Can you stop yeast before it gets to dry and if so how?

[tlc]

Has anyone tried to do pasteurizing with a single propane burner. It seems to me if you do get a bottle bomb then it's outside on the deck and not on the stove so easier clean up and wife not mad at you. I think I might try this method since you could heat the water to desired temp and then shut off the burner. do you see anything wrong with this method...thanks

 

[bmd2k1]

I am a noob and just received my brew kit and going to make some apple cider. I like my cider sweet and after going to the brew shop and reading on the internet I'm more confused than ever so I thought I'd try a forum. I have never been in a forum before so please forgive me if I mess up on how to post and reply in advance. My first question is on the yeast. The shop gave me red star cote des blanc but from what I read is it takes it dry and I like it sweet so do I use this yeast or get a different one. They said all yeasts will make it dry so I'll need to stop the fermentation before it gets to 1.000. Is there a special spot to post this question or is this the one.
Thanks for your help...tlc

IF you keep the cider refrigerated 100% of the time post fermentation - it's possible & I do it All the time as part of my standard protocol

Using D47 yeast - I start with a mix of FAJC & 100% AJ -- SG of 1.08 and "stop" it around FG 1.03 (ABV ~ 6.75%) by tossing in fridge to cold crash for a few days -- then racking back into 1gal containers. I tend to bottle carb up a few large swing-top bottles by filling and leaving em out at room temp for 4-5days - then tossing em back in the fridge. The 1gal containers tend to get a bit of "fizz" over time - but stay just the right sweetness for me.

Cheers and good luck!

 

[Rick Stephens]

Has anyone tried to do pasteurizing with a single propane burner. It seems to me if you do get a bottle bomb then it's outside on the deck and not on the stove so easier clean up and wife not mad at you. I think I might try this method since you could heat the water to desired temp and then shut off the burner. do you see anything wrong with this method...thanks

How I do it. Although I use two burners. Heat water bath canner to 140ƒ, turn off burner and stick 7 or 8 battles in to warm. Heat pressure canner with no gauge or pressure weight up to 175ish ƒ and turn off. Move bottle from warm to hot water and leave for 10 minutes. Pull finished bottle out of pot, turn stove back on for the few minutes a big burner takes to get back to 175 and move bottles over from warm water. Crank up the burner on the warm water and a few minutes later it is to 140 again and start the cycle over.

Those Camp Chef stoves run around a $100 and are worth weight in gold for canning, and now pasteurizing.

 

[tlc]

Thanks for the reply and pic to show it. I will be getting that set up to use in the garage

 

[tlc]

My cider has been at a 1.004 for a couple of days now so if it is still there tomorrow I plan on racking to secondary and adding a little cinnamon and nutmeg. I started at a 1.080 so what would that make my alcohol level at and can someone please show how to do the math so i can figure it out in the future. One more quick question is do I fill the carboy with my left over apple juice to bet it within 2" of the neck or make up some FAJC from a can.
Thanks

 

[bleme]

Another option is to sweeten with unfermentables, like lactose, stevia, monk fruit extract, tagatose, xylitol, erythritol, Splenda, etc.

1.080-1.004=.076*131=9.96% ABV

 

[tlc]

Thanks for the help with the math. I see where the .076 comes from so what is the 131 multiplier

 

[bleme]

Thanks for the help with the math. I see where the .076 comes from so what is the 131 multiplier

131 never changes. Just multiply it by the gravity to convert to ABV
(131.25 is more accurate but the difference is negligible)

 

[tlc]

It was at a 1.000 so I just racked 5 gallons to secondary and added 3 cinnamon sticks and 2 tsp vanilla. I will let it clarify for a couple of weeks and hopefully be ready to bottle. Do I need to take any more hydrometer readings or just go by taste now. I'm going to pasteurize so I'm trying to stay one step a head as this is my first time making cider. I tasted it and it was dry and bitter as expected so what will my next step be to get it sweet and carbonated. You guys have been a wealth of knowledge and Thanks for everyones input.

 

[Rick Stephens]

I have 5 gallons doing secondary just like that - I used cinnamon syrup and tincture that I made along with nutmeg and allspice and a separate ginger syrup. Been sitting a couple months. I plan on adding 5 cans of AJC, adjusting taste from there and then prime with corn sugar so that the final result is the same as my final taste right before bottling - with the addition of carbing. Carbonation using this method is the new part for me, so I am really interested in how that comes out. Note - this 5 gal batch at end of primary was rocket fuel. I used 1116 champagne yeast and it went to .998. No flavors at all but the high octane - right stuff for Yeager, RIP.

I have more options to add flavors. Have some cinnamon extract and will also consider malic acid additions should it need a bit of sharpness.

