bottle carbonation

[Dorabull]

Hi,

I back sweetened and bottled a small batch of cider last night. My intention is to pasteurize it so that I can have a sweet, carbonated cider without any artificial sweeteners. I did fill one plastic water bottle to try to use it to gauge the carbonation, though I've been reading in the forum today and it seems like that's of limited use. Anyways, my question is about carbonation speed. When I have used the kits, (and from what I've read on here), carbonation takes a week or two. But, when I've used the kits, it has fermented dry, and has had a packet of non fermentable sweetener. Will it carbonate faster if there is excess sugar? Or does the carbonation take place at about the same speed and I would be okay to leave it for a few more days before pasteurizing

 

[Chalkyt]

There is not a simple answer to your question since the rate of fermentation depends on a mixture of the type of yeast (i.e. how robustly that particular yeast gets stuck into gobbling up sugars, and regenerating itself so that here is more yeast to eat sugar and generate C02), the temperature (generally, warmer is faster), what level of nutrients remain in the cider (i.e. YAN or Yeast assimilable Nitrogen... ale yeasts like S04 need a lot more YAN than some other yeasts and can actually stop if there isn't enough YAN), etc. If you want to slow down the carbonation for a few days, lowering the temperature should work

You are right that the squeeze test can have limited value, but only because hard is hard. Hard is around 2-3 volumes of C02 and it won't feel any harder at 4 volumes etc. Having said that, I usually carbonate at 2 volumes or a little above (soft drink and beer is usually around 2.5 volumes). Although I use a bottle fitted with a pressure gauge to monitor carbonation, I have also used the squeeze test, but you do have to monitor it daily after a week to know when it is hard enough otherwise the pressure can get excessive without you knowing. As a backup you can open a bottle after a week, then perhaps another one a few days later (drink the sacrificed "test bottles" in the interest of learning how carbonated they are... Yum!).

Also FYI, one volume of C02 in a drink is the same volume of C02 as the drink itself (i.e. 1 litre of C02 in a litre of cider = 1 volume) so you can limit the amount of C02 by limiting how much sugar is available to carbonate. It is a bit complex to go into here, but there is an excellent article "Bottle Conditioned Cider Guide" by Alex Simmens of Llanblethian Orchards, easily found by Google.

I hope this helps

Cheers!

 

[DaveDiamond]

There is not a simple answer to your question since the rate of fermentation depends on a mixture of the type of yeast (i.e. how robustly that particular yeast gets stuck into gobbling up sugars, and regenerating itself so that here is more yeast to eat sugar and generate C02), the temperature (generally, warmer is faster), what level of nutrients remain in the cider (i.e. YAN or Yeast assimilable Nitrogen... ale yeasts like S04 need a lot more YAN than some other yeasts and can actually stop if there isn't enough YAN), etc. If you want to slow down the carbonation for a few days, lowering the temperature should work

You are right that the squeeze test can have limited value, but only because hard is hard. Hard is around 2-3 volumes of C02 and it won't feel any harder at 4 volumes etc. Having said that, I usually carbonate at 2 volumes or a little above (soft drink and beer is usually around 2.5 volumes). Although I use a bottle fitted with a pressure gauge to monitor carbonation, I have also used the squeeze test, but you do have to monitor it daily after a week to know when it is hard enough otherwise the pressure can get excessive without you knowing. As a backup you can open a bottle after a week, then perhaps another one a few days later (drink the sacrificed "test bottles" in the interest of learning how carbonated they are... Yum!).

Also FYI, one volume of C02 in a drink is the same volume of C02 as the drink itself (i.e. 1 litre of C02 in a litre of cider = 1 volume) so you can limit the amount of C02 by limiting how much sugar is available to carbonate. It is a bit complex to go into here, but there is an excellent article "Bottle Conditioned Cider Guide" by Alex Simmens of Llanblethian Orchards, easily found by Google.

I hope this helps

Cheers!

That helps me! I used S-04, pitched 19/7 at 1.068, was 1.027 a week later, was 0.994 when bottled on 7/8. I used Cooper's Carbonation drops so I wasn't too worried about monitoring them but I squeezed one the other day and it still wasn't hard. After 3 weeks I thought it might be.
S-04 seemed to be often recommended, but this is the first I've heard about it having a high nutrient demand, I didn't use any at all.
Footnote- My hydrometer read distilled water as 0.994, but I had already checked it a month or so before and got 1.000, so I don't know when it messed up, my readings are probably out. I did drop it a couple of times and then left it sitting in the sanitiser so maybe it leaked. I have one from keeping brackish fish so I use that now, but that doesn't go below 1.000. I'm really not sure how going below 1.000 with water based liquid is possible anyway to be honest.

 

[Maylar]

I'm really not sure how going below 1.000 with water based liquid is possible anyway to be honest.

Because alcohol is thinner than water.

 

[Dorabull]

There is not a simple answer to your question since the rate of fermentation depends on a mixture of the type of yeast (i.e. how robustly that particular yeast gets stuck into gobbling up sugars, and regenerating itself so that here is more yeast to eat sugar and generate C02), the temperature (generally, warmer is faster), what level of nutrients remain in the cider (i.e. YAN or Yeast assimilable Nitrogen... ale yeasts like S04 need a lot more YAN than some other yeasts and can actually stop if there isn't enough YAN), etc. If you want to slow down the carbonation for a few days, lowering the temperature should work

You are right that the squeeze test can have limited value, but only because hard is hard. Hard is around 2-3 volumes of C02 and it won't feel any harder at 4 volumes etc. Having said that, I usually carbonate at 2 volumes or a little above (soft drink and beer is usually around 2.5 volumes). Although I use a bottle fitted with a pressure gauge to monitor carbonation, I have also used the squeeze test, but you do have to monitor it daily after a week to know when it is hard enough otherwise the pressure can get excessive without you knowing. As a backup you can open a bottle after a week, then perhaps another one a few days later (drink the sacrificed "test bottles" in the interest of learning how carbonated they are... Yum!).

Also FYI, one volume of C02 in a drink is the same volume of C02 as the drink itself (i.e. 1 litre of C02 in a litre of cider = 1 volume) so you can limit the amount of C02 by limiting how much sugar is available to carbonate. It is a bit complex to go into here, but there is an excellent article "Bottle Conditioned Cider Guide" by Alex Simmens of Llanblethian Orchards, easily found by Google.

I hope this helps

Cheers!

Thanks! Is the bottle pressure gauge you use purchased, or DIY?

 

[Maylar]

Thanks! Is the bottle pressure gauge you use purchased, or DIY?

DIY:

Cider Pressure Gage

 

[Chalkyt]

A couple of answers here…

Re S-04 stalling. Somewhare in the dim, dark, past I came across some information about S-04 from (I think) Scott Labs who rated it as high nutrient demand. Generally, ale yeasts are considered to be in this category compared with wine or champagne yeasts. I understand that S-04 needs 150 -200 ppm of YAN to complete a typical cider fermentation. Most apples should have a high level of YAN, however it can be as low as 50ppm in late season apples from old, unfertilised trees… a triple whammy which describes my small orchard. So, I have had S-04 stall at around SG 1.010. Both Jolicoeur and Lee indicate that around 50ppm of DAP (20ppm YAN) is needed for a 0.010 SG drop, i.e. a OG 1.050 juice needs at least 100ppm of YAN.

If my cider stalls at SG1.010 a “pinch” of DAP gets it going again, which suggests that the S-04 has run out of inherent YAN in the juice. The current “wisdom” seems to be to add nutrients (DAP or Fermaid) about 2/3 of the way into fermentation (i.e. around SG 1.020). This causes the yeast to use the YAN in the juice first, then relies on the addition, so fermentation proceeds slowly rather than going off robustly at the start.

Re the bottle pressure gauge. Mine is also DIY, made about 5 years ago and was inspired by Mylar’s original post. This topic comes up frequently and I posted a DIY description and other useful stuff about monitoring carbonation on 22 October 2024.

Cheers!

 

[Chalkyt]

A couple of answers here…

Re S-04 stalling. Somewhare in the dim, dark, past I came across some information about S-04 from (I think) Scott Labs who rated it as high nutrient demand. Generally, ale yeasts are considered to be in this category compared with wine or champagne yeasts. I understand that S-04 needs 150 -200 ppm of YAN to complete a typical cider fermentation. Most apples should have a high level of YAN, however it can be as low as 50ppm in late season apples from old, unfertilised trees… a triple whammy which describes my small orchard. So, I have had S-04 stall at around SG 1.010. Both Jolicoeur and Lee indicate that around 50ppm of DAP (20ppm YAN) is needed for a 0.010 SG drop, i.e. a OG 1.050 juice needs at least 100ppm of YAN.

If my cider stalls at SG1.010 a “pinch” of DAP gets it going again, which suggests that the S-04 has run out of inherent YAN in the juice. The current “wisdom” seems to be to add nutrients (DAP or Fermaid) about 2/3 of the way into fermentation (i.e.around SG 1.020). This causes the yeast to use the YAN in the juice first, then relies on the addition, so fermentation proceeds slowly rather than going off robustly at the start.

Re the bottle pressure gauge. Mine is also DIY, made about 5 years ago and was inspired by Mylar’s original post. This topic comes up frequently and I posted a DIY description and other useful stuff about monitoring carbonation on 22 October 2024.

Cheers!

 

[DaveDiamond]

Because alcohol is thinner than water.

I thought that might be the case. Aquarium hydrometers just assume that pure water is as low as they need to go, and 1.100 is as high as they need to go, so there are limitations when using one.

 

[Chalkyt]

I recall doing a trial comparing a squeeze bottle with the pressure gauge results (it was posted Nov 4 2024) so I looked up my notes. Basically, both worked but the squeeze bottle was hard at 1.6bar (about 2.5 volumes of C02) so there was no way of knowing when the pressure was getting higher than this and heading into "bottle bomb" territory.

 

[Maylar]

I thought that might be the case. Aquarium hydrometers just assume that pure water is as low as they need to go, and 1.100 is as high as they need to go, so there are limitations when using one.

Your carboy isn't an aquarium.

The standard triple scale brewer's hydrometer typically covers from 0.990 to 1.160. It's not uncommon for wine/cider/mead to finish below 1.000, and a 14% ABV mead would start at about 1.106. And when you get to the point of wanting to accurately sweeten a batch, a narrow range "finishing" hydrometer is a great tool to have (buy two, they break easily lol). I'm sure they have them in OZ.

 

[Chalkyt]

Yep, I can confirm that 1.020 - 0.980 finishing hydrometers are easy to break, especially if you accidently drop them into an empty measuring cylinder. I have broken two that way!!!!

I agree that buying two is the best insurance... now that I have a spare, I haven't had a break! FYI, the new ones are Stevenson Reeves brand that I got through Amazon and are a bit shorter and more robust than the "easy to break" version but still have graduations that are about 1.5mm apart per SG point.

 

[DaveDiamond]

Your carboy isn't an aquarium.

The standard triple scale brewer's hydrometer typically covers from 0.990 to 1.160. It's not uncommon for wine/cider/mead to finish below 1.000, and a 14% ABV mead would start at about 1.106. And when you get to the point of wanting to accurately sweeten a batch, a narrow range "finishing" hydrometer is a great tool to have (buy two, they break easily lol). I'm sure they have them in OZ.

I did buy another, it arrived last week. Completely useless, bobs around like a cork in even in distilled water! Another on the way, but 10 days is standard postage here. At least I had a brand new aquarium one on hand in the meantime. The Coopers one seems to be a constant 6 points out, so I could still use it if I have to.

 

[Maylar]

Yep, I can confirm that 1.020 - 0.980 finishing hydrometers are easy to break, especially if you accidently drop them into an empty measuring cylinder. I have broken two that way!!!!

I agree that buying two is the best insurance... now that I have a spare, I haven't had a break! FYI, the new ones are Stevenson Reeves brand that I got through Amazon and are a bit shorter and more robust than the "easy to break" version but still have graduations that are about 1.5mm apart per SG point.

Funny that - I haven't broken one either since I have two LOL. My only complaint besides being delicate is that they require a rather large sample. Gotta use my biggest vial. And DON'T use them as a stirrer

 

[Dorabull]

Well, I screwed up. While I was out all day, I forgot to close the windows and turn on the AC. It was pretty hot in here when I got home, hotter than I ever let it get when I'm here. I decided to open a bottle of cider to test the carbonation. It's only been 4 days, but it was a bit of a geyser. So I realized that I need to pasteurize them today. The first half dozen were fine. In the second group, 3 of the bottles pushed the gasket out a bit and vented. I probably lost about 2/3 of a bottle in total. The 3rd group, I thought maybe it would be better if I burped them a bit before pasteurizing, but one of them actually blew out the bottom of the bottle.

I will definitely be getting myself set up with a pressure gauge for the next batch.

 

[DaveDiamond]

Well, I screwed up. While I was out all day, I forgot to close the windows and turn on the AC. It was pretty hot in here when I got home, hotter than I ever let it get when I'm here. I decided to open a bottle of cider to test the carbonation. It's only been 4 days, but it was a bit of a geyser. So I realized that I need to pasteurize them today. The first half dozen were fine. In the second group, 3 of the bottles pushed the gasket out a bit and vented. I probably lost about 2/3 of a bottle in total. The 3rd group, I thought maybe it would be better if I burped them a bit before pasteurizing, but one of them actually blew out the bottom of the bottle.

I will definitely be getting myself set up with a pressure gauge for the next batch.

I bought a plastic carbonation lid and a pressure gauge from AliExpress to rig something up but then I saw Brian and Derica from the CSB YT channel using the other part of the carbonation kit as a gauge simply by closing the tap that would turn off the gas bottle. I'll see if I can find it.

@Chalkyt You might be interested too.

Found it, start a 17:38

 

[Chalkyt]

Yep, Dave... that is the sort of thing we have been talking about. Use whatever works. BTY, I think that B&D do some pretty good stuff.

 

[DaveDiamond]

Yep, Dave... that is the sort of thing we have been talking about. Use whatever works. BTY, I think that B&D do some pretty good stuff.

Yeah, I've been following them and checking out their videos. They just seem like people I'd expect to see across the table at a gathering, very much like my wife and I. I think I can safely assume that they're honest trustworthy people so their videos have a lot of credibility imo.