Can you stop yeast before it gets to dry and if so how?

[tlc]

is it roughly 1 can of AJC per gallon for flavoring and then you add the corn sugar for priming before pasteurizing when it gets to correct hardness of the test bottle. Does the sugar from the AJC matter in calculation since you are pasteurizing right after you get the correct flavor. I'm thinking on using 2 bottles incase I want a little more carbonation after I test the 1st one and I can always drink it .

 

[Chalkyt]

When you are ready to bottle and you want a bit of sweetness and carbonation, I would go through the following steps...
1. Bring it up to the flavour/sweetness that you want by adding sugar, juice, AJC or even non fermentable sweetener like Xylitol etc.

2. Measure the SG at that point, then add extra sugar etc for potential carbonation, say enough to increase SG by 0.005 or as a rule of thumb, two tsp of sugar per litre, preferably as a sugar syrup so that it can mix evenly with the cider.

3. Bottle, then pasteurise to stop carbonation in the bottle at whatever pasteurisation level you want (i.e. use the soft drink bottle squeeze method, pressure gauge, estimate based on the rate of fermentation, or whatever). Ideally pasteurisation should take place when the extra carbonation sugar has been consumed and the SG has dropped back to your desired flavour/sweetness profile.

It won't hurt to leave some of your cider in secondary while you do this with a smaller batch just to see if it works out O.K. (unless you want it for Xmas in which case dive in with the lot!)

 

[Rick Stephens]

With Chalkyt here. That is pretty much just what I described. So I hit the taste I want with sugars, acids, AJC, straight juice, whatever, to taste. Then I add corn sugar for prime to make the carbonation. The hope is the end product tastes the same as what I ended up with before adding the prime.

I use low end 1 ounce of sugar per gallon for light carbonation to 1.5 ounce of sugar per gallon for a little heavier.

I never open the plastic coke bottle at all, after using it as a test I refrigerate to stop the yeasties and then drink later. The plastic bottle is purely a gauge for what pressures are by feel. Once the plastic starts getting hard, I start opening one of the bottle to see how it goes. I don't always taste that - you can tell just by how it hisses at you on open, and whether any of the carbonation makes any foam on top. If you get a bit of foam on top when you open, that is plenty! Mostly I just pop a freshly sanitized cap right back on the bottle and stick it back with the batch. This doesn't seem to effect it at all.

 

[tlc]

When I'm ready to get the taste do I put it in the bottling bucket and then add the ajc and after I get the taste I want then I add the priming sugar and immediately bottle it or do you flavor while in carboy. I'm thinking 2 weeks in carboy to help clear out and then bottle so I can have some ready by news years eve party at my house.

 

[tlc]

as far as pasteurizing have either one of you used the cooler method. I've been doing some reading on it and seems like it works pretty good and you can do more bottles at a time and in case you did get a bottle bomb it would be contained in the cooler...thoughts???. You guys have been a wealth of information...I feel like I know you.

 

[Rick Stephens]

When I'm ready to get the taste do I put it in the bottling bucket and then add the ajc and after I get the taste I want then I add the priming sugar and immediately bottle it.

Zactly

 

[tlc]

I like a good carbonation so should i plan on 1.5 oz per gallon and does the amt have to be perfect say if I have a little less than 5 gallons do I need to know it exactly or just call it 5 gallons. I will be testing with bottle and then pasteurizing.

 

[Chalkyt]

Jim Rausch's cooler method would be just fine. However (as always) there are a couple of things to think about...

I think that you have read or downloaded the PDF "Cider Heat Pasteurising and Carbonation", if not see my post 25 Sept. Figure 6 in that PDF is basically the Cooler Method. You will see that by pre heating the bottles, you may reach a pasteurisation temperature over 70C and in fact in Fig 6, the method generated over 600PUs. So, pre heating isn't really needed as long as the desired bottle temperature is achieved, or you work with a low er than 80C bath temperature.

With higher pasteurisation temperature there may be two adverse side effects. Firstly, higher temperature means higher bottle pressure, and secondly too high a temperature can "cook" the cider.

The way that the Cooler Method and Pappers approaches work is that the volume of bottles and their contents cool down the bath temperature as it heats up the bottles, until some equilibrium temperature is reached (ideally around 70C or less). This all depends on how hot the bath is and how much hot water, and how cool the bottles are and how many. i.e. there are a few variables to manage.

