Candi syrup experiment, trying to clone D2

[Nateo]

Also, after tasting my syrup J and D2 back to back, I'm amazed at how similar they are. There is definitely a dextrose taste to mine, so I'm hoping fermenting out the sugar will help compare the tastes better.

J vs D2 - J has more burnt sugar, D2 more chocolate, similar types/levels of caramel, similar dark fruit aftertaste.

But we'll have to wait until I can ferment them out side by side before I can draw definite comparisons.

 

[jpoder]

Awesome...sounds like progress to me. I still haven't made it to my LHBS yet to get supplies to try making some of your latest sugars, but will try this weekend.

Not sure about matching densities of very viscous syrups, but you could dilute both to a common, lesser density using a hydrometer? ...I suppose it will take quite a bit of water to get into the range a brewing hydrometer can measure, but that might also make it easier to pick out subtleties between the two for a straight sensory test. for using in a fermentation that might not work so well...

 

[maida7]

Forgive me if it's already been explained but what is the source of the dextrose? and what is the KHCO3?

 

[Nateo]

Dextrose is sold in home brew stores, sometimes called "corn sugar." KHCO3 is Potassium bicarbonate, also sold in brew stores.

 

[rjwhite41]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f73/pious-westvleteren-12-style-quad-multiple-147815/index13.html

There is some info here about a guy trying to make d2 for commercial purposes. Scroll near the bottom of the page and read the next page as well.

 

[Nateo]

Found an interesting quote, although I disagree about not being able to "approximate" D2 on the stovetop, a better word would be "replicate":
"Candi Syrups cannot be done with standard kitchen equipment. We tried dozens of permutations using stove top methods and simply could not approximate D2, (the most difficult by far). Without discussing the process in too much detail, (we've spent a fair amount of capital doing this), we use only 3 natural ingredients. We also went through quite a few Maillard catalysts all of which did "work" but the compounds produced were either a mismatch or in the wrong mole density, (my brother-in-law's words not mine). We found only one which provided the flavor profile that matched up and even exceeded our expectations. We believe this is what the Abbey's are using. "

I just wish this guy wasn't out to make money and would be more forthcoming about the process. Also, does it seem weird to try to make a company that sells a product another company already makes?

 

[rjwhite41]

I don't know if it's weird to make a product to compete with another company. According to my LHBS there is another company that has begun production on the product to compete with Dark Candi Inc. Besides, with how long HBS have been out of d2 Dark Candi isn't exactly keeping up with demand. By the way, I sent an email to them to ask when they will be releasing another batch of d2 and this was there response. I just received it today.

"Hi Robert,

We will have full stock shipping in a few days.

Best regards,

Brian Mercer | Dark Candi Inc.
http:www.darkcandi.com
Los Angeles, Ca. 90275
Office : 1.310.378.2300
Cel : 1.213.300.7002"

 

[Nateo]

I'm putting syrup H up against D2 right now in a test brew. 60% DME and 40% syrup, by weight. 3787 from a tripel's slurry. I forgot which one went in which growler, so it'll be a blind test.

 

[Houblon]

or you guys could just buy it...
http://www.brouwland.com/shop/catproducts.asp?cfid=4&id=346&pid=342

or another company
http://www.candico.be/index2.htm

other market names>
Primesuc - Siromix S75 - Siromix B12 - Belgogluc HM70

-
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Siromix+S75&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame]
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Siromix+B12&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame]
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Belgogluc+HM70&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame]

 

[OLDBREW]

For guys in south jersey/philly area in on the bulk group buys, I'm selling 3# quart jars of dark candi inc. D2 for 10 bucks including the ball jar.

It cost more to make in time and materials then it does to just buy it.

 

[jpoder]

It cost more to make in time and materials then it does to just buy it.

Meh...the same could be said for the beer one makes using the D2 sugar!

That being said I am one of the folks buying a quart from you on this group buy. (I'm setting up to have the mother load of doubles and quads ready for next winter!)

On a similar, but different note, someone in the "Pious" thread suggests that the dark candi syrup in Belgium is different/better than the Dark Candi stuff we get here. Anyone know if this is true or has tried any of the syrups from the vendors linked in that post?

 

[rjwhite41]

but different note, someone in the "Pious" thread suggests that the dark candi syrup in Belgium is different/better than the Dark Candi stuff we get here. Anyone know if this is true or has tried any of the syrups from the vendors linked in that post?

I don't know if it is true but those vendors are from Belgium. I'm not going to pay to have it shipped from Belgium and I doubt anyone else is. Supposedly, the candi syrup that we covet for beer is sold on store shelves in every grocer in Belgium. They eat it like a spread. There is a place in Portland that has it in stock for $9 a jug for anyone who is interested.

I apologize for helping this thread get off track. Please let us know how your continued experiments turn out.

 

[Douglefish]

What is the store name in Portland?

 

[rjwhite41]

What is the store name in Portland?

http://www.fhsteinbart.com

I have never ordered from them but I did send an email and they told me they had it in stock a couple of days ago.

 

[KYB]

I've only briefly looked into sugars, so correct me if I am wrong...

However, it seems you only have tried Dextrose/Corn Sugar/Glucose. Why don't you try Sucrose (which is glucose and fructose bonded)? From what I've been reading, even though cane sugar and beet sugar are just sucrose, they still behave differently when cooked. Plus, D2 is made from beet sugar. I'm going to try my hand at some experiments and see what I come up with. I want to make my own for my BDSA I just decided I want to brew very soon.

Edit: Just really read through Rex's thread. Nevermind.

 

[Nateo]

After a fast ferment, I racked off the yeast and sampled the beers. It fermented with any temp control, and it had a large amount of simple sugar, so it fermented pretty dry.

Impressions: Color and aroma were the same, as far as I could tell. One had a little bit thicker, slicker mouthfeel than the other, but the other had a bit better/more complex flavor. I'm still not sure which one was which. I really thought it'd be obvious in the finished beer, but it isn't. They're close enough that if they weren't back-to-back I doubt I could tell the difference, though I don't have a formally trained palate.

So, initial impression is encouraging. It'd take a larger scale comparison to draw a definite conclusion, but at this point, I'll say that I've been able to make a good, though not "exact," substitute for D2 syrup.

Let the nay-saying commence!

 

[GuldTuborg]

It would be tough for me to dispute your claim if I had, say, a couple of sample bottles. Hint, hint.

Good work, by the way!

 

[Crustovsky]

Great thread, and I appreciate all the work that has gone into this. Two questions come to my mind though (my apologies if I missed them being asked and answered earlier):

First, is there a chance that the differences in the water in Denver and whatever water they use to make d2 syrup are responsible for certain aspects of the experimental syrups? Would it maybe be wise to make up multiple versions of the same experimental syrup using different water sources (tap, distilled, filtered, etc) and see if anything notable changes between them?

Two, would it perhaps be easiest to split any given batch up part way through the cooking process to preserve certain aspects of the syrup while pushing the rest towards more cooked results? So perhaps at a certain point where desirable fruity aspects arise split however much of the batch off to cool down while continuing to cook the remaining syrup until the desired chocolatey notes are achieved, then mixing both parts back together?

Again, great thread. This has inspired me to start experimenting with making syrups myself.

 

[tchuklobrau]

Ok here it stupid ? of the week. How is everyone reaching these temps? i can only get my stove to heat water to 218. what kind of flame source do i need?

 

[rjwhite41]

Your stove will be fine it puts off much more heat than 200F. Water has a boiling point of 212 (which means I would recalibrate your thermometer because it doesn't get to 218) other solutions have various boiling points. You will need a candy thermometer for this though because your standard thermometer won't read high enough.

 

[Nateo]

tchuklobrau - As the percentage of sugar increases, the boiling temperature increases, so as the water evaporates, the boiling point will rise.

Crustovsky - I think with the amount of additives, between the DAP and the KHCO3, I think the water wouldn't make a big difference. FWIW, Denver water has a bicarbonate level of around 80, and is pretty soft. I think if you have really hard water, it might make sense to use distilled or RO water.

I've thought about just making several syrups and blending them together to get certain flavors. The batch sizes I've been experimenting are pretty small, so it'd be easy to scale them up or down. One that comes to mind is doing a mix of like 2:1 the H syrup, and one of the syrups with more vanilla flavors.

