can you make a beer with no barley, using wheat and oats?

[The Mad Brewer]

can you make a beer with no barley, using wheat and oats?

 

[Beernik]

Yes, high probability of a mash though. Taste might be weird.

Use a bunch of rice hulls.

 

[bracconiere]

i've brewed many 100% oat beers..malted of course, i'd keep the wheat down though because it doesn't have a husk...but with how much husk oats have, probably could do 50/50....

 

[hotbeer]

But is it beer?

If you look at the definition of beer in most dictionaries it says a alcoholic drink made with barley. Some use malt, but when you look at their definition of malt they say malts are usually made from barley.


And we could pull out the Reinheitsgebot Reinheitsgebot - Wikipedia

Many of us regularly violate that though since we also use priming sugar when we bottle.

 

[AlexKay]

100% wheat definitely works — that’s what’s traditional for a Grodziskie. Regular malted wheat has a ton of diastatic power. I’ve made a 100% Lichtenhainer, and a 100% wheat porter once, too: white wheat, crystal wheat, midnight wheat, and smoked wheat. Came out well.

 

[bracconiere]

100% wheat definitely works — that’s what’s traditional for a Grodziskie. Regular malted wheat has a ton of diastatic power. I’ve made a 100% Lichtenhainer, and a 100% wheat porter once, too: white wheat, crystal wheat, midnight wheat, and smoked wheat. Came out well.

how did you sparge it?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

The guys on Basic Brewing Radio did some 100% Wheat batches (maybe Red vs White). They brewed via BIAB, and did not report any issues with the mash. They tasted them along with the same recipe made with 100% barley. As I recall they were able to pick out the barley batch, but it did not seem very easy for them. I would have thought there would be a drastic difference between a barley and a wheat beer. I am pretty sure they were even looking at the beers in clear cups.

 

[AlexKay]

how did you sparge it?

It’s all about BIAB.

Someday I’ll make a recipe that involves wheat, oats, rye, and unmalted barley and name it “Take That, 3-Vessel Brewers.”

 

[bracconiere]

“Take That, 3-Vessel Brewers.”

really...

(and your bag counts!)

 

[Oleson M.D.]

But why would you want to?

 

[The Mad Brewer]

I guess I thought it had something to do with enzymes and you had to have barley for conversion..... this is interesting because I like to experimenting and want to try an all oat an all wheat beers.
Didn't the Egyptians make beer?

 

[The Mad Brewer]

But why would you want to?

What if you cant get Barley or its in real short supply. Also isn't the Ukraine and Russia the big exporters. I have been hearing rumors of a shortage coming.

 

[Drewch]

But why wouldn't you want to?

There, I fixed that for you.

 

[AlexKay]

I guess I thought it had something to do with enzymes and you had to have barley for conversion..... this is interesting because I like to experimenting and want to try an all oat an all wheat beers.
Didn't the Egyptians make beer?

Wheat has more than enough enzymes. Oats and rye are generally able to self convert, but it’s a closer call. Oats need to be malted, of course, and there aren’t too many sources. When you’ve got a recipe, post it in the recipes forum and people can give you a best guess on enzyme levels.

 

[bracconiere]

I guess I thought it had something to do with enzymes and you had to have barley for conversion..

yes it does, why the grain needs to be malted...that way it basicly developes a enzymatic mouth to start breast feeding...then you mumyfy it, throw it in the oven so it doesn't leave a bad taste...and then rehydrate....

another thing to consider is some grains have higher gel temps, so can't be malted and mashed, like corn and rice....

What if you cant get Barley or its in real short supply.

yeah that's when i brew oat beer, i go to the feed store for whole barley. they tell me they're out. so pick up a bag of oats....

Oats need to be malted, of course,

beat me to it!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I also recall Basic Brewing Radio/Video making a 100% Rye beer. If I recall correctly, the mash was really sticky and the final beer was very thick and heavy. I also recall James saying he has made a few batches of a low ABV Rye beer (probably around 3% ABV) and the Rye gives it some nice body.

I only recall seeing malted Barley and malted Wheat at my local shops, but you should be able to make a "beer" with any malted grain (oats, spelt, rye, etc.), or with a non-malted grain at around 50% with most malted base grains. It sounds like a good way to create some unique brews.

 

[bracconiere]

but you should be able to make a "beer" with any malted grain (oats, spelt, rye, etc.), or with a non-malted grain at around 50% with most malted base grains. It sounds like a good way to create some unique brews.

unfortantly not. different grains have diferent gelatization temps, a lot have gel temps above mash temps....so a no go....

at least that's my understanding. if it needs a cereal mash, can't brew with it directly?

 

[The Mad Brewer]

Now i have another question, Rice Hulls? Not the rice grains for brewing? Where does someone get them, my local brew shop?

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Now i have another question, Rice Hulls? Not the rice grains for brewing? Where does someone get them, my local brew shop?

The rice hulls help in the lautering phase.

Yes, you can usually get them at a homebrew store.

It's like mixing sand in with hard dirt in a flower bed or garden, it helps with the drainage.

 

[Steveruch]

But is it beer?

If you look at the definition of beer in most dictionaries it says a alcoholic drink made with barley. Some use malt, but when you look at their definition of malt they say malts are usually made from barley.


And we could pull out the Reinheitsgebot Reinheitsgebot - Wikipedia

Many of us regularly violate that though since we also use priming sugar when we bottle.

The dictionaries I looked at said "grain often or mainly barley". Any grain can be used to make beer: rice wine is a misnomer as sake is actually beer.

 

[jerrylotto]

You can make beer from any grain that can supply starches in the presence of amylase enzymes -either intrinsic or added. You don't even need for it to be malted although you would probably have to use a lot more of it and want to drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways that would have already have taken place in malting.

 

[VikeMan]

You don't even need for it to be malted although you would probably have to use a lot more of it and want to drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways that would have already have taken place in malting.

How would you propose producing alpha amylase without germination?

Also, how would using "more of it" be helpful? Whatever the amount of enzymes, they would increase, but proportionally to the starches that need conversion. i.e. use more grain and you haven't changed the diastatic power (degrees lintner).

 

[jerrylotto]

How would you propose producing alpha amylase without germination?

Also, how would using "more of it" be helpful? Whatever the amount of enzymes, they would increase, but proportionally to the starches that need conversion. i.e. use more grain and you haven't changed the diastatic power (degrees lintner).

You didn't quote the "either intrinsic or added" phrase referring to enzymes with which I predicated this statement.

 

[VikeMan]

You didn't quote the "either intrinsic or added" phrase referring to enzymes with which I predicated this statement.

No need. "Added" wasn't the part I wanted to discuss. I agree that various enzymes could be added.

"Intrinsic" was the part I wanted to discuss.

You claimed "You don't even need for it to be malted although you would probably have to use a lot more of it and want to drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways that would have already have taken place in malting."

What "low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways" process do you propose? And how does using "more of it" (i.e. more unmalted grains) help, given that the avg diastatic power doesn't change?

 

[Broothru]

The dictionaries I looked at said "grain often or mainly barley". Any grain can be used to make beer: rice wine is a misnomer as sake is actually beer.

Reminds me of the 60s line from Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In:

"They called it rice wine, but it was 'sock it to me' instead."

 

[Miraculix]

No need. "Added" wasn't the part I wanted to discuss. I agree that various enzymes could be added.

"Intrinsic" was the part I wanted to discuss.

You claimed "You don't even need for it to be malted although you would probably have to use a lot more of it and want to drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways that would have already have taken place in malting."

What "low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways" process do you propose? And how does using "more of it" (i.e. more unmalted grains) help, given that the avg diastatic power doesn't change?

Himalaya Chang is made from unmalted barley or rice or corn or millet, or a mix of any of these. They use a similar process as Chinese rice wine and sake brewers use. The unmalted grain is inoculated with certain molds and yeasts. The molds provide the enzymes to chop the starches into sugars and the yeast does what yeast does. I got 4 batches going atm, it's fun stuff.

 

[VikeMan]

Himalaya Chang is made from unmalted barley or rice or corn or millet, or a mix of any of these. They use a similar process as Chinese rice wine and sake brewers use. The unmalted grain is inoculated with certain molds and yeasts. The molds provide the enzymes to chop the starches into sugars and the yeast does what yeast does. I got 4 batches going atm, it's fun stuff.

Right. That's adding external enzymes. I'm interested in the "drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways" idea.

 

[AlexKay]

Easy peasy. Drastically alter your mashing process by starting out at low temperature: begin by adding the grains to water at room temperature or a bit below. Leave them there for a few days, periodically draining the water for an "air rest" so the grain can breathe. Then heat the barley until it dries out, and break off any rootlets that have formed. Store for four weeks or more. After this "drastic pre-mash" process, you can then proceed with a normal mash.

 

[VikeMan]

Easy peasy. Drastically alter your mashing process by starting out at low temperature: begin by adding the grains to water at room temperature or a bit below. Leave them there for a few days, periodically draining the water for an "air rest" so the grain can breathe. Then heat the barley until it dries out, and break off any rootlets that have formed. Store for four weeks or more. After this "drastic pre-mash" process, you can then proceed with a normal mash.

Lolz. Don't forget to stir/turn occasionally.

 

[bracconiere]

Right. That's adding external enzymes. I'm interested in the "drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways" idea.

didn't even think of koji...but i agree for stuff like rice and corn, you would have to start with boiling them to even get the starch available to the enzymes in the first place.....which would denature the enzymes....