In my test case, a ratio of 7:1 worked well (15 litres of 80C water and 2 litres of bottles and cider at 20C resulted in an equilibrium temperature of about 70C)

Have a look at a post by Jaypkk (3 Dec). There is a summary and a link to a research paper from Washington State University which demonstrates that pasteurisation of cider can be achieved at temperatures between 60C and 65C with short time exposure. Certainly it supports the idea that 30PUs or even less is fine for cider, and at the lower temperature, bottle pressure is unlikely to exceed 100 psi so the chance of bottle bombs is markedly reduced.

Having said that, there isn't any evidence that "overpasteurising" has any adverse effect on the cider flavour.

If you try the Cooler Method, I suggest having a water filled test bottle with a thermometer in the bath and simply remove the bottles when they have reached the pasteurisation temperature that you want. Generally the temperature distribution in the bottles stabilises in 10-20 minutes so your bottle core temperature will understate the temperature at the edges, This doesn't matter since the edges will be pasteurised a little more than the core of the bottle.

In any case, if they like it and drink it all on NYE, happy days... Merry Xmas!

 

[tlc]

I just read the paper. Had some good advice now I just need to digest it a bit. Here is what I was thinking of doing and feel free to correct me if you see a flaw in my plan or add better advice. I was going to preheat in sink to get bottles to about 120f using a bottle with thermometer in it and then put the bottles into a cooler that had water at 160f and let soak for 20 min and then let the water out of the cooler and then let bottles sit in the cooler for the rest of the night with the lid open to allow to come to room temp again.

 

[Chalkyt]

Yep, that will work although you will probably overcater on the PUs generated. Your bottles will get from 120F to 160F quite quickly, then if they sit for some minutes at 160F, you will be developing a further 30PUs per minute. What you are suggesting will give you something like Fig 4 plus whatever extra PUs you get from having the bottles sit around for an extra 10 minutes or so. You probably don't need to keep the bottles soaking once their temperature reaches 160F (71C).

But, if it your first attempt and are taking a conservative approach that you are comfortable with, it won't cause any harm to overcater a bit.

 

[tlc]

Thank you for the advice. I'm trying to get the results I need but do it as safely as I can and make sure I get over 50pu's which is what I read is what I need. I don't have the refrigerator space so they will be stored in the cupboard until I am ready to drink them. Since this is my first batch ever I'm trying to cross all my t's and dot all my i's before I come to that step in the process.

 

[tlc]

Rick, I see you used 1 oz corn sugar per gallon for your priming sugar. Did that get you a good carbonation level. I like it carbonated.

 

[Rick Stephens]

I just now finished a 5 gallon batch. I used 1.5 ounce per gallon of corn sugar. I melted the sugar in 2 cups of warm water.

Note - the amount of corn sugar added is to offset what the yeast turns to carbonation and alcohol sugars. Since we are sweetening with AJC or other sugar as well, the amount of corn sugar isn't going to determine what carbonation you get, it only offsets the taste. If you leave the bottles too long before pasteurizing you will overshoot and blow bottles.

 

[tlc]

Ok...that makes sense so I don't want no bombs so I will be monitors with squeeze bottle and pasteurize as soon as I feel it is hard enough.

 

[Maylar]

Pressure monitor...

 

[toadie]

Just thought I'd mention that I always have a bottle of Ribena (5x black currant concentrate and sugary) in the fridge in a squirt bottle. I like dry cider but if we need to sweeten it up just add a bit plus it adds a nice colour.

 

[tlc]

I just tasted it last night and the cinnamon and vanilla are coming through good so I will probably pull out the cinnamon sticks Wednesday and plan on bottling Friday when I get off work. The flavor got me thinking about maybe splitting the batch in two and doing 2.5 gal of the apple spiced cider(back sweetening with FAJC) and 2.5 gal of a pumpkin spiced so has anyone added some pumpkin spice to their cider for back sweetening before bottling and roughly what was the amount. I'm thinking on using some pumpkin pie spiced extract along with maybe some pumpkin spice pie filling in a can lightly heated with some brown sugar and AJ to sweeten it. Right now the cider has a nice cinnamon/vanilla flavor. Open to any and all suggestions...Thanks

 

[tlc]

I'm going to use the Saf us-04 on my next batch because I've read it doesn't go as low on the hydro and leaves a sweeter taste. Has anyone used this and is it a good yeast for a sweet cider. The Red star cotes des blanc I used went down to a 1.000 and it dry and bittery when done.

 

[Rick Stephens]

All relative of course. S-04 has left a bit more fruity aromatics, but for me, still stops close enough to 1.000 as to not matter much. I have a 5 gallon batch of Grahams aging that was done with s-04. It is the best smelling batch I ever made. The lime really stayed with it.

 

[Chalkyt]

SO4 is my go-to if I can't get WLP775 (most of the time here in Oz...keeping it cold in transit from the USA is an issue with Covid freight restrictions and delays, as well local brew shops aren't keen if the $AUD/$USD exchange rate is too unfavourable).

SO4 generally finishes around 1.003 and leaves just a touch of sweetness, so to make life easy (and pasteurisationless) I will sometimes bottle at around 1.008 and see what I get... usually a slightly sweet carbonated cider (YUM!)

 

[tlc]

I just got done splitting my first 5 gallons into two 2.5 gal batches and did one with a back sweetening of ajc and the other with a back sweetening of pear juice boiled down to a concentrate and bottling them. They both taste amazing just as a still cider (my wife and a couple of friends opinions). You can taste the subtleness of cinnamon and vanilla but not overpowering. I can't wait to see how they taste carbonated. I will be cooler pasteurizing when the test bottle is ready. I couldn't have done this with out everyone's help...Thank you for all the great advice!!!

 

[tlc]

I cooler pasteurized them to day and I had them in 125deg sink water and then put in a cooler with water at 160deg and internal temp of bottle was 150 deg so I left them in the cooler for 20 min and then removed and let sit on counter to cool down, I was shooting for 160 deg so will this be enough or do I need to do it again. I had to go to work so I didn't have time to re do them so I will id I need to. They will probably all get drank on New Years Eve or sooner. Thanks for any advice and have a great day.

 

[tlc]

Will what I did be enough or??? don't want bottle bombs...Thanks

 

[Rick Stephens]

First few times I pasteurized I left a single open bottle full of water in with the cider bottles and then I could drop an instant read thermometer in it to see what temps I reached. If I got it over 150ƒ INSIDE the bottles, I would consider it good to go. I only did mine on a CampChef LPG stove in big canning pots where I could set temps exactly the way I wanted and could measure results. I don't think from your description that anyone can quantify your results for you since they were't there measuring temps.

 

[tlc]

That's good to hear. I used an open bottle of water with a thermometer in it and the temp was over 150deg for 10 min. The temp slowly climbed from 150 to 155 before starting to cool back down very slowly. I set them on the counter after I removed them 20 min later and they were still above 145 at last check before leaving for work. Of all nights to get called in for OT
Thanks for getting back to me,

 

[tlc]

Jim Rausch's cooler method would be just fine. However (as always) there are a couple of things to think about...

I think that you have read or downloaded the PDF "Cider Heat Pasteurising and Carbonation", if not see my post 25 Sept. Figure 6 in that PDF is basically the Cooler Method. You will see that by pre heating the bottles, you may reach a pasteurisation temperature over 70C and in fact in Fig 6, the method generated over 600PUs. So, pre heating isn't really needed as long as the desired bottle temperature is achieved, or you work with a low er than 80C bath temperature.

With higher pasteurisation temperature there may be two adverse side effects. Firstly, higher temperature means higher bottle pressure, and secondly too high a temperature can "cook" the cider.

The way that the Cooler Method and Pappers approaches work is that the volume of bottles and their contents cool down the bath temperature as it heats up the bottles, until some equilibrium temperature is reached (ideally around 70C or less). This all depends on how hot the bath is and how much hot water, and how cool the bottles are and how many. i.e. there are a few variables to manage.

In my test case, a ratio of 7:1 worked well (15 litres of 80C water and 2 litres of bottles and cider at 20C resulted in an equilibrium temperature of about 70C)

Have a look at a post by Jaypkk (3 Dec). There is a summary and a link to a research paper from Washington State University which demonstrates that pasteurisation of cider can be achieved at temperatures between 60C and 65C with short time exposure. Certainly it supports the idea that 30PUs or even less is fine for cider, and at the lower temperature, bottle pressure is unlikely to exceed 100 psi so the chance of bottle bombs is markedly reduced.