 

[Nateo]

I measured the gravities of the finished beers, and one was 1.007, and one was 1.011. The one with the higher gravity was actually the one that tasted more complex, and the lower gravity was the one that was slicker/thicker, which seems weird to me. I would guess my syrup was less fermentable than D2, in which case it would be the more complex, thinner one.

 

[Nateo]

Have a full size batch in the fermenter right now made with Syrup H. I'll let you all know how it turns out.

 

[Crustovsky]

Well there be a control with D2 as well, or are you just going with Syrup H? Also, will this be brewed traditionally with just a whole lot of base malt and the syrup, or does it include specialty malts as well? Very interested to hear about the results, keep us updated.

 

[Nateo]

I have a batch I brewed a few months ago with pale and D2, but also some turbinado. The new batch will be just pale and H. It won't exactly be apples to apples, but if I feel it's not a good comparison, I'll brew an identical batch with the D2 I have left to compare them.

 

[rjwhite41]

I appreciate all your efforts Nateo but I think you need to be more exact in order to get any usable information of this. On your last experiment you don't even know which beer had which sugar in it and you are using your assumptions to decide which is which. In this experiment you have the added turbinado in one which means it won't be a useful comparison either. Apples to apples, that's how you compare products. Not trying to be an a-hole but I just don't see how unstructured experiments are doing us any good.

 

[Nateo]

I appreciate all your efforts Nateo but I think you need to be more exact in order to get any usable information of this. On your last experiment you don't even know which beer had which sugar in it and you are using your assumptions to decide which is which. In this experiment you have the added turbinado in one which means it won't be a useful comparison either. Apples to apples, that's how you compare products. Not trying to be an a-hole but I just don't see how unstructured experiments are doing us any good.

Well, that's why I listed all my ingredients/process for the different syrups, so you can make them yourself, and decide for yourself. I never take anyone's word for anything, and I don't recommend you do, either.

 

[rjwhite41]

Well, that's why I listed all my ingredients/process for the different syrups, so you can make them yourself, and decide for yourself. I never take anyone's word for anything, and I don't recommend you do, either.

Well I guess you took that a little bit personal. The reason I am following is to see if you have success and then I will duplicate your experiments to see if I like the results. If you don't take a more scientific approach to this then I'm afraid the only useful info you have to contribute on the matter was on page 1. However, if you start eliminating all the variables then your info could be of use to all of us who are interested in this subject. You do as you want and I will follow this thread either way to see if I can gain any insight from it but I don't see how it helps anyone, including yourself, if you can't do something as simple as remembering which syrup you use in which beer. That's just as bad as not trying to compare in first place and claiming that your syrup is better and more complex then d2 even if you've never used it. Just sayin...

 

[Nateo]

I didn't really take it personally, but to address a couple points you've raised:

When my current batch top-crops I'll skim some yeast off and make a batch of the same beer with D2 instead. It won't be the same size batch, it won't be brewed on the same day as the first batch, with the same wort, or with the same ambient temperature, or pressure, or yeast pitching rate, or lunar cycle, or zodiac sign. I'm sure there are a hundred other variables that won't be the same, either.

Since I don't have a lab to work in, I can't really control all the variables. Where do you want to draw the line? How many variables are necessary/practical/preferable to control?

I'm not pretending I'll win "scientist of the year" with my experiments, but I do think it's informative if, in my first test batch, one was not obviously 'better' than the other. If I can't tell the difference between them, that tells me they're "close enough" for me.

Are they close enough for you? I can't answer that, and I don't particularly care. Only you can answer that. If you want to buy D2, you should buy D2. If you want to make your own, you should make your own.

Orangehero and ODaniel have suggested that pH may have an effect on the flavor compounds created. So I'd say if you want to strike out on your own, I'd experiment with adding varied amounts of KHCO3 before the DAP to see what happens. I had some paid days off a few weeks ago when I did most of my experiments, and I don't know when I'll have time to try some more. But that's where I'd go next.

 

[camiller]

So I decided to add some baking soda to my syrup.

Added 1/8 tsp. baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to 1/4 cup of a mix of all the previous syrups I have made. It turned into about 3/4 cup of delicious caramel mousse. ...

Had you also been cooking raw peanuts in your syrup you would have found yourself getting close to peanut brittle. Also (at least with peanut brittle) the longer you stir after adding the baking soda the darker it gets, and really quickly also.