and willing to drop $25 on a 4 pack only to see the sign read "$10 per can or $40 for a 4 pack".

SERIOUSLY?
$40 for 4-16oz cans?

I also realized as I looked over their "on-tap" board that their sessionable low ABV beers are now sitting at $6-$6.50 a pint which to me is what I would not expect to pay at the brewery itself and certainly not for a 4% Brown Ale.

Have we really gotten to this point with craft beer? As I walked out in total shock, one of the waiters asked "Not having one of our beers before you leave?" which I replied "Not at that price I aint.."

I really want to support the local folks and do every time I can (and pricing is reasonable) but lately it seems that attempting to do that is getting far to expensive to continue to do..

This is certainly not a rant against this brewery as I know they are selling this beer (and its getting snapped up), but these price hikes is something that in my mind will eventually cause a "souring" of the craft beer consumer base if this keeps going in this direction.

For me, its a disappointing trend as I absolutely love going to the local breweries and trying new beers, meeting new folks/fellow brewers knowing that my money is going back to those that were homebrewers that made it in the biz, but at some point, enough has to be enough.

Dude!! I can't like this post enough. Feeling the same pain in Huntsville, AL Lately I'm just staying home and homebrewing more.

 

[Bosh]

Well in general either extreme is bad. If every single beer on the list is experimental or full of adjuncts then you're in for some untested poorly balanced trend-chasing bull****. Beers whose recipes were chosen according to what would make the best puns can **** right the hell off.

If the list has NOTHING besides some combination of the half dozen most popular styles that tells me that the beer list was put together by a businessman rather than a brewer which means a lot of other decisions about how the beer is made were probably made by a businessman, to its detriment.

Basically if you ask a brewer "what are the five best beers you've ever made" you're almost never going to get 5 experiments brews or "one stout, one ipa, one wheat, one blonde." You'll get something like the list of the best five beers I've made which would be one pale ale, one festbier, one old ale, one porter and one saison. When I see a list that sounds like that I get the feeling that the beer list was put together by a brewer because those are the beers they like best not because someone told them to slap together an amber because every other brewpub has an amber.

 

[MaryB]

And 99% of their customers ARE NOT home brewers so they brew to the masses tastes, not ours!

Haha. No, if the place can't make a GOOD pale ale, or a UNIQUE IPA, or even decent stout, I'd hate to try their interpretation of a "whiskey barrel cherry gose or some god awful sour". But, wheat beers aren't hard or expensive to make (well), so when I taste something that's a mash-up of a crappy ipa and a wheat beer, that's called a Hefeweizen on their board, I wouldn't expect most craft beer drinkers to appreciate it, let alone homebrewers (the ones that pay attention to style anyways). Do I expect it to be the same hefeweizen that I would brew? No. Do I expect it to be what they say it is? Yes. So if it's a beer labeled one thing, I expect it to be within the parameters of what they're claiming. It's probably "hipster" and "snob-ish" to expect a steak when I order one too right? So what if a ground beef shows up, I'm the hipster because the menu said it was steak and the cook wasn't skilled enough to know the difference?

As far as the "whiskey barrel cherry gose or some god awful sour" (THAT I NEVER MENTIONED), that's not what makes a GOOD brewery either. Let's face it, is it really that hard to make sour beer? No. But it's hard to make it a good one. What my point was, is that "... small house tap list" is common, and hard to distinguish from the other 10 breweries that just opened and have the same "... small house tap list" with nothing setting them apart. It's a little more hopeful when you see the odd "Helles lager" or "Olde Ale" or a "Belgian blonde/triple/double" or something other than the typical 5 or 6 "appeal to everyone" beers. The beers don't have to be extreme, but they could increase the exposure of some of the other lesser known styles, while maybe setting themselves apart from all the others. Or is VARIETY
"hipster" and "snob-ish" too?

It's this kind of ****** bag attitude from the homebrewers that pay no attention to style (and maybe fermentation temperature, yeast pitching rates, oxygen exposure, or any of the other details that it takes to make exceptional beer) that pisses off the ones that do and can judge a good beer from a bad one.

 

[Bosh]

And 99% of their customers ARE NOT home brewers so they brew to the masses tastes, not ours!

Right, probably a good decision not to cater to me but I'm going to spend money on places that cater to me. Seeing either an adjunct smorgasborg or your bog standard brew pub list means someone's not trying to appeal to me. Well unless the prices are low, then I'll grab whichever style looks most idiot-proof to brew.

Whst doesn't mean I don't order a standard APA or stout a lot of the time. I just have a lot more faith in the quality of that APA or stout if I see something on the menu that's obviously only there because the brewer loves that beer.

 

[jmcquesten]

Right, probably a good decision not to cater to me but I'm going to spend money on places that cater to me. Seeing either an adjunct smorgasborg or your bog standard brew pub list means someone's not trying to appeal to me. Well unless the prices are low, then I'll grab whichever style looks most idiot-proof to brew.

Whst doesn't mean I don't order a standard APA or stout a lot of the time. I just have a lot more faith in the quality of that APA or stout if I see something on the menu that's obviously only there because the brewer loves that beer.

Agreed.

