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Candi syrup experiment, trying to clone D2

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Nateo

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Here is my D2 substitute recipe:

PPG: 1.046
(PPG estimate based on total batch weight of 515grams ~ 18.15oz)
SRM: ~40

3oz Dextrose (corn sugar)
13oz Sucrose (table sugar)
1c H2O
Bring to boil
Add 1/2tsp DAP
Add 1/2tsp KHCO3
Stir well to dissolve

Heat to 320*
Add 1/2c H2O
Stir well (be careful)

Heat to 310*
Add 1/2c H2O
Stir well
Pour in mason jar

It seems that the total amounts of DAP and of KHCO3 aren't terribly important. The interactions between them being too complex for me to fully understand, but even large changes in DAP and KHCO3 amounts produce only minor changes in the flavor profile. It seems that more dextrose will yield a darker/roastier product, and more sucrose will yield a sweeter, fruitier product. Temp also plays a role, but is less important than the dextrose/sucrose ratio.

Syrup H doesn't, by itself, taste as close to D2 as the above recipe, but it does produce a beer that's as good or better than any beer I've made with D2. I plan on doing more intensive testing on that in the future.

Credit to SnickASaurusRex, Randy Mosher, and Stan Hieronymus. I found SnickaSaurusRex's thread about making candi syrup. I based my experiments on his Sugar #5.

Hypothesis: The low caramelization temperature of fructose in table sugar was causing the syrup to caramelize excessively before there were sufficient Maillard reactions to get the dark chocolate flavors of the D2 syrup.

My recipes were made at 5280ft, so you may need to adjust temperatures for your elevation.

Here are the experiments I did to arrive at my finished recipe:

Round 1

Syrup A:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 260*
Added 1/4c H2O
Heated mixture to 250*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Vanilla, caramel, dark cherries, raisins, plums

Syrup B:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 280*
Added 1/4c H2O
Heated mixture to 270*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Dark fruit, light chocolate, toasted notes developing

Syrup C:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/4c H2O
Heated mixture to 290*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Toasted marshmallows, light toffee flavor, stronger chocolate flavor than B, dark fruit

Syrup D:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/4c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: This batch started smoking once it reached 320*. Very bitter/acrid, burnt, cocoa, light dark fruit flavors.

Conclusions: Syrup A is very similar to the "Dark Candi D" syrup. Syrup D is the closest I have come to replicating the chocolate flavors of the D2 candi syrup, although it had an unpleasant acrid/burnt character D2 doesn't have. A mixture of D and C toned down the acridness and brought it a lot closer to D2, but with a fruitiness D2 lacks. A mix of all four syrups had a wonderfully complex flavor unlike anything I've had before.

Round 2

Syrup E:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Somewhere between C and D, closer to D but still acrid

Syrup F:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/2tsp CaCO3

Notes: Acridness subdued somewhat, allowing fuller chocolate flavors to come through. Very chalky, though.

Syrup G:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 240*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 240*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 240*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 240*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Lots of soft caramel, light vanilla, some lighter fruit flavors, like white grapes.

Round 3

Syrup H:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3

Notes: Burnt sugar, cocoa powder, dark fruit, bitter, complex caramel

Syrup I:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3

Notes: Burnt sugar, complex caramel, light cocoa powder, light dark fruit, light bitter

Syrup J:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp KHCO3

Notes: Same as I, but slightly less bitter

Syrup K:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated to 230*
Added 1/8c H2O

Notes: Cocoa, burnt sugar, light caramel, light dark fruit, 'medium' bitter

Round 4

Syrup L:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3

Notes: No appreciable difference between this syrup and syrup J.

Syrup M:
2oz Dextrose, 2oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/6tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Notes: Starting smoking heavily at end of second heating. Similar taste to L, but with more dark fruit flavor, and less caramel flavor, slightly sweet with little bitterness, slight chalkiness.