 

[tlc]

is it roughly 1 can of AJC per gallon for flavoring and then you add the corn sugar for priming before pasteurizing when it gets to correct hardness of the test bottle. Does the sugar from the AJC matter in calculation since you are pasteurizing right after you get the correct flavor. I'm thinking on using 2 bottles incase I want a little more carbonation after I test the 1st one and I can always drink it .

 

[Chalkyt]

When you are ready to bottle and you want a bit of sweetness and carbonation, I would go through the following steps...
1. Bring it up to the flavour/sweetness that you want by adding sugar, juice, AJC or even non fermentable sweetener like Xylitol etc.

2. Measure the SG at that point, then add extra sugar etc for potential carbonation, say enough to increase SG by 0.005 or as a rule of thumb, two tsp of sugar per litre, preferably as a sugar syrup so that it can mix evenly with the cider.

3. Bottle, then pasteurise to stop carbonation in the bottle at whatever pasteurisation level you want (i.e. use the soft drink bottle squeeze method, pressure gauge, estimate based on the rate of fermentation, or whatever). Ideally pasteurisation should take place when the extra carbonation sugar has been consumed and the SG has dropped back to your desired flavour/sweetness profile.

It won't hurt to leave some of your cider in secondary while you do this with a smaller batch just to see if it works out O.K. (unless you want it for Xmas in which case dive in with the lot!)

 

[Rick Stephens]

With Chalkyt here. That is pretty much just what I described. So I hit the taste I want with sugars, acids, AJC, straight juice, whatever, to taste. Then I add corn sugar for prime to make the carbonation. The hope is the end product tastes the same as what I ended up with before adding the prime.

I use low end 1 ounce of sugar per gallon for light carbonation to 1.5 ounce of sugar per gallon for a little heavier.

I never open the plastic coke bottle at all, after using it as a test I refrigerate to stop the yeasties and then drink later. The plastic bottle is purely a gauge for what pressures are by feel. Once the plastic starts getting hard, I start opening one of the bottle to see how it goes. I don't always taste that - you can tell just by how it hisses at you on open, and whether any of the carbonation makes any foam on top. If you get a bit of foam on top when you open, that is plenty! Mostly I just pop a freshly sanitized cap right back on the bottle and stick it back with the batch. This doesn't seem to effect it at all.

 

[tlc]

When I'm ready to get the taste do I put it in the bottling bucket and then add the ajc and after I get the taste I want then I add the priming sugar and immediately bottle it or do you flavor while in carboy. I'm thinking 2 weeks in carboy to help clear out and then bottle so I can have some ready by news years eve party at my house.

 

[tlc]

as far as pasteurizing have either one of you used the cooler method. I've been doing some reading on it and seems like it works pretty good and you can do more bottles at a time and in case you did get a bottle bomb it would be contained in the cooler...thoughts???. You guys have been a wealth of information...I feel like I know you.

 

[Rick Stephens]

When I'm ready to get the taste do I put it in the bottling bucket and then add the ajc and after I get the taste I want then I add the priming sugar and immediately bottle it.

Zactly

 

[tlc]

I like a good carbonation so should i plan on 1.5 oz per gallon and does the amt have to be perfect say if I have a little less than 5 gallons do I need to know it exactly or just call it 5 gallons. I will be testing with bottle and then pasteurizing.

 

[Chalkyt]

Jim Rausch's cooler method would be just fine. However (as always) there are a couple of things to think about...

I think that you have read or downloaded the PDF "Cider Heat Pasteurising and Carbonation", if not see my post 25 Sept. Figure 6 in that PDF is basically the Cooler Method. You will see that by pre heating the bottles, you may reach a pasteurisation temperature over 70C and in fact in Fig 6, the method generated over 600PUs. So, pre heating isn't really needed as long as the desired bottle temperature is achieved, or you work with a low er than 80C bath temperature.

With higher pasteurisation temperature there may be two adverse side effects. Firstly, higher temperature means higher bottle pressure, and secondly too high a temperature can "cook" the cider.

The way that the Cooler Method and Pappers approaches work is that the volume of bottles and their contents cool down the bath temperature as it heats up the bottles, until some equilibrium temperature is reached (ideally around 70C or less). This all depends on how hot the bath is and how much hot water, and how cool the bottles are and how many. i.e. there are a few variables to manage.

In my test case, a ratio of 7:1 worked well (15 litres of 80C water and 2 litres of bottles and cider at 20C resulted in an equilibrium temperature of about 70C)

Have a look at a post by Jaypkk (3 Dec). There is a summary and a link to a research paper from Washington State University which demonstrates that pasteurisation of cider can be achieved at temperatures between 60C and 65C with short time exposure. Certainly it supports the idea that 30PUs or even less is fine for cider, and at the lower temperature, bottle pressure is unlikely to exceed 100 psi so the chance of bottle bombs is markedly reduced.

Having said that, there isn't any evidence that "overpasteurising" has any adverse effect on the cider flavour.

If you try the Cooler Method, I suggest having a water filled test bottle with a thermometer in the bath and simply remove the bottles when they have reached the pasteurisation temperature that you want. Generally the temperature distribution in the bottles stabilises in 10-20 minutes so your bottle core temperature will understate the temperature at the edges, This doesn't matter since the edges will be pasteurised a little more than the core of the bottle.

In any case, if they like it and drink it all on NYE, happy days... Merry Xmas!

 

[tlc]

I just read the paper. Had some good advice now I just need to digest it a bit. Here is what I was thinking of doing and feel free to correct me if you see a flaw in my plan or add better advice. I was going to preheat in sink to get bottles to about 120f using a bottle with thermometer in it and then put the bottles into a cooler that had water at 160f and let soak for 20 min and then let the water out of the cooler and then let bottles sit in the cooler for the rest of the night with the lid open to allow to come to room temp again.

 

[Chalkyt]

Yep, that will work although you will probably overcater on the PUs generated. Your bottles will get from 120F to 160F quite quickly, then if they sit for some minutes at 160F, you will be developing a further 30PUs per minute. What you are suggesting will give you something like Fig 4 plus whatever extra PUs you get from having the bottles sit around for an extra 10 minutes or so. You probably don't need to keep the bottles soaking once their temperature reaches 160F (71C).

But, if it your first attempt and are taking a conservative approach that you are comfortable with, it won't cause any harm to overcater a bit.

 

[tlc]

Thank you for the advice. I'm trying to get the results I need but do it as safely as I can and make sure I get over 50pu's which is what I read is what I need. I don't have the refrigerator space so they will be stored in the cupboard until I am ready to drink them. Since this is my first batch ever I'm trying to cross all my t's and dot all my i's before I come to that step in the process.

 

[tlc]

Rick, I see you used 1 oz corn sugar per gallon for your priming sugar. Did that get you a good carbonation level. I like it carbonated.

 

[Rick Stephens]

I just now finished a 5 gallon batch. I used 1.5 ounce per gallon of corn sugar. I melted the sugar in 2 cups of warm water.

Note - the amount of corn sugar added is to offset what the yeast turns to carbonation and alcohol sugars. Since we are sweetening with AJC or other sugar as well, the amount of corn sugar isn't going to determine what carbonation you get, it only offsets the taste. If you leave the bottles too long before pasteurizing you will overshoot and blow bottles.

 

[tlc]

Ok...that makes sense so I don't want no bombs so I will be monitors with squeeze bottle and pasteurize as soon as I feel it is hard enough.

 

[Maylar]

Pressure monitor...

 

[toadie]

Just thought I'd mention that I always have a bottle of Ribena (5x black currant concentrate and sugary) in the fridge in a squirt bottle. I like dry cider but if we need to sweeten it up just add a bit plus it adds a nice colour.

 

[tlc]

I just tasted it last night and the cinnamon and vanilla are coming through good so I will probably pull out the cinnamon sticks Wednesday and plan on bottling Friday when I get off work. The flavor got me thinking about maybe splitting the batch in two and doing 2.5 gal of the apple spiced cider(back sweetening with FAJC) and 2.5 gal of a pumpkin spiced so has anyone added some pumpkin spice to their cider for back sweetening before bottling and roughly what was the amount. I'm thinking on using some pumpkin pie spiced extract along with maybe some pumpkin spice pie filling in a can lightly heated with some brown sugar and AJ to sweeten it. Right now the cider has a nice cinnamon/vanilla flavor. Open to any and all suggestions...Thanks

 

[tlc]

I'm going to use the Saf us-04 on my next batch because I've read it doesn't go as low on the hydro and leaves a sweeter taste. Has anyone used this and is it a good yeast for a sweet cider. The Red star cotes des blanc I used went down to a 1.000 and it dry and bittery when done.

 

[Rick Stephens]

All relative of course. S-04 has left a bit more fruity aromatics, but for me, still stops close enough to 1.000 as to not matter much. I have a 5 gallon batch of Grahams aging that was done with s-04. It is the best smelling batch I ever made. The lime really stayed with it.

 

[Chalkyt]

SO4 is my go-to if I can't get WLP775 (most of the time here in Oz...keeping it cold in transit from the USA is an issue with Covid freight restrictions and delays, as well local brew shops aren't keen if the $AUD/$USD exchange rate is too unfavourable).

SO4 generally finishes around 1.003 and leaves just a touch of sweetness, so to make life easy (and pasteurisationless) I will sometimes bottle at around 1.008 and see what I get... usually a slightly sweet carbonated cider (YUM!)