 

[jmcquesten]

Most places are smart to have this list. It's what a lot of folks want to drink. I would guess that 95% of their customers aren't home brewers and probably know little to nothing about beer but they all know what an IPA, stout, etc, is. You also have to throw in a sour or funk of some type, too.

I've sat at the bar and heard time and again, "what IPA do you have?"

Most places I've been have these in tap, as well as a few other styles to round things out. If you don't offer what people want then chances are you won't have repeat customers.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have some safe "go to" beers. They HAVE to have an IPA, they SHOULD have a Stout, etc. These beers need to be brewed well and really stand out to these customers over the same offerings at the other competing breweries in the area. And even though local breweries are often "friendly" and "helpful" to each other, they are still competing for customers. So they should be focusing on brewing the best beers and offering up a variety that sets them apart. Repeat customers can get bored just like someone that happens to homebrew.

 

[mj1angier]

And 99% of their customers ARE NOT home brewers so they brew to the masses tastes, not ours!

This.

A smart brew team ( and it needs to be a team- business guy, brew guy, bartender...) will put out 75-85% of the product that 99% will buy. Then toss some odd items in for the 1% that is only paying small part of the bills.

Look at it like this- if you brew your own, why would you spend $$ at a brewery when you can drink for pennies at home? The business guy knows this. He is looking get $ from folks that buying beer, not just tasting it.

Its kind of like the brewery tours. 99% of the folks on it don't care about the water profile that is going into the beer. They want to hear "Water and some other crap go in the big silver tank and beer comes out the other side. Ok let go taste some" That is a happy tour for most folks.

 

[Newsman]

I tasted the first coffee stout I've ever liked Friday night. It was by Wiseacre Brewing. Called "Gotta get up to get down." It wasn't a coffee bomb, but rather a very balanced beer with a coffee aftertaste. It wasn't bad either... it was about the cost of one of the mini-pitchers of BMC beer at the local watering hole where I got it. THAT is catering to the craft beer crowd.... not going for the jugular, but making a good profit off the average drinker. Granted, BMC was probably half that price, but then again, it may have been the same. Don't know. I don't drink BMC if I can possibly avoid it.

 

[b-boy]

So small house tap list = unskilled brewer? Good to know....

Just because a place doesn't have a whiskey barrel cherry gose or some god awful sour or just because their Hefe isn't specifically the way you want it doesn't mean it's bad beer. It just means you don't like it. The quote around here has always been "brew what you like" so then why would you expect a hefe to be exactly the way you like it when someone else brewed it?

It's this kind of hipster beer snob attitude that pisses me off about the craft beer scene.

Not saying that at all.

I'm saying that a lot of places want to be a brew pub, so they put together a list of 4 basic beers, hire someone who will make those basic beers, put together a food menu, and they are in business.

All the beers kinda taste the same, they are all mediocre at best, and the beer menu never varies.

That's less of a 'brew pub', and more of a 'restaurant that makes beer'. I'll pass.

 

[Bosh]

Not saying that at all.

I'm saying that a lot of places want to be a brew pub, so they put together a list of 4 basic beers, hire someone who will make those basic beers, put together a food menu, and they are in business.

All the beers kinda taste the same, they are all mediocre at best, and the beer menu never varies.

That's less of a 'brew pub', and more of a 'restaurant that makes beer'. I'll pass.

Right there are some brew pubs that exist because some guy loves brewing and wanted to make a brew pub. There are other brew pubs that exist because someone hired a brewer to make a couple beers within certain specifications. I'd rather go to the first kind of brewpub and if the beer list is one IPA, one amber, one stout and one wheat it's probably going to be the second kind. If I see a rye beer or something on the list I'll never order it (hate the flavor of rye in beer with a passion) but it'll make more hopeful that the beer I'm going to order is going to taste good since nobody puts rye in a beers unless a brewer who really loves that taste is calling the shots.

But then I come from a touristy area so my ability to detect cutesy "artisanal" bull**** made to make a quick buck off dumb tourists is finely honed.

 

[mongoose33]

Right there are some brew pubs that exist because some guy loves brewing and wanted to make a brew pub. There are other brew pubs that exist because someone hired a brewer to make a couple beers within certain specifications. I'd rather go to the first kind of brewpub and if the beer list is one IPA, one amber, one stout and one wheat it's probably going to be the second kind. If I see a rye beer or something on the list I'll never order it (hate the flavor of rye in beer with a passion) but it'll make more hopeful that the beer I'm going to order is going to taste good since nobody puts rye in a beers unless a brewer who really loves that taste is calling the shots.

But then I come from a touristy area so my ability to detect cutesy "artisanal" bull**** made to make a quick buck off dumb tourists is finely honed.

Guess I'll have to put my Funky Rye on the taplist if I ever open a brewpub. You won't try it, but it'll be a sign!

I've told people who try it they'll either like it or hate it--doesn't seem to be a lot of in-between. Interestingly, my 26-yo barber (female with 2 kids) insisted she doesn't like dark beer. I gave her a six-pack of six of my different brews to try. In an outcome nobody could have forecast, she liked my Funky Rye (which is dark b/c I put in 6 oz of Chocolate Wheat) better than anything else.

I'm constantly amazed at how different people like (and dislike) different styles of brew. I don't care for Belgians, which doesn't make me a bad guy, it just makes me a guy who dislikes Belgians.

People like what they like!

Here's what she liked: