Can You Brew It recipe for Wychwood Hobgoblin

[adam01]

Hmm, I'll have to see if we have the sampler pack around here.

What do you think about the sweetness - does the HG sweetness show up in the
other wychwood brews ?

I though that this sweetness may be from some oxidation. I'll have to do a taste test
with HG and with the sherry to see if that's what I taste in it.

BTW, I found out from the distributor that the beer is shipped by ocean freighter and
its flash pasteurized. She is starting to wonder why I ask these questions.

Unless its really hot in an ocean freighter these days, should a month's voyage
cause a noticable oxidation ?

 

[gbx]

Hmm, I'll have to see if we have the sampler pack around here.

What do you think about the sweetness - does the HG sweetness show up in the
other wychwood brews ?

I though that this sweetness may be from some oxidation. I'll have to do a taste test
with HG and with the sherry to see if that's what I taste in it.

BTW, I found out from the distributor that the beer is shipped by ocean freighter and
its flash pasteurized. She is starting to wonder why I ask these questions.

Unless its really hot in an ocean freighter these days, should a month's voyage
cause a noticable oxidation ?

The hobgoblin bottle in the sampler was in the best shape of any I have had and the sweetness was there but wasn't as pronounced as most bottles. All of the beers had a similar malt taste which I'm guessing is the yeast, base malts and oxidation.

...I don't know how fast oxidation comes on. Maybe its pretty quick?

 

[adam01]

I did a taste test of Hobgoblin with some sherry.... Its in there - compare the smell of some sherry (dry or cream) and Hobgoblin. You'll smell and taste a faint similarity in the two.

I'll try adding some sherry to my homebrewed version to see what it does to the taste.

 

[adam01]

Finally did a taste test - original vs homebrew.

Aroma:
orig has an oxidized smell - like sherry.
new has good hop aroma

Body:
same

Color:
orig has crystal clear color - ~12 on my SRM transparency.
new is a bit too dark, maybe 1-2. Also cloudy.

Taste:
orig is oxidized - sherry tastes.
new is clean, nice choc notes. Has bit of grainy taste.

If I add 1/2 to 1 cap of sherry to the homebrew version, it tastes a lot more like the original.

If I could get rid of the grainy taste, and clear up the color, clarity it would be real close.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Finally did a taste test - original vs homebrew.

Aroma:
orig has an oxidized smell - like sherry.
new has good hop aroma

Body:
same

Color:
orig has crystal clear color - ~12 on my SRM transparency.
new is a bit too dark, maybe 1-2. Also cloudy.

Taste:
orig is oxidized - sherry tastes.
new is clean, nice choc notes. Has bit of grainy taste.

If I add 1/2 to 1 cap of sherry to the homebrew version, it tastes a lot more like the original.

If I could get rid of the grainy taste, and clear up the color, clarity it would be real close.

Can't speak to the sherry issue but I find the water around here is horrible for brewing. Not sure what the Dallas brewers do to treat the water but I would be surprised if they didn't heavily treat or run it through an RO filter.

 

[adam01]

I run mine through a chlorine filter and add CaCl and MgSO4 for this recipe.

 

[jakegreen58]

Just brewed the hobgoblin clone today, Had to remove some hops because I didn't have access to them. I used Centennial instead of Cascade. It is now in the fermenter after brewing, aerating and pitching a 1.150L WLP 0023 Yeast (Burton Ale) starter. Will update to see how soon it starts and ends fermentation at 65F. Seems like a good recipe, can't wait to try it.

 

[jakegreen58]

With respect to H20, the best things is to have R.O. water to start adding the minerals as needed. Especially if you are unfamiliar with your H20 chemistry. I use 5.2 stabilizer and Gypsum (~0.5 tablespoon) as a base. If I want, I can add calcium sulfate to "burtonize" my beer. A pH of 5.2 is the best for the diversity of enzyme activity, suppressing bacteria and helping the fungus during metabolism as well.

 

[gbx]

Couple things: You could get centennial but not cascade?!?!?!? Centennial around here is about as rare as seeing bigfoot these days. ...and head over to the brew science forum to find countless threads of 5.2 stabilizer hate.

...and...

What is the ABV on the hobgobblin bottles you get in florida?
What did you use for malts?


...I just moved this weekend. Was thinking about the CYBI well's bombardier or something from the IPA book but I think this might be the first brew of the new house.

 

[Dr. Francois]

On the alcohol disparity issue, is it possible the difference in ABV and ABW accounts for it? I thought ABW was a cruel pseudo-formula invented for US states with too many Baptists, but perhaps it is used in the UK, too?

http://www.beertutor.com/tools/abv_calculator.shtml

The numbers don't line up exactly, but it could explain a full point drop in reported versus labled alcohol content. Kind of like 3.2% beer (ABW, grocery store beer in some states) is actually 4% ABV.

 

[jakegreen58]

Couple things: You could get centennial but not cascade?!?!?!? Centennial around here is about as rare as seeing bigfoot these days. ...and head over to the brew science forum to find countless threads of 5.2 stabilizer hate.

...and...

What is the ABV on the hobgobblin bottles you get in florida?
What did you use for malts?


...I just moved this weekend. Was thinking about the CYBI well's bombardier or something from the IPA book but I think this might be the first brew of the new house.

I used 10 lbs of Simpson's Golden Promise , 1 Lbs Crystal 80L, 0.5 Lbs Chocolate Malt and 1 lb of Cane Sugar. Not sure why now I used centennial instead of Cascade, but for hops replacements I had to use Less Styrian Goldings then the recipe called for and I had to use US fuggles instead of UK fuggles. I may have forgotten that I was out of Cascade and had to sub on the fly.

About the ABV on Hobgoblin, I am not sure. I have never looked.

 

[air805ronin]

I'm just going to throw in a couple of tidbits as a guy who's toured the Wychwood Brewery about 10 times. I didn't listen to the podcast yet, but I wanted to share some info on one of my favorite beers.

First off, is it possible his recipe is geared towards the draft hobgoblin? That can account for a few things.

A. There is a different in Alcohol content between draft and bottled Hobgoblin. They made the change due to legal issues in England. Draft is roughly 4.6% and the bottle runs at 5.2%. When you do the tour, they highlight this by pouring you samples of both so you can see the difference between the flavors. You can taste the difference is quite evident.

B. Draft Hobgoblin will carry a lot less of the oxidation issues, and is usually served fairly fresh so the hop flavors don't go anywhere. It tastes worlds apart from the flavor of bottles we get here in the U.S. See if there is somewhere nearby with hobgoblin on tap. I'm lucky enough to have a British pub downtown.

C. Its weird to see any sugar at all on the list. When you do the tour they show you the different kinds of malt that go into Hobgoblin and you get to taste them. They didn't highlight a use of any adjuncts at all, nor did I see any. Just sacks of malt. (disregard, its a make up to try to help with the difference between their commercial setup and a homebrew setup)

D. I don't know about hops, but do remember them adding hops at the start of the boil and at the end, and they get removed during the whirlpool separating the wort from the trub. I cannot remember if they add any hops during fermentation. They do for other beers but I'm not sure about Hobgoblin.

I got dragged on the tour a lot because my air force buddies couldn't find the brewery without help.

Edit: Also, you should be aware that they had open fermentation vessels. I think they are open air all the time.

 

[adam01]

Wow! Someone who has tasted the unoxidized version. So is there a lot of hop flavor like the CYBI version?
How sweet is it? I'm sure the bottles we have here are oxidized ( sherry taste) and you get none of that.

 

[air805ronin]

It should not be overtly hoppy. It should have a sweetness to it and an almost nutty flavor caused by the darker malts and the hops working in unison..

 

[adam01]

The CYBI version has a bright hop aroma. I was thinking of reducing the arms and flavor hops in the next batch to be more in balance with the malt.

 

[fishersfirst]

Hi folks,

I'm a brewer based in Aus but lived in the Uk for a number of years. I listened to the Podcast on BN with keen interest recently, as I drank both the bottled beer and draft versions quite frequently.

Here are my musings on the make-up of the recipe based on hearing the head brewer as well as my own experience of the flavour of the beer itself having drank it many times.

OG: 1.046 FG: 1.012
Abv: 4.6%
IBU'S : 26
Colour: 25-30 SRM
Mash 60mins at 67C (153F)

Grain bill:

Pale Uk ale malt : 89%
Crystal 80L (150EBC) : 8%
Chocolate 450L : 3%

The brewer mentioned less than 1% brewing sugar, but this was only due to them not being able to fit enough grains into their mashing vats which were at this point full to the brim

Hops:

Equal amounts of EKG and Fuggles added at 80C (176F) FWH approx 0.5oz of each based on a 5.5gal batch size
Styrian Golding 0.75 oz and Cascade 0.15 oz at 15 mins

I plan to do this with US-04 yeast in a few weeks time and will report back!

 

[fishersfirst]

Hi folks,

I'm a brewer based in Aus but lived in the Uk for a number of years. I listened to the Podcast on BN with keen interest recently, as I drank both the bottled beer and draft versions quite frequently.

Here are my musings on the make-up of the recipe based on hearing the head brewer as well as my own experience of the flavour of the beer itself having drank it many times.

OG: 1.046 FG: 1.012
Abv: 4.6%
IBU'S : 26
Colour: 25-30 SRM
Mash 60mins at 67C (153F)

Grain bill:

Pale Uk ale malt : 89%
Crystal 80L (150EBC) : 8%
Chocolate 450L : 3%

The brewer mentioned less than 1% brewing sugar, but this was only due to them not being able to fit enough grains into their mashing vats which were at this point full to the brim

Hops:

Equal amounts of EKG and Fuggles added at 80C (176F) FWH approx 0.5oz of each based on a 5.5gal batch size
Styrian Golding 0.75 oz and Cascade 0.15 oz at 15 mins

I plan to do this with US-04 yeast in a few weeks time and will report back!

Edit: I'm of the opinion that the perceived bitterness of the beer is actually above 30 IBU's, as opposed to the 26 IBU's stated by the brewer.
Again, this is just my perception.

 

[gbx]

Hi folks,

I'm a brewer based in Aus but lived in the Uk for a number of years. I listened to the Podcast on BN with keen interest recently, as I drank both the bottled beer and draft versions quite frequently.

Here are my musings on the make-up of the recipe based on hearing the head brewer as well as my own experience of the flavour of the beer itself having drank it many times.

OG: 1.046 FG: 1.012
Abv: 4.6%
IBU'S : 26
Colour: 25-30 SRM
Mash 60mins at 67C (153F)

Grain bill:

Pale Uk ale malt : 89%
Crystal 80L (150EBC) : 8%
Chocolate 450L : 3%

The brewer mentioned less than 1% brewing sugar, but this was only due to them not being able to fit enough grains into their mashing vats which were at this point full to the brim

Hops:

Equal amounts of EKG and Fuggles added at 80C (176F) FWH approx 0.5oz of each based on a 5.5gal batch size
Styrian Golding 0.75 oz and Cascade 0.15 oz at 15 mins

I plan to do this with US-04 yeast in a few weeks time and will report back!

You are scaling back the styrian based off of the interview or your own experience with the cask brew? Not judging, just wondering. Maybe its just me but I kinda feel jamil just isn't into the show like he used to be and it wouldn't surprise me if his recipe formulation was in error. I don't really agree with the assumption that a 15min addition = a whirlpool addition. If the goal is to clone something, why not just do a whirlpool addition?

...but I don't think Jamils expertise is in british brewing anyways - ie discussion about partigyle on the fuller's show and invert sugar discussion on the meantime and well's shows

 

[fishersfirst]

You are scaling back the styrian based off of the interview or your own experience with the cask brew? Not judging, just wondering. Maybe its just me but I kinda feel jamil just isn't into the show like he used to be and it wouldn't surprise me if his recipe formulation was in error. I don't really agree with the assumption that a 15min addition = a whirlpool addition. If the goal is to clone something, why not just do a whirlpool addition?

...but I don't think Jamils expertise is in british brewing anyways - ie discussion about partigyle on the fuller's show and invert sugar discussion on the meantime and well's shows

Having not listened to Jamil's show before, I can't comment.

About the late addition of Styrian Golding, I'm not that sure that the addition of 'a lot' of hops at flameout (whirlpool) is accurate/ perhaps misleading.
Obviously I'm not the brewer or an expert, but the brewer described adding quite a lot of the Styrian and Cascade in the whirlpool.
That said, he also described the OG of 1.046 as 'nice and high'
By home brewing terms, we wouldn't normally call that high, this makes me wonder if the 'lot' of late hops is actually a that high.

English ales do not traditionally add as much late hops as American.
The amount of aroma you're getting in an actual Hobgoblin is IMHO not all that noticeable by American standards, it's a lot more subtle.

If the late addition is indeed at flameout, I'd expect no more than an ounce based on a 5 gal brew. (Styrian)

This is just my opinion, like I said, I'll brew it and see how I think it compares.

 

[adam01]

The amount of aroma you're getting in an actual Hobgoblin is IMHO not all that noticeable by American standards,

Using the 35g / 8g whirlpool addition of styrian/cascade at 15mins will give you a very noticably bright aroma (I added them at flameout, for 15 mins. )

So I wonder what a more moderate (balanced) addition should be ? 50% 70% ? Or add them during boiling ?

 

[gbx]

alright...i'm just trying a gravity sample of sarah hughes ruby dark mild (OG 1.055, 75% Golden Promise, 25% Baird's C70-80....9lbs GP, 3lbs crystal!!!!) that I brewed on new years day. Still a lot of diacetyl but it tastes way closer to the bottles of hobgoblin we get here than the clone brew. I think the key might be increasing the crystal malt. I'm gonna go up to a 1.5 lbs next time and see what it does.

 

[adam01]

Well, its time to brew this again. Has anyone else done it recently ?

I'm going to scale back the final addition of hops - there was too much aroma and
hop flavor in the beer. But how much to scale it back - 1/2? 1/4 ?

 

[DSmith]

I'm just polishing off a store bought version and some things I noticed:

The bottle says the ABV is 5.2. I put a drop on the refractometer and it reads 6brix. I think the OG would have to be around 1.048 and an FG of 1.009 to get that reading with 5.2%ABV. It doesn't taste that dry. I think I remember the brewer saying the alcohol was 4.3% and it had a FG in the 1.012 range? That is probably the cask version. What is the ABV on the bottles people get in the US?

Reviving an old post.

I repeated this with a US imported Hobgoblin and got 6.6% Brix on a calibrated refractometer. The bottle doesn't list ABV, but assuming it's 5.2% per the brewery website, the OG = 1.051 abd FG = 1.011. I'm sure there's some error involved with measuring this way, but the FG is in the range stated in the interview and OG is about 5 gravity points higher than the cask version.

 

[DSmith]

English color units are x2 North American numbers, so 75L is pretty much 150 EBC.

Continuing to reserecting this thread...finally getting to brew a Hobgoblin based on a mix of Orfy's Hobgoblin II recipe, the CYBI recipe & the interview with the brewer on the CYBI Hobgoblin show.

The brewer on the CYBI show stated 150 crystal malt (EBC, mentioned later in the interview). That's 60 Lovibond malt, Simpson's (Medium) Crystal Malt (http://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/media/5935/product_range_uk_web.pdf). The 80L crystal malt might have been an interpurtation error with SRM & Lovibond (Lovibond = EBC x 0,375 + 0,56).

Here is the recipe I'm brewing this weekend:
Batch Size (Gal): 6.0
Total Grain (Lbs): 11.11
Anticipated Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043
Anticipated OG: 1.052
Anticipated SRM: 16
Anticipated IBU: 20 Tinseth (1.0 Concentration Factor, 0.7 factor applied for FWH)
Mash Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Est Final Gravity: 1.011
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 %

Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.0 lb Crisp Maris Otter (90% of grainbill)
0.889 lb Simpson’s Medium Crystal Malt, 60L (8% of grainbill)
0.222 lb Simpson’s Chocolate Malt (2% of grainbill)

15 g Styrian Goldings (pellet, 5.0 %, FWH)
15 g Fuggles (pellet, 4.5 %, FWH)
15 g Styrian Goldings (pellet, 5.0 %, 30 min)
15 g Fuggles (pellet, 4.5 %, 30 min)
15 g Styrian Goldings (pellet, 5.0 %, 0 min)
15 g Fuggles (pellet, 4.5 %, 0 min)

Mash at 153F for 90 min, 1 qt/lb
Wyeast 1028 London Ale
Pitch at 60F, natural rise to 68F, temperature controlled at 68F
Carbonate to 2.2 vol CO2

 

[Kuhndog]

Subscribed - let us know how this one turns out....very interested in doing this one.