Conclusions: The sucrose/dextrose blend led to an apparent decrease in complex caramel flavors, and increase in fruity flavors. I would say the most progress I've made so far is by alkalizing the finished product. Reducing acidity helped some of the subtler flavors to come through. Too much KHCO3 leads to an unpleasant flavor similar to chalk.

Round 5

Syrup N:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/12tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 280*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/6tsp KHCO3

Notes: Caramel, smooth and sweet. Some vanilla, faint cocoa on the finish.

Syrup O:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/12tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 260*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 280*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 300*
Added 1/6tsp KHCO3

Notes: Like N, without cocoa, and a little bit more vanilla.

Conclusion: It appears that the amount of DAP has more influence over the darkest flavors, like the burnt sugar and cocoa, than does temperature.

After sitting around for a few days, I got a small amount of "crystallization" from syrup N, and syrup O turned into a very thick paste. The other syrups I've made have remained liquid with no evidence of crystallization/precipitation.

Round 6

Syrup P:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Like K, burnt sugar flavor, not much complexity.

Syrup Q:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Heated mixture to 330*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Very burnt flavor, unpalatable.

Conclusion: 330* is too hot for the syrup solution, 1/4tsp is too much for the DAP,

Round 7:
KHCO3 added at same time as DAP

Syrup R:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Like H, but a little softer/fuller

Syrup S:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: More bitter than R

Syrup T:
4oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Very close in flavor to D2, though not quite dark enough, and a little too sweet

Syrup U:
4oz Dextrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Too bitter

Syrup V:
2oz Dextrose, 2oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Too bitter

Syrup W:
4oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/4tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/4tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Similar to T, but too butterscotchy

Syrup X:
1oz Dextrose 3oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Very close to D2, but slightly too bitter/roasted

Syrup Y:
1.33oz Dextrose, 2.66oz Sucrose
1/4c H2O
Added 1/8tsp DAP, added @ 210*
Added 1/8tsp KHCO3
Heated mixture to 320*
Added 1/8c H2O
Heated mixture to 310*
Added 1/4c H2O

Notes: Slightly too bitter

Conclusion: X and T are both very similar to D2, with the T being a little too light and X being a little too dark. A mixture of 3 parts X to 1 part T yielded a syrup almost indistinguishable from D2, with the D2 tasting a little bit stronger, but my syrups are slightly thinner. My next step is to make the following full-size batch, which should approximate the mixed syrups.
 

Houblon

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I'll tell ya that its not possible on the homebrewer scale but you'll still make good syrup just not D2.

Do they boil in low pressure or high pressure? just some of the possible methods that are done in commercial scale.
 

Barc

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Lower pressure would mean lower boiling points. The reverse is also true and is how a pressure cooker works. If they increase the boiling temp, they may be able to keep the fluid liquid longer but it would still smoke. If they decrease the boiling point, they may be able to increase the maillard reactions thereby creating flavors normally associated with higher temps but at a lower temps. There are ways to boil at lower pressures at home. It may be worth going to "the Google" to find out.

Good luck.
 

jpoder

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thanks for the additional experiments! good stuff! As you know, I am on this quest too. I've been thinking about pressure cookers or even trying it in the oven. What if I can hold at 300 for 30 minutes? thoughts? Right now I'm sort of shooting in the dark based on other's knowledge

Does anyone have any good science or cooking references that might shed some light? ...or allow me to experiment in more focused ways?

seems like this should not be an impossible task...just a matter of cracking the code...
 

GilaMinumBeer

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Maybe even consider a different method for inversion? Phosphoric Acid? Citric?

There is another oddball ingredient listed in Moshers book to start the conversion. I forget what it was. Used for leavening, I think. Hard to find but I was able to find it at a Greek specialty grocer. Just can't recall what it was.

I have done some syrups using phosphoric acid as the catalyst to the inversion and they all came out perfectly.
 
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Nateo

Nateo

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Houblon: You could say the same thing about cloning beers, yet people still try to do it. Is it a fool's errand? Maybe. But I bet I can come up with something interesting.

jpoder: The issue you'll run into is that as the sugar solution concentrates (water evaporates) the temperature of the mixture will rise. The easiest way to keep it at 300 would be to add a tbsp of water when the temp starts rising. But it would take a lot of tablespoons.

Gila: In this particular case, I was using dextrose, which is D-glucose. Glucose is a monosaccharide, so there's nothing to invert. Afaik you can only "invert" poly-or-disaccharides. Also, the ingredient in Mosher's book is just a different source for nitrogen. It's a leavening source for bread, but I'm only interested in the nitrogen from the ammonia.
 

GilaMinumBeer

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Gila: In this particular case, I was using dextrose, which is D-glucose. Glucose is a monosaccharide, so there's nothing to invert. Afaik you can only "invert" poly-or-disaccharides. Also, the ingredient in Mosher's book is just a different source for nitrogen. It's a leavening source for bread, but I'm only interested in the nitrogen from the ammonia.
Whoops. Missed the Dextrose point. despite the fact that it's everywher in your OP. :eek:
 
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Nateo

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Castle - Some sources say it's just repeated heating and cooling of plain sugar (that guy from dark candi, for one), some other sources say it's a byproduct of making other sugar products. Ammonia is used in one form of sugar refining.

So, if you're the dark candi guy, and you have a sugary syrup with ammonia in it that's a byproduct of making other sugar products, and you heat and cool that sugar/ammonia mixture, you COULD say that you don't add anything extra to the syrup. It may not be intellectually honest, but it wouldn't be technically wrong.

Caramelized sugar is no longer sugar. It's not sweet and it doesn't do anything for you except change the color. To make a syrup that is highly fermentable, you want to keep as much sugar/product as possible. Any product converted to caramel is money lost.

So, I'm assuming that the laws of science apply equally in Belgium as they do here in Denver. I'm also assuming they don't have any wizards working at confectionery plants in Belgium. So there is no magic involved. I'm assuming that you cannot make a highly fermentable, very dark syrup from only sucrose and heat. I assume that the candy makers know a lot more about candy making than I do, and they have access to tools I don't have access to.

But I believe I can make something that comes very close to the commercial products I can buy, much in the same way that everyone who brews "clone" beers believes, that with some effort, they can create something very close to what commercial breweries produce. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and you can use a completely different process to arrive at the same/similar results.

So even if D2 really is "just sugar + heat" I know for a fact that I cannot, with my equipment, replicate that flavor. But I can get close using other means.
 

jpoder

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Isn't D2 'allegedly' made with just beet sugar and heat? No acid/nitrogen, just sucrose and heat.
This has been debated ad nauseum in the original candi sugar thread started by SnickASaurusRex HERE

Basically, the Dark Candi Inc website says in the tech specs for D2 that it is produced by repeated heating and cooling of beet sugar, but does not elaborate on the process. In the U.S. at least, a caramel coloring (like in cola) which is similar to what we are doing, can be produced through a number of different processes including using ammonia and although technically are referred to by different classes of caramel (I - IV), on consumer packaging can all be called "natural coloring". See the Wikipedia entry HERE Using a reactant (ammonia from Di-Ammoniam Phosphate (DAP) in our case) is merely used to speed up the process by donating a Nitrogen atom. It is not really an ingredient, so would not really have to be listed by anyone.

Some of the other sugars listed on the Dark Candi website are described as "produced as a byproduct of the sugar refining process", but the D2 explicitly does not say this.
 

jpoder

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I'm also assuming they don't have any wizards working at confectionery plants in Belgium. So there is no magic involved.
I don't know...after trying to produce D2 unsuccessfully a number of times, I'm beginning to think they are at least employing Oompa-Loompas in Belgium!

Perhaps if we could capture one...
 

