Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

[MyNameIsPaul]

I've got my spunding setup complete now, woohoo! One snag: I installed the glycerine-filled gauge into a brass T, and on the gauge there is a rubber cap on top with a sticker next to it that says "After Installation Cut Top As Shown" It's basically a tiny rubber nipple that you snip off with scissors. So I snipped it, and now the dang thing leaks glycerine from there! What was the purpose of cutting that nip off, does anyone know? If this thing leaks and goes dry, will it be effected? Here is the gauge in question: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004IRCADG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[pickles]

A quick google search revealed this:IMPORTANT - All pressure gauges sealed for the purpose of liquid-filling have a device to assure atmospheric compensation. A sticker on the case shows how to cut off or pierce a hole into the rubber placed at the top of the gauge after installation. If the rubber device is not opened, in addition to false pressure reading, sever personal damage may be resulted.

I think it'll be fine; it must have been equalizing.

 

[MyNameIsPaul]

A quick google search revealed this:IMPORTANT - All pressure gauges sealed for the purpose of liquid-filling have a device to assure atmospheric compensation. A sticker on the case shows how to cut off or pierce a hole into the rubber placed at the top of the gauge after installation. If the rubber device is not opened, in addition to false pressure reading, sever personal damage may be resulted.

I think it'll be fine; it must have been equalizing.

Thanks Pickles, your GoogleFu was way better than mine this morning!

 

[WortMonger]

Any updates from people using the technique latey?

 

[GNBrews]

Would someone mind posting their transfer-to-serving keg technique? That's the biggest problem that I'm having. I didn't shorten my dip tube, and of course, yeast is coming over. Do any of you guys filter under counter-pressure? If so, is it still a complete mess (nucleation sites on the filter membrane and carbonated beer)?

 

[1MadScientist]

Would someone mind posting their transfer-to-serving keg technique? That's the biggest problem that I'm having. I didn't shorten my dip tube, and of course, yeast is coming over. Do any of you guys filter under counter-pressure? If so, is it still a complete mess (nucleation sites on the filter membrane and carbonated beer)?

Here are some quotes from WortMonger;
"I transfer to my serving keg at as close to 32*F as I can get, and at counter-pressure. I pressure up to 15 psi (15 psi = 103 KPa) in my target keg, then transfer with 15 psi (15 psi = 103 KPa) bottle gas out of the primary fermenter keg. With my spunding valve on my target keg set to 15 psi (15 psi = 103 KPa), I then up the bottle pressure a little to try and have a slow flow to the target keg. This insures I don't have a lot of sediment entering the target keg. I like the true counter-pressure transfer, and the spunding valve makes that easy. I like my target kept at the pressure I want it to end up at, and raise the pressure in the first keg as control. It [takes] about 10 minutes [to complete a 5 gallon (5 gal = 18.9 L) transfer].

I do have my target at a little lower than sending keg pressure to start the transfer, but with my spunding valve set to my wanted ending pressure. This insures I don't get a blast of CO2 into my sending keg before beer starts to flow into the target keg and stir up sediment (which happened while learning my system)."

Here is one of my pics showing the 'first runnings' of the yeast being pushed into an empty corny. Blue handle is the receiving corny.

Gently pushing first 'runnings' into 'catch can'. I don't want the yeast carried over into my serving keg.

3/2/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr

 

[GNBrews]

Thanks MadScientist I would never have thought about the problem of the receiving keg burping back into the primary and the calamity that would result. You have surely saved me some frustration, I'm sure!

I got to thinking a little more about "racking". A corny keg dip tube is approx the same diameter as an acrylic racking cane. I wonder if by simply utilizing one of the racking cane ends secured to the dip tube, the flow of beer might be less apt to disturb the yeast/trub cake at the bottom of the vessel? Simple idea, but if it helps in a normal racking transfer...

 

[WortMonger]

Thanks MadScientist I would never have thought about the problem of the receiving keg burping back into the primary and the calamity that would result. You have surely saved me some frustration, I'm sure!

I got to thinking a little more about "racking". A corny keg dip tube is approx the same diameter as an acrylic racking cane. I wonder if by simply utilizing one of the racking cane ends secured to the dip tube, the flow of beer might be less apt to disturb the yeast/trub cake at the bottom of the vessel? Simple idea, but if it helps in a normal racking transfer...

That would work swimmingly except for the little bit in the racking cane end piece. I wouldn't worry about that little bit of yeast at all. I thought of doing the same thing for a sanke but haven't found anything that would work yet.

 

[Borgstrom]

Any updates from people using the technique latey?

I'm enjoying the results of my first brew with the technique, which I have to say is my best batch yet out of 7-8 batches.

What I like / worked well:
- Fermenting in a sealed keg. Don't have to worry about infection, light, O2. Easy to pull samples.

- Fermenting in keg in a kegerator. Easy temperature control. Can cold-crash in fermentor.

- Keg spear removal tool made life much easier.

- DIY keg cleaner using 5 gallon bucket, submersible pump, PVC pipe and metal CIP ball

- Pressurized transfer to serving keg (for half the batch).

What I'm not so excited about / didn't work well:
- Fermenting under pressure. Not sure if it buys you anything.

- "Natural" carbonating in fermentor. It turns out my spunding valve has a slow leak somewhere; I think in the gauge itself. I ended up attaching the valve only to take readings in the end, but was never able to get up to proper carbonating pressure. I ended up force-carbing while cold crashing.

- Counter-pressure bottle filling for half the batch. It worked in the end, but what a pain and what a mess.

 

[truanthony]

I'm planning on brewing my 1st lager (I've got 8 brews under my belt and 2 of those we're with a spunding valve). My question, could someone post their fermentation and lagering schedule ie days, temperature, pressure. I know this has been posted/discussed before but I can't seem to find it. Thanks

 

[GNBrews]

That would work swimmingly except for the little bit in the racking cane end piece. I wouldn't worry about that little bit of yeast at all. I thought of doing the same thing for a sanke but haven't found anything that would work yet.

What's the OD on a sanke spear? I've seen "approx 1-inch", mentioned on a few home distiller forums where they were attempting to convert them to Liebig condensers. If you could friction-fit a copper reducer to the outside (or inside) of the spear, you could narrow it down to 1/2". They make replacement tips for that size OD racking cane.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/1-2-racking-tube-replacement-tip.html

Edit: With a little bit of ingenuity, you could probably make an oversize copper end cap work too. It would just be a matter of finding a couple pieces of something food-safe to position in a few points around the outside of the spear (to emulate the molded ridges in a normal one) to make the cap stay put.

 

[MyNameIsPaul]

I just transferred my first batch of beer using this whole pressurized fermentation thing. I'm not sold. It's more than that, I'm bowing at the feet of you pioneers who made this easy for us to follow and try! How friggin' easy was that! I made a Caramel Amber (from the popular recipe on here) and it turned out delicious, carbonated and I can't wait to unveil it at our annual chili cookoff in a few weeks. Transferring with the spunding valve on the target keg was truly set and forget, and so dang easy! I wish more people would do this, it's so fun and easy! Did I say easy yet?! Thanks for all the guidance, folks!

 

[ekjohns]

I just finished 2 beers with this, and I have a few commments.

1. Make sure to pressurize the serving keg. I forgot and my pumpkin ale exploded with foam about 1/3 the way full. The easiest thing is to do is turn the valve up really high then pressurize the serving keg. Then turn the valve down slowly until you start releasing pressure and then start transferring.

2. It is awesome to use as a blow off without having all these lines and pitchers to clean.

3. Most importantly the beer is AWESOME! Personally, when I have homebrew including mine or others it always tastes yeasty and somewhat green (even after months of cold crashing). With my beers made with pressure fermenting, they taste super clean and well aged. One was a APA that tastes fresh and clean. The other was a pumpkin ale that was clean, smooth, and did not have any off flavors from the large amounts of caramel malt.

I am going to use pressure fermenting from here on out. Glad I made 2 set ups!

 

[WortMonger]

I am still so happy everyone is having such luck with this technique. Keep the thread alive with updates. I love to hear first timers experiences.

 

[haeffnkr]

Hi,

Hi 3 questions/comments -

I have aquired a Miller Keg -
It has a screw in spear with NO snap in ring... it is AWESOME.
Looking to aquire one more soon.

I have the prefered mcmaster carr spunding valve, some where it has a SLOW leak. I dont think it is leaking in my hose connections at all...
I can not find any bubbles on it when I spray it.
Does anyone else have this issue? I think it is the valve itself.

Is there any chance for infection/etc with taking the sanke coupler/spunding valve off a keg and putting on another fermenting one...then putting it back on to transfer the first one? I would spray both the coupler and the connection with starsan when transferring.... thoughts?
Or Should I get another spunding valve?
But again... my valve leaks so it would deplete all the built up CO2 also

thanks Kevin

 

[1MadScientist]

I saw this on FB "Rogue Nation". Is this John Maier with a spunding valve?

 

[JuanMoore]

I saw this on FB "Rogue Nation". Is this John Maier with a spunding valve?

Probably. The vast majority of commercial fermenters have spunding valves on them. That's what they use in place of airlocks or blow off tubes.