Having said that, there isn't any evidence that "overpasteurising" has any adverse effect on the cider flavour.

If you try the Cooler Method, I suggest having a water filled test bottle with a thermometer in the bath and simply remove the bottles when they have reached the pasteurisation temperature that you want. Generally the temperature distribution in the bottles stabilises in 10-20 minutes so your bottle core temperature will understate the temperature at the edges, This doesn't matter since the edges will be pasteurised a little more than the core of the bottle.

In any case, if they like it and drink it all on NYE, happy days... Merry Xmas!

Chalkyt,
I'm not sure how to actually calculate the PU's so based on what I did and the temps listed below can you see how many PU's I would generated and if you don't mind show me how the calculation works so I will be able to do it myself in the future...Thanks for your help.

 

[Chalkyt]

It usually takes a couple of weeks for significant carbonation to take place from low SG levels, so apart from anything else, gushers would be unlikely by NYE.

Some recent research from Washington State University reinforces the view that less than 30 PUs is more than enough for cider. In your case holding the bottles at 150F-155F for around ten minutes would generate over 50 PUs. Cooldown from this temperature would generate similar PUs due to the residual temperature of the bottles so you can be confident that you have "nuked" the yeast with something like 100 PUs and stopped any chance of refermenting.

 

[tlc]

That's what I was going for. I got confused with reading some post of some people putting the bottles in water at 150 deg and leaving for 15 min. I wasn't sure if that was 150 deg water and walk away or 150 deg after the bottle fluid temp was at 150 deg. Going forward I will monitor the fluid temp and when it gets above 150-155 deg then I will start the timer for 10 min. I feel good with around 100 PUs. I've got a lot to learn on pasteurizing. I opened a bottle a few minutes ago and it had a very nice fizz going on so I think I was around a 2.5 Co2 because I opened a Angry Orchard Cider and pored them side by side. (wife was impressed and likes the flavor). I couldn't have done it without everyone's help. I Hope everyone has a Great Christmas!!!

 

[Chalkyt]

Looks like our posts overlapped.

Calculating PUs is based on a formula developed by H.W. del Veccio and others in the 1950s. It is still used today. They found that pasteurisation starts to occur around 60C, and the amount of PUs generated increases exponentially with temperature beyond that. There is a very good post by Bembel (11 May 2016) that outlines a method of monitoring PUs by recording the time that bottles are at a particular temperature. I use a slightly different method where I record the temperature at each minute. This is easy to do with a phone stopwatch/timer.

In both cases, punching the times and temperatures into a spreadsheet makes life easy. I have attached a PDF of the the Excel spreadsheet that I use, with some data that might simulate your outcome. I find that this is good enough to monitor what is happening and when to remove the bottles from the water, etc. Unfortunately, "the system" doesn't allow me to attach the actual spreadsheet as an Excel file to the post, but can send you the various cell formulas if you want to make your own. Just let me know.

The del Veccio formula is... PU=t x 1.393 raised to the power of (T-60) where t= time in minutes and T= temp in C.

Here is a table that shows the exponential increase in PUs per minute as temperature increases.

Temp C	60​	61​	62​	63​	64​	65​	66​	67​	68​	69​	70​
Temp F	140​	142​	144​	145​	147​	149​	151​	153​	154​	156​	158​
PUs per minute	1.0​	1.4​	1.9​	2.7​	3.8​	5.2​	7.3​	10.2​	14.2​	19.7​	27.5​

So, you can see that at your bottle temperature of 150F for 10 minutes you will have generated at least 50 PUs (i.e. 5.2 PUs per minute X 10 minutes). Then if you calculate the PUs generated each minute at the relevant temperature during cooldown you will probably get another 50 PUs or so. The idea of using low temperatures and longer times is to minimise the pressure buildup in the bottles as the pasteurising heat drives the CO2 gas out of solution and creates bottle pressure. (see Andrew Lea's carbonation calculator (http://www.cider.org.uk/carbonation_table.xls)

Sorry if this sounds a bit "heavy" but it isn't, once you understand how heat pasteurisation works.

Cheers! Merry Xmas.

 

[tlc]

That helps a lot and thanks for the attachment...Looks like I got some homework to do.

 

[tlc]

How do I find the post by Bembel you are referencing.

 

[tlc]

Found it...