 

[Bithead]

I'd like to hear also. I've made several attempts at this using Orfy's various recipes. No success yet. Time for another try.

 

[DSmith]

I brewed the recipe on post #54. Mash pH at room temp was 5.35, OG was 1.054 instead of 1.052, cooled to 61F and pitched in the yeast from a starter. I think I'll hold it at 66F and finish with a raise to 68F/70F at the end of fermentation.

The shop <1 mile from my house got all the Wychwood beers a few months ago and that's when I became aware of this ale and the different homebrew recipes. Bitters have been a big focus of my brewing and I'll compare what I brewed to the bottled Hobgoblin.

 

[gbx]

This thread just inspired me to pour a pint of my dark ruby mild (9# golden promise, 3# bairds C75) that I brewed on new years day. It now has a similar "english malt" character that the bottled hobgoblin has. Next time I rebrew this one I'm going to use the CYBI recipe but double the crystal malt. I'm going to stick with the first wort fuggles and goldings and whirlpool styrians and cascade as that is what the brewer said (and it tastes awesome) ...and I'm definitely going to save a few bottles to try at 6months and see if they have aged into "clones"

 

[Kuhndog]

The brewer on the CYBI show stated 150 crystal malt (EBC, mentioned later in the interview). That's 60 Lovibond malt, Simpson's (Medium) Crystal Malt (http://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/media/5935/product_range_uk_web.pdf). The 80L crystal malt might have been an interpurtation error with SRM & Lovibond (Lovibond = EBC x 0,375 + 0,56).

That's interesting that you say that because the CYBI part had them using 360grams of 75-80 English Crystal. It was the episode in which they interviewed the head brewer at Wychwood...who did say it was 150 EBC. Some places say SRM is half of EBC...others say something different. I hope that it's in the 60L like you list above only because I really like 60L...not so much 80+ (too raisiny for my taste).

I do agree with you - I think it's 60L because the Head Brewer at Wychwood says they use Simpsons for the colored malts....and the only thing Simpsons has in the 150 range is their regular "Crystal" which is 50-60L...which is nice caramel malt...literally the sweet spot.

 

[DSmith]

That's interesting that you say that because the CYBI part had them using 360grams of 75-80 English Crystal. It was the episode in which they interviewed the head brewer at Wychwood...who did say it was 150 EBC. Some places say SRM is half of EBC...others say something different. I hope that it's in the 60L like you list above only because I really like 60L...not so much 80+ (too raisiny for my taste).

I do agree with you - I think it's 60L because the Head Brewer at Wychwood says they use Simpsons for the colored malts....and the only thing Simpsons has in the 150 range is their regular "Crystal" which is 50-60L...which is nice caramel malt...literally the sweet spot.

SRM is half EBC. Lovibond is not, I listed the formula and checked by converting Simpson's dual unit malt chart in the Simpson's link from EBC to Lovibond. All the Simpson's crystal malts are fantastic, it seems like this recipe should be in the 60L range per the CYBI interview.

Here's an IPA with Simpson's 60L and a English Pale ale with 80L as the only color malts in the recipes as 5% of the grainbill (pics below). I substitute them in when appropiate to replace American (Briess) crystal malts. As you stated, the 80L version is much more raisiny. The 60L is more sugary.

That CYBI interview with the brewer is confusing by:
1. He stated the color of the chocolate malt (from simpson's) as 1200EBC. That's the same as Simpson's Black Malt & Roasted Barley. I think the Simpson't chocolate malt is correct, instead of matching the ingredient by the color stated on the interview.

2. Cascade in the whirlpool is consistent with the website info for King Goblin. It's possible the website information for Hobgoblin is not complete. If you look at King Goblin, they omit the base malt from the website info, but include it in Hobgoblin... Hobgoblin is also descibed as "slight citrus", so Cascade may be an unlisted ingredient. I didn't think the commercial version was defined by the hops, definitely not very bitter, so I thought it would be more interesting comparing Orfy's Hobgoblin II hopping to the commerical beer than the CYBI hopping and adjust from there.