 

[WortMonger]

I have the prefered mcmaster carr spunding valve, some where it has a SLOW leak. I dont think it is leaking in my hose connections at all...
I can not find any bubbles on it when I spray it.
Does anyone else have this issue? I think it is the valve itself.

You need to track down where the leak is. It has to be somewhere in the process. I assume you used soapy water or star-san in a spray bottle to check. I would keep the checking up because it has to be somewhere.

Is there any chance for infection/etc with taking the sanke coupler/spunding valve off a keg and putting on another fermenting one...then putting it back on to transfer the first one? I would spray both the coupler and the connection with starsan when transferring.... thoughts?
Or Should I get another spunding valve?
But again... my valve leaks so it would deplete all the built up CO2 also

thanks Kevin

I use mine with nothing more than a dunk in clean water and then a 30 second dunk in Star-San. You should be good to go, but not if you don't find out where that leak is first.

 

[WortMonger]

Probably. The vast majority of commercial fermenters have spunding valves on them. That's what they use in place of airlocks or blow off tubes.

Agreed, but we never used them in ours on our fermentors. I got the idea from reading about the pros though. Some brite-tanks have them because of the way they are plumbed to fill and then also to not over carbonate. I have heard that most uni-tanks aren't able to handle the excessive pressures of fermentation to carbonation, but they would definitely have been used in place of a blow off tube after the initial puke of the krausen.

 

[ekjohns]

a couple of questions about your leak.

1. is the valve on the right way? not sure which one you have but mine is directional and i initially had it backwards
2. have you tried using it with a pressurized keg around 20 psi to see if it holds. I found on some kegs the psi build up is so slow that it will never seal the lid and i wont hold pressure, keg lube fixes this.

 

[Setesh]

This is a really cool concept, I may have to give this a try. Also, it's nice to see a fellow Edmondite on the forums!

 

[WortMonger]

This is a really cool concept, I may have to give this a try. Also, it's nice to see a fellow Edmondite on the forums!

Great to meet you! I'm west Edmond.

 

[Setesh]

Great to meet you! I'm west Edmond.

Me too. If you ever want company on a brew day hit me up!

 

[MikeSpike]

Could you please post a link to the mcmaster carr spunding valve?

 

[1MadScientist]

Could you please post a link to the mcmaster carr spunding valve?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/sp...tion-corny-keg-245337/index2.html#post3220655

 

[-MG-]

Does anyone know where to get replacement 'teeth' for the push to connect fittings lamarguy uses?

I like having a thermowell to get actual temperatures. Speaking of that, what are the way those of you who use just the original spears are getting temp readings?

 

[GNBrews]

Does anyone know where to get replacement 'teeth' for the push to connect fittings lamarguy uses?

I like having a thermowell to get actual temperatures. Speaking of that, what are the way those of you who use just the original spears are getting temp readings?

I just use a normal self-adhesive liquid-crystal strip on the outside of the keg. The metal should conduct adequately enough to be the same temperature as the fermenting beer inside (within a degree or so).

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/dual-scale-liquid-thermometer.html

If you're feeding a temperature controller, simply hose-clamping (multiple clamps connected serially) or taping the RTD or thermocouple to the outside of the keg should work too.

 

[mattd2]

Agreed, but we never used them in ours on our fermentors. I got the idea from reading about the pros though. Some brite-tanks have them because of the way they are plumbed to fill and then also to not over carbonate. I have heard that most uni-tanks aren't able to handle the excessive pressures of fermentation to carbonation, but they would definitely have been used in place of a blow off tube after the initial puke of the krausen.

My understanding is that most Unitanks are not used to carbonate do to them being more usefull to drain them to the brite tank to get another new beer into them. The other issue is if they were to carbonate in the unitank it would need to be certified to ASME VIII and re-certified periodically (=cost). I would expect most small fermenters to be capable to handle carbonating pressure but the red-tape to get it certified is not worth it when the majority of customers don't want it.

 

[pjcampbell]

Can someone offer a guideline to when/how much to build pressure? Do you start it at 1psi and turn it up 1 psi a day? Do you let it go a few days before building it up beyond 1 psi?

Also, How full can you fill a corny with this method? 4.5 gallons out of 5 for example?

 

[-MG-]

Can someone offer a guideline to when/how much to build pressure? Do you start it at 1psi and turn it up 1 psi a day? Do you let it go a few days before building it up beyond 1 psi?

Also, How full can you fill a corny with this method? 4.5 gallons out of 5 for example?

There have been a few different methods. Some people do start around 1-2 PSI and ramp up 1 PSI each day for the first few days. I think its generally accepted that you want to keep active fermentation below 7 PSI.

I start typically at 3 PSI and leave it there and slowly ramp up to 7 PSI over probably a 4 day span.