Houblon

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I'm just sayin alot of people have tried for many yrs and none have done the clone, simply some things just don't work on the homebrewers scale. Hey if you have a full lab...

Also said you'll still have good syrup, I would add some vanilla just as your cooling it down, maybe cinnamon.:cross:
 

OLDBREW

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I think on a smaller scale, it would cost much more in time, labor, and ingredients, then it would by just buying the darkcandi Inc. D2 syrup.
 

OLDBREW

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What is homebrewing, if not spending lots of time and energy making something you can buy at the store?
Very true but the candi syrup doesn't give you a buzz on it's own!!:D:D:tank:
 

Tall_Yotie

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As far as the dextrose goes, could I just use corn syrup, or do I need to go down the the LHBS to pick up the right stuff? Bit of a schlep to get something that costs a couple bucks.
 

orangehero

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Another experimenter.

On my next attempt I will use dextrose, 1% w/w di-ammonium phosphate, and try to keep it at 270F for varying lengths of time (by continually adding small amounts of water).

I think I have been using too much DAP as my syrups have been turning out a bit too tangy.

At the moment I'm eating D2 syrup by the spoonful.
 
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Nateo

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Orangehero, are you Kent? I actually came across those comments the other day, and that got me thinking on the current track I'm heading down. I have a theory about the tanginess of most of the homemade dark syrups. But dinner is ready, so I'll elaborate on that later.
 

KYB

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Interested in this. I got 2lbs of D2 as a control, but want to make my own syrup equally as good, if not better. I like my recipes to be all my concoction, not tossing in something someone else made. Just my preference. I'd like to know any other info/experiments you find out about or do yourself.
 
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Nateo

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So, the "tanginess" issue got me thinking about dark grains. Roasted barley tastes pretty awful by itself, and it's very acidic. I remembered that Dutch cocoa is alkalized to soften the flavor and make it more palatable, so I tried to use CaCO3 to alkalize syrup F. It tasted a lot better, but very chalky.

After a quick google search, and a trip to the brew store, I decided to try KHCO3, which is used to alkalize wine. H, I, and J are all a lot more palatable than any of the other dark syrups I've made so far. J actually tastes pretty good.

I don't have any D2 syrup to compare it to, since there seems to be some sort of distribution issue right now (which is mostly why I'm on this quest in the first place). So if anyone out there could make some of my syrup, and compare, I'd be grateful. Also, if you have D2 and a pH meter, I'd be interested to know how acidic it is.
 

orangehero

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Not Kent, just trying to be more quantitative.

I suspect that the D2 syrup is not a single process product. Perhaps they make a highly converted syrup, extremely dark, complex, and no longer sweet, and then mix that with something still sweet and fermentable, like the light syrup, until they get the correct profile.

I don't like the dextrose I have, it leaves an aftertaste that might be from how it was stored.

I kept it at 130C (266F) for 15 minutes (adding a tablespoon of water knocked the temperature down 1-2C), and it lost most of the sweetness. Flavor notes still unlike D2.

You could also neutralize with baking soda or sodium carbonate.
 

orangehero

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So I decided to add some baking soda to my syrup.

Added 1/8 tsp. baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to 1/4 cup of a mix of all the previous syrups I have made. It turned into about 3/4 cup of delicious caramel mousse. Now that the foam has subsided, the flavor is definitely more reminiscent of the D2 syrup. Still not the same flavor notes, but a similar softness and not as tangy as before.

Another experiment could be to add the neutralizing agent along with the DAP. It may well be that pH has a critical role in the types of flavors developed during the reaction.
 
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Nateo

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As far as the dextrose goes, could I just use corn syrup, or do I need to go down the the LHBS to pick up the right stuff? Bit of a schlep to get something that costs a couple bucks.
I believe most commercial corn syrup has a mix of fructose and glucose, and some, like Karo, have some dextrin too, IIRC. Although it should be pretty high in glucose, so it might be worth a shot.
 
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Nateo

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Does anyone have any ideas on how to match the density of my syrups to D2?

Thanks to the generosity of jpoder, I now have 1 lb. of D2 to compare my new syrups to. My plan is to make a liter of wort, split it 4 ways, and add a bit of syrup to each, and ferment them. I was planning on adding the syrup by weight, but I'm not sure if the different concentration of sugar would throw that off, and if it does, if that really matters.
 
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Nateo

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Also, after tasting my syrup J and D2 back to back, I'm amazed at how similar they are. There is definitely a dextrose taste to mine, so I'm hoping fermenting out the sugar will help compare the tastes better.

J vs D2 - J has more burnt sugar, D2 more chocolate, similar types/levels of caramel, similar dark fruit aftertaste.

But we'll have to wait until I can ferment them out side by side before I can draw definite comparisons.
 

jpoder

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Awesome...sounds like progress to me. I still haven't made it to my LHBS yet to get supplies to try making some of your latest sugars, but will try this weekend.

Not sure about matching densities of very viscous syrups, but you could dilute both to a common, lesser density using a hydrometer? ...I suppose it will take quite a bit of water to get into the range a brewing hydrometer can measure, but that might also make it easier to pick out subtleties between the two for a straight sensory test. for using in a fermentation that might not work so well...
 

maida7

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Forgive me if it's already been explained but what is the source of the dextrose? and what is the KHCO3?
 
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Nateo

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Dextrose is sold in home brew stores, sometimes called "corn sugar." KHCO3 is Potassium bicarbonate, also sold in brew stores.
 
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Nateo

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Found an interesting quote, although I disagree about not being able to "approximate" D2 on the stovetop, a better word would be "replicate":
"Candi Syrups cannot be done with standard kitchen equipment. We tried dozens of permutations using stove top methods and simply could not approximate D2, (the most difficult by far). Without discussing the process in too much detail, (we've spent a fair amount of capital doing this), we use only 3 natural ingredients. We also went through quite a few Maillard catalysts all of which did "work" but the compounds produced were either a mismatch or in the wrong mole density, (my brother-in-law's words not mine). We found only one which provided the flavor profile that matched up and even exceeded our expectations. We believe this is what the Abbey's are using. "

I just wish this guy wasn't out to make money and would be more forthcoming about the process. Also, does it seem weird to try to make a company that sells a product another company already makes?
 

rjwhite41

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I don't know if it's weird to make a product to compete with another company. According to my LHBS there is another company that has begun production on the product to compete with Dark Candi Inc. Besides, with how long HBS have been out of d2 Dark Candi isn't exactly keeping up with demand. By the way, I sent an email to them to ask when they will be releasing another batch of d2 and this was there response. I just received it today.

"Hi Robert,

We will have full stock shipping in a few days.

Best regards,

Brian Mercer | Dark Candi Inc.
http:www.darkcandi.com
Los Angeles, Ca. 90275
Office : 1.310.378.2300
Cel : 1.213.300.7002"
 
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Nateo

Nateo

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I'm putting syrup H up against D2 right now in a test brew. 60% DME and 40% syrup, by weight. 3787 from a tripel's slurry. I forgot which one went in which growler, so it'll be a blind test.
 

Houblon

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or you guys could just buy it...
http://www.brouwland.com/shop/catproducts.asp?cfid=4&id=346&pid=342

or another company
http://www.candico.be/index2.htm

other market names>
Primesuc - Siromix S75 - Siromix B12 - Belgogluc HM70

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[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Siromix+S75&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame]
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Siromix+B12&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame]
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Belgogluc+HM70&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame]
 

OLDBREW

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For guys in south jersey/philly area in on the bulk group buys, I'm selling 3# quart jars of dark candi inc. D2 for 10 bucks including the ball jar.

It cost more to make in time and materials then it does to just buy it.
 
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